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  • Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

    Baptism in Water has nothing to do with salvation. It's what you do WHEN your have been born again as a symbol and a testimony. I was baptized 4 days after I was saved. It changed/added nothing (except that I DID have to change clothes afterwards).

    And Salvation isn't about "Forgiveness of Sins" at all. It's about REMOVAL OF SIN COMPLETELY because of Jesus' perfect SIN OFFERING on the Cross. (Hebrews).
    I agree Bob.

    I think people should do a study on why people got baptized in the primitive church. It's primary reason was identification...though there are other reasons.

    I also think if baptism was a requirement for salvation Paul or someone would have laid out the theology as to why it was a requirement and wrote several chapters about it.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post
      Baptism in Water has nothing to do with salvation. It's what you do WHEN you have been born again as a symbol and a testimony. I was baptized 4 days after I was saved. It changed/added nothing (except that I DID have to change clothes afterwards). And Salvation isn't about "Forgiveness of Sins" at all. It's about REMOVAL OF SIN COMPLETELY because of Jesus' perfect SIN OFFERING on the Cross. (Hebrews).

      John only preached the baptism of metaphorical repentance for the metaphorical forgiveness of sins. Okay.


      Heaven goes by favor;if it went by merit,you would stay out and your dog would go in. ~ Mark Twain

      Comment


      • Originally posted by CrowCross View Post

        I agree with YOU, Bob. I think people should do a study on why people got baptized in the primitive church. Its primary reason was identification...though there are other reasons. I also think if baptism was a requirement for salvation Paul or someone would have laid out the theology as to why it was a requirement and wrote several chapters about it.

        The "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles" also refer to John 3:5. There, the one who refuses to be baptized is to be condemned as an unbeliever, partially on the basis of what Jesus told Nicodemus... "He that, out of contempt, will not be baptized, shall be condemned as an unbeliever and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says: 'Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven.' And again: 'He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved but he that believeth not shall be damned.'" (Justin Martyr "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles," (Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 7, pg. 456-457.)
        Heaven goes by favor;if it went by merit,you would stay out and your dog would go in. ~ Mark Twain

        Comment


        • Originally posted by CrowCross View Post
          If that be the case, just as Jesus fulfilled the law in my place, paid the price on the cross in my place He was also baptized by John in my place.
          Baptism only an outward sign of an inward grace representing metaphorical repentance for the metaphorical forgiveness of sins being a fulfilment of all righteousness which Jesus did instead of me. Okay.
          Last edited by mesenja; 05-15-19, 01:21 PM.
          Heaven goes by favor;if it went by merit,you would stay out and your dog would go in. ~ Mark Twain

          Comment


          • Originally posted by mesenja View Post


            The "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles" also refer to John 3:5. There, the one who refuses to be baptized is to be condemned as an unbeliever, partially on the basis of what Jesus told Nicodemus... "He that, out of contempt, will not be baptized, shall be condemned as an unbeliever and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says: 'Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven.' And again: 'He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved but he that believeth not shall be damned.'" (Justin Martyr "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles," (Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 7, pg. 456-457.)
            Just for the record Jesus didn't tell Nicky "'Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit,"
            The KJV says...."Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

            I ask, why did you not look it up?

            As to someone refusing to be baptized for reasons of contempt I believe the point could made that that individual might not be a believer.

            The issue here is what does born of water mean? From my studies over the year I have seen 3 views. The first is your view, baptism by water.
            The second is the water mentioned here is embryonic fluid. The third view is that "water" is a figurative and metaphorical sense is referring to the the grace of God.

            You also presented "'He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved but he that believeth not shall be damned." This too is an interesting way of saying something. If you notice the second part...:"he that believeth not shall be damned.".... In other words, if you don't believe you'll be damned. Why no mention of baptism? Answer, it's not required.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by mesenja View Post

              Baptism only an outward sign of an inward grace representing metaphorical repentance for the metaphorical forgiveness of sins being a fulfilment of all righteousness which Jesus did instead of me. Okay.
              Baptism illustrates a believerís identification with Christís death, burial, and resurrection.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by mesenja View Post
                The "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles" also refers to John 3:5. There, the one who refuses to be baptized is to be condemned as an unbeliever, partially on the basis of what Jesus told Nicodemus... "He that, out of contempt, will not be baptized, shall be condemned as an unbeliever and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says: 'Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven.' And again: 'He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved but he that believeth not shall be damned.'" (Justin Martyr "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles," (Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 7, pg. 456-457.)
                Here are some more quotes by the Early Church Fathers concerning the ordinance of baptism. You made the following claim that if I made a study of why people got baptized in the primitive church then I would come to the same conclusion you have which was their primary reason for baptism was identification although you make the concession that there are other reasons. Since you were unspecific about to whom or what they identified with by baptism I assume it was with Christ and/or the church. Here are those so-called other reasons. Now prove your primary point that baptism was for identification.



                "For, if we do the will of Christ, we shall find rest; but if otherwise, then nothing shall deliver us from eternal punishment if we should disobey His commandments. . . . [W]ith what confidence shall we, if we keep not our baptism pure and undefiled, enter into the kingdom of God? Or who shall be our advocate, unless we are found having holy and righteous works?' (Second Clement 6:7)

                This class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole faith." ( IRENAEUS, Against Heresies, bk. 1, chap. 21, sec. 1, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, pg. 345.)

