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  • Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

    Sorry, but the only condition Jesus gave in John 3:16 was BELIEVING in Him for eternal life. The indwelling JS then enables the regenerated person to bear the "fruit of the Spirit."
    Why did you stop there Bonnie? The last verse of the chapter equates believing in the Son with obeying the Son,

    And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn't obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.” John 3:36

    Heaven goes by favor;if it went by merit,you would stay out and your dog would go in. ~ Mark Twain

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

      GRACE THROUGH FAITH, which leads to doing:

      Deeds of charity.

      Keeping his commandments, though we can only do that perfectly when Jesus's perfect keeping of them is credited to us BY FAITH.

      Endure to the end in faith in Christ Jesus our Lord.

      So, do we do these things IN FAITH in Jesus Christ? Or OUTSIDE of faith in Him? Do we do them to GET saved, OR because we are ALREADY saved?

      How many times do I have to explain this to you, Bonnie, that your analogy of once having pushed the button of faith then good works will automatically come down the conveyer belt of grace is false.
      Heaven goes by favor;if it went by merit,you would stay out and your dog would go in. ~ Mark Twain

      Comment


      • Originally posted by BrotherofJared View Post

        I guess that means that John 3:16 is the ONLY verse in the Bible.
        No, it's the only type of verse that they see with their myopic theological perspective. Jesus must have said very little then according to Bonnie.

        Heaven goes by favor;if it went by merit,you would stay out and your dog would go in. ~ Mark Twain

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
          Okay, good. So, why then, are Mormon temple works so NECESSARY for people to do IF they want FULL SALVATION, aka, "exaltation" to godhood, in the CK, after death? Does Jesus or the apostles anywhere in the NT command the building of multi-million dollar temples all over the world, viewing the perverted Mormon versions of the Creation and Fall into sin stories from Genesis, the ceremonies the participants must go through, first for themselves and then vicariously, for other; the wearing of undergarments with Masonic symbols on them; eschewing hot drinks and alcoholic beverages for the rest of one's life; being married and having that marriage sealed in the temple; tithing yearly to the church--so one can remain "temple worthy" until death and be "exalted" to "godhood" into the CK, after death?
          The apostle James not referring to Temple works make them illegitimate according to you? Also, I have explained that in the early church there were exoteric doctrines and esoteric doctrines so the fact that that they are not explicitly mentioned but only alluded to in the New Testament is a non-starter.

          Heaven goes by favor;if it went by merit,you would stay out and your dog would go in. ~ Mark Twain

          Comment


          • Originally posted by mesenja View Post

            They still bring up this nonsense? Pathetic.
            Yes. I have never understood the concept of arguing things we don't believe and yet, our critics keep insisting that we do.
            "...for now is our salvation nearer to us than when we believed." Romans 13:11 -- What else must be done to move past belief? Faith is belief in action. It is works unto salvation.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by mesenja View Post

              The apostle James not referring to Temple works make them illegitimate according to you? Also, I have explained that in the early church there were exoteric doctrines and esoteric doctrines so the fact that that they are not explicitly mentioned but only alluded to in the New Testament is a non-starter.
              Well, Bonnie claims that they are not even alluded to. They are. I provided an example. I don't know if anyone has responded to it or even if it's in this thread. It was, What Christian sacrament (I didn't use the word "sacrament". I said "event" in my previous question.) requires that women veil their faces? Then or now? Paul specifically discussed this. It was apparent that some people didn't like it and he explained the reason for it. It's interesting to note that the KJV translates the word to be a "covering" confusing the average reader. But the correct translation is "veil" or a covering of the face, not just the head. It appears that even the translators were confused about what it was because there was no sacrament that required it at the time of the translation.

              I've been brooding over this passage for some time working out some of the details. There are a few terms which are vague or aren't clear. "head" seems to be used interchangeably to mean, the head on our shoulders or a person with authority. In one place it appears to switch authority with power which shifts from one person to another. Another point of question is, what does it mean to have the head shaved? Why would that be of equal dishonor to the woman's head? An interesting play on words. Once these are identified, we run into another problem in verse 10, how did the angels cause her, in this case, Eve, to have power on her head?

              I'll provide a key here, verse by verse:
              1. 5. "prayeth and prophesieth", vague reference to some unknown and unexplained esoteric practice
              2. 5. "her head", her husband,
              3. 5. "were shaven", were to try to make herself infertile.
              4. 6. "not covered" , not veiled
              5. 6. "be shorn", try to prevent pregancy
              6. 10. "For this cause [that I'm about to tell you]", added for clarification
              7. 10. "of the angels", of a messenger.
              8. 12. "the man [is] also by the woman", by being first to partake of the fruit, woman was the first mortal and brought man with her (thus making her the mother of all "living/mortals")
              The passage in question is 1 Cor 11:5-12.

