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Earning Grace

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  • Earning Grace

    Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
    The only true "grace" in Mormonism is bodily resurrection to immortality and Jesus' paying for Adam's sin. But all other "grace" is dependent upon what they do and how they do all of their "works." THAT grace must be "earned."

    Yet "earned grace" is an oxymoron" if ever there was one....
    So--is this an example of "earning" grace?

    Acts 2:38--- King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Bonnie--the scriptures testify God gives His grace unto life--as a personal reception--based on our obedience to Him.(faith in Jesus Christ)


  • #2
    Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

    So--is this an example of "earning" grace?

    Acts 2:38--- King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Bonnie--the scriptures testify God gives His grace unto life--as a personal reception--based on our obedience to Him.(faith in Jesus Christ)
    Why would you think the above was "an example of 'earning' grace"?!

    Sadly, you ask lots of nonsense questions, but you never get around to ACTUALLY DEFENDING your false theology.
    I think the reason why is obvious.

    Once again:

    Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    No mention of "law".
    No explanation by you of what you think "not of yourselves" means.

    Why?
    Because this passage is INCOMPATIBLE with Mormonism.

    Tit. 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    No mention of "law".

    And no explanation of how Mormons understand this. Why not?
    Because this passage is INCOMPATIBLE with Mormonism.

    2 Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    No mention of "law".

    And no explanation of how Mormons understand this. Why not?
    Because this passage is INCOMPATIBLE with Mormonism.

    Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    No mention of "law".

    And no explanation of how Mormons understand this. Why not?
    Because this passage is INCOMPATIBLE with Mormonism.
    (In fact, that's why Joseph Smith had to try to REWRITE it!)

    Rom.9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

    No mention of "law".

    And no explanation of how Mormons understand this. Why not?
    Because this passage is INCOMPATIBLE with Mormonism.

    Rom. 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

    No mention of "law".

    And no explanation of how Mormons understand this. Why not?
    Because this passage is INCOMPATIBLE with Mormonism.
    "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
    but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
    -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--is this an example of "earning" grace?

      Acts 2:38--- King James Version (KJV)
      38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

      Bonnie--the scriptures testify God gives His grace unto life--as a personal reception--based on our obedience to Him.(faith in Jesus Christ)
      Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post
      Why would you think the above was "an example of 'earning' grace"?!
      Because whenever I post scriptures which have God extending His grace to them which obey Him--and do His work--there is usually a cry of "earning grace".

      So--do you consider God extending His salvational grace to them which walk in His light--"earning grace"?

      1 John 1:7--- King James Version (KJV)
      7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post
        Sadly, you ask lots of nonsense questions, but you never get around to ACTUALLY DEFENDING your false theology.
        I think the reason why is obvious.

        Once again:

        Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

        No mention of "law".
        No explanation by you of what you think "not of yourselves" means.

        Why?
        Because this passage is INCOMPATIBLE with Mormonism.

        Tit. 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

        No mention of "law".

        And no explanation of how Mormons understand this. Why not?
        Because this passage is INCOMPATIBLE with Mormonism.

        2 Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

        No mention of "law".

        And no explanation of how Mormons understand this. Why not?
        Because this passage is INCOMPATIBLE with Mormonism.

        Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

        No mention of "law".

        And no explanation of how Mormons understand this. Why not?
        Because this passage is INCOMPATIBLE with Mormonism.
        (In fact, that's why Joseph Smith had to try to REWRITE it!)

        Rom.9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

        No mention of "law".

        And no explanation of how Mormons understand this. Why not?
        Because this passage is INCOMPATIBLE with Mormonism.

        Rom. 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

        No mention of "law".

        And no explanation of how Mormons understand this. Why not?
        Because this passage is INCOMPATIBLE with Mormonism.
        Theo--please explain to us how you believe any of those verses are incompatible to LDS theology. I don't find anything in there which violates LDS theology, but I do find something in the Biblical text which violates the theology preached here:

        Acts 2:38--- King James Version (KJV)
        38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

        The LDS believe one is saved BY God's grace--not by works.

        The scriptures testify God extends His salvational grace to them which obey Him--and that, the grace of God---is the means of their salvation unto life.

        The question is--who does God extend this grace to?

        Hebrews 5:9 ---King James Version (KJV)
        9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post
          Because whenever I post scriptures which have God extending His grace to them which obey Him--and do His work--there is usually a cry of "earning grace".
          That's because you SEEM to interpret that passage as being "causative", and you refuse to explain why you ASSUME causation in that passage, especially in light of all the other passages which CONTRADICT a causative relationship (Eph. 2:8-9, 2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 3:5, Rom. 4:5, Rom. 9:11,16, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc.)

          I've REPEATEDLY asked you if you understand the difference between "causation" and "correlation", and you repeatedly IGNORE my question.

          Why is that, I wonder?

          So--do you consider God extending His salvational grace to them which walk in His light--"earning grace"?

