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In the LDS church, is the blood of Christ Jesus insufficient?

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  • In the LDS church, is the blood of Christ Jesus insufficient?

    The following is from a Facebook article, so I cannot link to it, but it does give a reference:

    The Mormon Jesus is not sufficient to be our Savior, (“What the Mormons think of Christ,” p. 22), as it reads, "Christians speak often of the blood of Christ and its cleansing power. Much that is believed and taught on this subject, however, is such utter nonsense and so palpably false that to believe it is to lose one’s salvation. For instance, many believe or pretend to believe that if we confess Christ with our lips and avow that we accept him as our personal savior, we are thereby saved. They say that his blood, without any other act than mere belief, makes us clean.”
    The "What the Mormons Think of Jesus" is the only reference given for this quote. It is a booklet by Bruce McConkie.

    And yet what does Paul write?

    Romans 10:8-10 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 [a]that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, [b]resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, [c]resulting in salvation.
    Yet, without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins. And Jesus' shed blood purifies us from our sin, when we believe and trust in Him only for salvation, great and free:

    Hebrews 9:14

    how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
    And

    (I John 1:6-9, NASB) God Is Light

    5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    So, is this pamphlet accurate? Does the LDS church teach that faith in Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice for our sins isn't enough to save us fully? It appears to be so, as the following from President Kimball states:

    "One of the most FALLACIOUS doctrines originated BY *SATAN* [!!] and propounded by MAN is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation"
    - 12th Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p.206; cited in the official LDS/Mormon Church's The Book of Mormon Student Manual, religion 121 and 122., p. 36, 1996 edition.
    Of course, Kimball may be referring to FULL "salvation" which, in the LDS church, is exaltation to Godhood and to become creators of worlds. But nowhere is this "exaltation" as described in Mormon doctrines found in the Bible. Instead, Jesus says:

    Matthew 25:33-34 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

    34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
    ONE KINGDOM--one, not three. The Kingdom of God/Heaven. Which is being with Jesus forever in heaven.

    John 14:3 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
    One place, not three, or many. ONE. And heaven is being with Jesus forever.





    "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
    "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
    "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
    "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
    "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

  • #2
    Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
    The following is from a Facebook article, so I cannot link to it, but it does give a reference:

    The Mormon Jesus is not sufficient to be our Savior, (“What the Mormons think of Christ,” p. 22), as it reads, "Christians speak often of the blood of Christ and its cleansing power. Much that is believed and taught on this subject, however, is such utter nonsense and so palpably false that to believe it is to lose one’s salvation. For instance, many believe or pretend to believe that if we confess Christ with our lips and avow that we accept him as our personal savior, we are thereby saved. They say that his blood, without any other act than mere belief, makes us clean.”
    The "What the Mormons Think of Jesus" is the only reference given for this quote. It is a booklet by Bruce McConkie.
    "pretend to believe"?
    "mere belief"?

    Look how McConkie misrepresents what Christians actually believe.
    We proclaim FAITH in Christ (which is trust), not "mere belief" (which could mean nothing more than believing that he existed).

    If we misrepresented Mormonism this way, Mormons would throw the biggest hissy-fit imaginable, and we'd never hear the end of it.


    And btw, why is McConkie (and as we will see, Kimball, as well as other Mormons) attacking Christianity?
    According to NRA-jeff's quote of C.S. Lewis, that must mean that THEIR Mormon faith is in really BAD shape, right?

    Nope... Even (especially) LDS leaders know their doctrines are false and indefensible, which is why they can't defend them, and have to instead try to attack Christianity.

    So, is this pamphlet accurate? Does the LDS church teach that faith in Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice for our sins isn't enough to save us fully? It appears to be so, as the following from President Kimball states:
    "One of the most FALLACIOUS doctrines originated BY *SATAN* [!!] and propounded by MAN is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation"
    - 12th Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p.206; cited in the official LDS/Mormon Church's The Book of Mormon Student Manual, religion 121 and 122., p. 36, 1996 edition.
    More attacking of Christianity, by trying to attribute it to "Satan".

    And again, reference to "belief in Jesus Christ alone", rather than actual FAITH.