                "Baptism itself is a corporal act by which we are plunged into the water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from our sins" (Tertullian, Baptism 7:2)

                "This work is variously called grace, and illumination, and perfection, and washing. Washing, by which we cleanse away our sins. Grace, by which the penalties of our sins are cancelled. And illumination, by which that holy light of salvation is beheld, that is, by which we see God clearly." (Clement Instructor bk. 1, chap. 6)
                Last edited by mesenja; 05-15-19, 02:31 PM.
                Heaven goes by favor;if it went by merit,you would stay out and your dog would go in. ~ Mark Twain

                Comment


                • Originally posted by CrowCross View Post
                  Baptism illustrates a believer’s identification with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection.
                  Does it also signify only metaphorical repentance for the metaphorical forgiveness of sins?

                  Heaven goes by favor;if it went by merit,you would stay out and your dog would go in. ~ Mark Twain

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by mesenja View Post

                    [FONT=courier new]Here are some more quotes by the Early Church Fathers concerning the ordinance of baptism. You made the following claim that if I made a study of why people got baptized in the primitive church then I would come to the same conclusion you have which was their primary reason for baptism was identification although you make the concession that there are other reasons. Since you were unspecific about to whom or what they identified with by baptism I assume it was with Christ and/or the church. Here are those so-called other reasons. Now prove your primary point that baptism was for identification.
                    Other reason besides association are in fulfilling Christ commandment.

                    The theme of idenfification can be seen in various places.

                    When one is "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"...baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit...there is identification.

                    I'll stick with the bible rather than non-biblical teachings.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by mesenja View Post

                      Does it also signify only metaphorical repentance for the metaphorical forgiveness of sins?
                      How are you using the term metaphorical? Figure of speech, analogy, symbolic?

                      As I said...Baptism illustrates a believerís identification with Christís death, burial, and resurrection. It's because of Christ death, burial and resurrection you can be repentant and forgiven

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by CrowCross View Post

                        How are you using the term metaphorical? A figure of speech, analogy, symbolic?

                        As I said...Baptism illustrates a believer’s identification with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. It's because of Christ death, burial and resurrection you can be repentant and forgiven

                        A metaphor is a figure of speech that describes an object or action in a way that isnít literally true but helps explain an idea or make a comparison.

                        Heaven goes by favor;if it went by merit,you would stay out and your dog would go in. ~ Mark Twain

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by CrowCross View Post
                          Other reasons besides association are in fulfilling Christ commandment. The theme of identification can be seen in various places. When one is "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"...baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit...there is identification. I'll stick with the Bible rather than non-biblical teachings.

                          You said the following.

                          Originally posted by CrowCross View Post
                          I agree with Bob. I think people should do a study on why people got baptized in the primitive church. Its primary reason was identification...though there are other reasons.
                          So show me what your studies of the early church tells us about baptism. Let's see who is right and whose guilty of the offence of their mouth writing a check that their *** can't cash.
                          Heaven goes by favor;if it went by merit,you would stay out and your dog would go in. ~ Mark Twain

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by mesenja View Post


                            A metaphor is a figure of speech that describes an object or action in a way that isn’t literally true but helps explain an idea or make a comparison.
                            Yeah, like if, "hypothetically," a poster were to say that certain antagonists of the LDS are wolves in sheeps' clothing, or are vipers, or are whited sepulchres, those would be intended metaphorically, not literally.
                            A useful lie would not be against God..Satan can completely assume human form-we may lie with the Devil in the shape of a woman..women may think that a man is in bed with them yet ’tis the Devil; the result is an imp,half mortal,half devil (Luther)

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by NRA-Jeff View Post
                              Yeah, like if, "hypothetically," a poster were to say that certain antagonists of the LDS are wolves in sheep's clothing, vipers, or whited sepulchres, those would be intended metaphorically, not literally.
                              It's not hypothetical that we are not allowed to categorize them as who they literally are but confined to using euphemisms.

                              Heaven goes by favor;if it went by merit,you would stay out and your dog would go in. ~ Mark Twain

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by CrowCross View Post

                                Dude, they believed....and proven to be saved by the pouring of the HS.....Then after they were SAVED...THEY GOT BAPTIZED. After salvation.
                                Nowhere does it say in there that they were "saved". That is your invention, and addition to the Bible. Cornelius was an exceptional case. He was the first Gentile to accept the gospel and become a Christian. Previous to that time the Jews believed that the gospel and the church was intended only for the Jews. It was as quite a culture shock for them to come to terms with the idea that it was available to the Gentiles as well. God performed this miracle, of giving Cornelius and his company the Holy Ghost prior to their baptisms, in order to convince Peter and the Jews that the Gentiles were as good as the Jews as far as the acceptance of the gospel was concerned. It was an exceptional case. The fact that baptism was still required is made clear by Peter's own statement afterwards, when he says: "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord." (Acts 10:47-48). If that doesn't mean that baptism was still required for salvation, I don't know what else it does mean. He didn't say: "Don't bother with their baptism anymore, since they have already received the Holy Ghost." He said the opposite, and commanded that they should be baptized.

                                As far as their "salvation" was concerned, nowhere does it say in there that they were already "saved" just because they accepted the gospel, received the Holy Ghost, and been baptized. Was it still possible at some point in the future for Cornelius to spostatize, deny the faith, and be damned? Of course there was. Did he? I don't know. The Bible doesn't say. We can reasonably hope that he didn't. But it doesn't mean that he couldn't have if he had chosen to, and there were many at that time who did.
                                zerinus
                                I am a Mormon!

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