          1 John 1:7--- King James Version (KJV)
          7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
          If you misinterpret that verse, as you do, and ASSUME a "causative" relationship", then that WOULD be "earning grace" which would be an oxymoron, since grace CAN'T be "earned".

          Now please answer question, and stop RUNNING AWAY from it.
          Last edited by 4Him; 12-06-18, 02:37 PM. Reason: No violation
          "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
          --------------------------------------------------------------------------
          "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
          but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
          -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post
            That's because you SEEM to interpret that passage as being "causative", and you refuse to explain why you ASSUME causation in that passage, especially in light of all the other passages which CONTRADICT a causative relationship (Eph. 2:8-9, 2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 3:5, Rom. 4:5, Rom. 9:11,16, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc.)

            I've REPEATEDLY asked you if you understand the difference between "causation" and "correlation", and you repeatedly IGNORE my question.

            Why is that, I wonder?.
            Because I'm not interested in your explanation of things which have nothing to do with the Biblical witness.

            The Biblical text testifies God extends His grace unto them which obey Him--and walk in His light:

            1 John 1:7--- King James Version (KJV)
            7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

            What is there you believe somehow covers that up--or cancels that out? That you have some special pleading for your definition of "causation and correlation"?

            Theo--the LDS believe, and so do some scholars--that using a cover and cancel method of scriptures not only does not make our point--but renders the Biblical text an unreliable source of truth.

            The LDS believe when Paul uses the terms "works", "works of the law", "the law"--that is a particular reference to certain rituals found under the Mosaic Law--not a reference to obedience to the gospel.

            When one accepts that--then the scriptures harmonize, IE---

            1 Corinthians 7:19-- King James Version (KJV)
            19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

            That is an example of Paul's "works" verses obedience to the gospel.
            Last edited by dberrie2000; 12-06-18, 02:54 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post
              Theo--please explain to us how you believe any of those verses are incompatible to LDS theology. I don't find anything in there which violates LDS theology,
              <sigh>

              I'm sorry that you seem unable to understand, but I am happy to explain it to you YET AGAIN. It involves a number of passages that you constantly RUN AWAY from, since they contradict Mormonism. Or else you look for excuses not to discuss those passages.

              Here's what Mormonism teaches (straight out of the Book of Mormon, in case you were not aware):

              2 Nephi 25:23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
              So clearly, according to Mormonism, there are TWO requirements for "reconciliation":

              1) "all you can do"
              2) God's subsequent grace

              As an aside, this leads to a number of FURTHER problems:

              a) Is this "reconciliation" presented as mere resurrection (ie. "salvation"), or is it godhood (ie. "exaltation")?

              b) It denies the very meaning of grace (which is UNmerited), by making it suddenly MERITED (upon "all you can do");

              c) Nobody has done "all they CAN do". No matter how much any Mormon has done, they COULD have done a little bit more. So in practice, NO Mormon can ever be "reconciled" to God.



              2 Nephi 25:23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
              Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

              Tit. 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

              2 Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

              Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

              Rom.9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

              Rom. 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

              Or to rephrase:
              .
              Mormonism Bible/Christianity
              "after all you can do" (2 Nephi 25:23) "NOT of yourselves" (Eph. 2:8)
              "NOT by works" (Eph. 2:9)
              "after all you can do" (2 Nephi 25:23) "NOT by works" (Tit. 3:5)
              "after all you can do" (2 Nephi 25:23) "NOT according to our works" (2 Tim. 1:9)
              "after all you can do" (2 Nephi 25:23) "to him that worketh NOT" (Rom. 4:5)
              "after all you can do" (2 Nephi 25:23) "NOR of him that runneth" (Rom. 9:16)
              "after all you can do" (2 Nephi 25:23) "NO more of works" (Rom. 11:6)
              .
              If you can't see the problem, I don't know what else I can say to explain it to you.


              The LDS believe one is saved BY God's grace--not by works.
              Then you deny 2 Nephi 25:23.
              Fascinating.


              The question is--who does God extend this grace to?

              Hebrews 5:9 ---King James Version (KJV)
              9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
              Why do you errantly ASSUME "causation"?!
              "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
              --------------------------------------------------------------------------
              "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
              but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
              -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post
                Then you deny 2 Nephi 25:23.
                2 Nephi 25:23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

                That has one saved by grace. The "after all we can do" is who that grace goes to.

                Could you explain for us what difference you see between being saved after all one can do--and being saved after one endures to the end?

                Matthew 10:22 ---King James Version (KJV)
                22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                  2 Nephi 25:23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

                  That has one saved by grace. The "after all we can do" is who that grace goes to.
                  <sigh>

                  You're simply playing word-games, now...

                  That's like saying:

                  Bob: "That convenience store is giving away free chocolate bars."
                  Fred: "What do you mean? You have to pay $1.50 for them, they're not free!"
                  Bob: "No, they're free... The people who pay $1.50 are simply who the free chocolate bars go to!"