    ONE KINGDOM--one, not three. The Kingdom of God/Heaven. Which is being with Jesus forever in heaven.

    One place, not three, or many. ONE. And heaven is being with Jesus forever.
    Yep...

    The New Testament is Kryptonite to Mormons and Mormonism.

    All the "not by works" passages...
    All the "only one God" passages...

    No wonder the Mormons have to throw the entire Bible under the bus...
    Even though they try to use the handful of verses which they think support their false teachings...
    "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
    but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
    -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks, Theo. Very well put.

      So, Paul was from Satan, eh?

      Last edited by Bonnie; 12-04-18, 07:25 PM.
      "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
      "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
      "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
      "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
      "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post
        ...And btw, why is McConkie (and as we will see, Kimball, as well as other Mormons) attacking Christianity?
        According to NRA-jeff's quote of C.S. Lewis, that must mean that THEIR Mormon faith is in really BAD shape, right?
        ......
        You just misrepresented what Lewis said.

        When the day comes that you can show that the religious conversation of McConkie (and Kimball, and any other Mormons you're accusing) consisted CHIEFLY of attacking other people's religious beliefs, then you may have a valid point.

        Until then, well, you don't.
        ...whenever a person's religious conversation dwells... on the faults of other people's religions, he is in a bad condition-C.S. Lewis

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
          The following is from a Facebook article, so I cannot link to it, but it does give a reference:

          The "What the Mormons Think of Jesus" is the only reference given for this quote. It is a booklet by Bruce McConkie.

          And yet what does Paul write?

          Yet, without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins. And Jesus' shed blood purifies us from our sin, when we believe and trust in Him only for salvation, great and free:

          And

          So, is this pamphlet accurate? Does the LDS church teach that faith in Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice for our sins isn't enough to save us fully? It appears to be so, as the following from President Kimball states:

          Of course, Kimball may be referring to FULL "salvation" which, in the LDS church, is exaltation to Godhood and to become creators of worlds. But nowhere is this "exaltation" as described in Mormon doctrines found in the Bible. Instead, Jesus says:

          ONE KINGDOM--one, not three. The Kingdom of God/Heaven. Which is being with Jesus forever in heaven.

          One place, not three, or many. ONE. And heaven is being with Jesus forever.
          Bonnie--I'm not understanding what your point is here. I would be glad to discuss it--but it's confusing, IMO--in the way you have couched it. I have no idea what you are attempting to convey.

          So--what is your specific point?

          Comment


          • #6
            Dberrie, it should be patently obvious, from the OP and especially the subject line, what "point" I am making. Theo had no problem figuring out. So, you should be able too, as well.
            "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
            "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
            "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
            "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
            "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
              Dberrie, it should be patently obvious, from the OP and especially the subject line, what "point" I am making. Theo had no problem figuring out. So, you should be able too, as well.
              It’s not just dberrie. I don’t see it either.

              The only thing I see is that you posted somebody’s opinion that Mormon theology concerning Christ is wrong. You didn’t even, as far as I can tell, delve into what particular doctrines were wrong or were wrong in what way.

              If I grasped your point correctly then we’ll stipulate to it. Lots of people think our theology is wrong. More specifically, lots of Christians think our theology concerning the Savior is wrong.

              That usually leads to a discussion about the particulars of what they think we get wrong and wrong in what way. If the conversation is adversarial it looks a lot like every conversational thread on these boards. If it is not adversarial it usually leads to better mutual respect and understanding, then to closer relationships, eventually to love for one another, and often to a conversion and a Mormon baptism (it’s extremely rare that the conversion goes the other way).

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by JustaLurker View Post

                It’s not just dberrie. I don’t see it either.

                The only thing I see is that you posted somebody’s opinion that Mormon theology concerning Christ is wrong. You didn’t even, as far as I can tell, delve into what particular doctrines were wrong or were wrong in what way.

                If I grasped your point correctly then we’ll stipulate to it. Lots of people think our theology is wrong. More specifically, lots of Christians think our theology concerning the Savior is wrong.

                That usually leads to a discussion about the particulars of what they think we get wrong and wrong in what way. If the conversation is adversarial it looks a lot like every conversational thread on these boards. If it is not adversarial it usually leads to better mutual respect and understanding, then to closer relationships, eventually to love for one another, and often to a conversion and a Mormon baptism (it’s extremely rare that the conversion goes the other way).
                It is in the subject line. It isn't about your theology being wrong in general, but in one specific place where it is wildly wrong. And WHY. And I quoted Bible verses that show that Mormon doctrine in this area is incorrect.

                Please restate your third line. I think it was the victim of auto-correct.
                Last edited by Bonnie; 12-05-18, 03:11 PM.
                "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

                  It is in the subject line. It isn't about your theology being wrong in general, but in one specific place where it is wildly wrong. And WHY. And I quoted Bible verses that show that Mormon doctrine in this area is incorrect.

                  Please restate your third line. I think it was the victim of auto-correct.
                  The third line said that we are willing to stipulate to your point if your point is as I understood it. Stipulate to it means that we acknowledge that your point is valid and correct. There are lots of people that think our theology is wrong.

                  You did quote us several bible verses but that’s not sufficient. You might want to enunciate what Mormon doctrine you find unacceptable and what you find unacceptable about it. Then you provide the Bible verses to support your statements. If all you do is quote the Bible verses all you’ll get from us is a “thank you, we believe those verses, they are our scripture as well.”

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by JustaLurker View Post

                    The third line said that we are willing to stipulate to your point if your point is as I understood it. Stipulate to it means that we acknowledge that your point is valid and correct. There are lots of people that think our theology is wrong.

                    You did quote us several bible verses but that’s not sufficient. You might want to enunciate what Mormon doctrine you find unacceptable and what you find unacceptable about it. Then you provide the Bible verses to support your statements. If all you do is quote the Bible verses all you’ll get from us is a “thank you, we believe those verses, they are our scripture as well.”
                    Thank you. But it is in the subject line, what my point is.

                    So, Mormons believe what those Bible verses I quoted say...do they? Did the Mormon leaders I quoted also believe those verses?

                    "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                    "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                    "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                    "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                    "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                      It is in the subject line. It isn't about your theology being wrong in general, but in one specific place where it is wildly wrong. And WHY.
                      Which is????

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

                        Thank you. But it is in the subject line, what my point is.

                        So, Mormons believe what those Bible verses I quoted say...do they? Did the Mormon leaders I quoted also believe those verses?
                        I saw only a single quote from a Mormon leader, Spencer Kimball, and I can categorically state that I agree with his statement and we both agree with the Bible verses you provided.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                          ONE KINGDOM--one, not three. The Kingdom of God/Heaven. Which is being with Jesus forever in heaven.

                          One place, not three, or many. ONE. And heaven is being with Jesus forever.
                          Bonnie--the LDS believe the kingdom of God is one Kingdom. One place. That is where God and His Son dwell--and where eternal life exists for mankind.

                          How does that exclude that a place of damnation also exists eternally?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                            Which is????
                            Read it for yourself. I am not spoon-feeding you.
                            "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                            "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                            "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                            "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                            "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                              Bonnie--the LDS believe the kingdom of God is one Kingdom. One place. That is where God and His Son dwell--and where eternal life exists for mankind.

                              How does that exclude that a place of damnation also exists eternally?
                              I never said a place of damnation does NOT exist. Show me where I wrote that. You are setting up a straw man.

                              So, you are saying your church teaches ONE Kingdom--right? But with three different levels--Celestial, Telestial, and Terrestrial. Is that it? But that isn't what your church teaches:

                              https://www.lds.org/topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng

                              There are three kingdoms of glory: the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, and the telestial kingdom. The glory we inherit will depend on the depth of our conversion, expressed by our obedience to the Lord’s commandments. It will depend on the manner in which we have “received the testimony of Jesus” (D&C 76:51; see also D&C 76:74, 79, 101).

                              So what I wrote and quoted in my OP still applies--Jesus never mentioned three different Kingdoms. He talked about the "Kingdom of God" and the "Kingdom of heaven." ONE Kingdom, not three. And never once mentioned three levels or named them, and who goes where after death.
                              "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                              "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                              "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                              "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                              "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                              Comment

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