                  Could you explain for us ...
                  Well, of course I COULD....

                  But it would be a colossal waste of time, since:

                  1) I've already done so for you, at least 20 times now...

                  2) You refuse to accept correction...

                  3) You constantly RUN AWAY from Scripture which contradicts your view, so it seems incredibly unfair (EDIT) that you demand we talk about YOUR verses, but you constantly RUN AWAY from our verses.
                  Last edited by 4Him; 12-06-18, 05:08 PM.
                  "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
                  but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
                  -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post
                    You're simply playing word-games, now...
                    You didn't answer the question:

                    Could you explain for us what difference you see between being saved after all one can do--and being saved after one endures to the end?

                    Matthew 10:22 ---King James Version (KJV)
                    22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                      You didn't answer the question:

                      Could you explain for us what difference you see between being saved after all one can do--and being saved after one endures to the end?
                      Actually, I DID answer the question.
                      You simply didn't like the answer.

                      Here's the answer again:

                      Well, of course I COULD....

                      But it would be a colossal waste of time, since:

                      1) I've already done so for you, at least 20 times now...

                      2) You refuse to accept correction...

                      3) You constantly RUN AWAY from Scripture which contradicts your view, so it seems incredibly unfair (EDIT) that you demand we talk about YOUR verses, but you constantly RUN AWAY from our verses.
                      "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
                      but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
                      -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                        So--is this an example of "earning" grace?

                        Acts 2:38--- King James Version (KJV)
                        38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

                        Bonnie--the scriptures testify God gives His grace unto life--as a personal reception--based on our obedience to Him.(faith in Jesus Christ)
                        Grace is a free gift. Why would you call it earned? This is a Mormon heresy.

                        Nobody can repent and have faith unless they first have grace, the grace to repent and have faith.

                        There's your problem. You don' understand grace at all.

                        You have no remission of sins because you must first repent from being involved in the idolatry of Mormonism. Then when you have turned from Mormonism to Christ, you can be baptized as the outward sign of the inward regeneration worked by the Holy Spirit.

                        No Mormon here has done that. You cannot understand grace because you have not experienced it in your life, you or any other Mormon here.
                        Last edited by Catherine Aurelia; 12-06-18, 11:28 PM.
                        Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                          So--is this an example of "earning" grace?

                          Acts 2:38--- King James Version (KJV)
                          38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

                          Bonnie--the scriptures testify God gives His grace unto life--as a personal reception--based on our obedience to Him.(faith in Jesus Christ)
                          We are saved by grace THROUGH faith in Christ Jesus our Lord. By the time a person says "I have decided to believe in Jesus Christ" he already has the HS, since no one can say "Jesus is Lord" without Him. And no one will feel the need to repent of their sins until they come to faith in Jesus Christ, for then the HS convicts them of their sin and they can then feel the sting of that conviction, since the HS has worked saving faith in them through the Gospel message, which then gives them a heart of flesh instead of stone, that can feel that sting and lead them to repent and ask for forgiveness.
                          "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                          "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                          "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                          "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                          "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post

                            Grace is a free gift. Why would you call it earned? This is a Mormon heresy.

                            Nobody can repent and have faith unless they first have grace, the grace to repent and have faith.

                            There's your problem. You don' understand grace at all.

                            You have no remission of sins because you must first repent from being involved in the idolatry of Mormonism. Then when you have turned from Mormonism to Christ, you can be baptized as the outward sign of the inward regeneration worked by the Holy Spirit.

                            No Mormon here has done that. You cannot understand grace because you have not experienced it in your life, you or any other Mormon here.
                            You are preaching Cheap Grace. Thereís your problem. You donít understand grace at all.

                            The grace of God isnít that you have been exceptionally chosen and gifted with faith and salvation. The grace of God, which has been given freely to all mankind, is that we have the potential and the opportunity to choose the Lord and to repent of our sins and to be forgiven of them. Without the Atonement of Christ no repentance would be possible, no forgiveness could be extended.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by JustaLurker View Post

                              You are preaching Cheap Grace. Thereís your problem. You donít understand grace at all.

                              The grace of God isnít that you have been exceptionally chosen and gifted with faith and salvation. The grace of God, which has been given freely to all mankind, is that we have the potential and the opportunity to choose the Lord and to repent of our sins and to be forgiven of them. Without the Atonement of Christ no repentance would be possible, no forgiveness could be extended.
                              What does the word "grace" mean you who are so quick to call Christian grace "cheap?" Do you even know? Obviously not. Go look it up. The grace given to Christians cost Jesus Christ His life as He hung on the cross. Your response here proves once and for all that Mormons have no knowledge of the meaning of grace. They are not saved and spend their time denying the Gospel of Christ which is: "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." Mormons believe in "a" Jesus, but their "Jesus" is another. The Mormon impostor "Jesus" is nothing but a DEMON.
                              Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                              Comment

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