              As I've been poking around, I have found some "conservative" Christian sects who make their women wear "embarrassing" head covering (IMO, not understand the scriptures). I quote "embarrassing" because it was the word used but one such conservative Christian who disagreed with this view of the passage. It is apparent, that some in Corinth also disagreed. So, the question is, what is this covering and for what purpose would it be worn? I'm not aware of any evidence that supports this idea that if a woman is praying or prophesying she has to wear a veil. Nowhere else in the New Testament, that I know of, does it discuss this subject, but we have many instances of women praying and prophesying. Paul appears to refute the idea in 1 Cor 11:13-16.

              Paul poses two questions: 1) is it proper for women to pray uncovered? And 2) is it shameful for a man to have long hair? Here he presents what appears to be exactly the same thing he in the beginning and then he states that women already have a covering and then wipes everything off the table exclaiming that we have no such custom and specifically states that the none of the churches do either. These latter statements are important to the opening statements he made. It was a medical deduction that long hair improved fertility in women and that the very same deduction indicated that long hair in men did the opposite (Hippocrates, Nat. puer. 20) and (Aristotle, Probl.893b.10-17). It was a stupid deduction long since proven so, but it was, nevertheless, believed by many Gentiles. If long hair was believed to improved fertility, regardless of whether or not it actually did, how much more shameful would a shaved head be? Paul's reference in the beginning to shaved heads had nothing to do with prostitution, women advertised with their bodies back then just as they do now (see "Who Were the Women with Saved Heads (1 Cor. 11:5)", Sandra Glahn, 2014, blog post). A shaved head would be a direct affront to their husband by refusing to bare their children. So, it IS proper for a woman to pray uncovered - don't overdo and don't undo, seems to be the message here. The Corinthians were a liberal group, opting to undo or overdo the things they had been taught. It appears they were trying to undo this use of the covering and they overdid the Lord's supper or sacrament. So, why then is it dishonorable to pray or prophesy uncovered?

              It appears that there is a specific place and time where this practice is appropriate. He makes a specific reference to a chain of authority and connects it to the garden of Eden. The passage continues to allude to the garden epic where this veil is a symbol of power on the head of the woman which Paul alludes to explicitly also part of the garden epic, see verse 12, "even so is the man also by the woman".

              This is explicit theology that can be found only in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and it can only be found in our temples. It is clear to me that modern Christians are only guessing at the meaning of these passages. In all the years that modern Christians have had the Bible, none of them have even come close to understanding or explaining this passage. It is obvious that Paul is referring to an esoteric practice in the church. He both expresses the purpose and reason for doing something (1 Cor 11:5-12) and then expressly denies that those very things are the custom in the churches (1 Cor 11:13-16).

              An interpretation of Paul's meaning follows with the keys above:
              But every woman that participates in this esoteric practice without her veil dishonoreth her husband: It is the same as if she were to make herself barren. For if the woman removes her veil, let her also make herself barren, but, if it is shameful to make herself barren, let her wear her veil. For the man ought not to cover his God/face (double meaning), forasmuch as he (also a double meaning) is the image and glory of God: but the [woman's glory is seen through] the man1. For the man is not of the woman, but the woman of the man (alludes to the rib taken from Adam). Neither is the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man (a helpmeet). [But] for this cause [does] the woman to have power1 over her husband, because of a messenger. Nevertheless, neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. For as the woman is of the man (taken from his side), even so is the man also by the woman (brought into mortality), but all things of God.
              Even the act of making one's self barren is garden epic related.
              1 Refers to the power of the woman

              Further interpreting: 13 - 16
              Ask yourselves, Is it proper that a woman pray to God without a veil? (It seems that they already think it is) [Now compare it to this myth - the myth doesn't come out until the last line], Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair - he makes himself barren? But if a woman have long hair, [nature suggests she will be fertile, but in fact], it is a glory to her: for her hair, in reality, is given her for a covering [so that when she bows her head, it acts as a veil]. But if any man wants to argue about it, [don't], we have no such custom [in exoteric practice], neither the churches of God.
              "...for now is our salvation nearer to us than when we believed." Romans 13:11 -- What else must be done to move past belief? Faith is belief in action. It is works unto salvation.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by BrotherofJared View Post

                Well, Bonnie claims that they are not even alluded to. They are. I provided an example. I don't know if anyone has responded to it or even if it's in this thread. It was, What Christian sacrament (I didn't use the word "sacrament". I said "event" in my previous question.) requires that women veil their faces? Then or now? Paul specifically discussed this. It was apparent that some people didn't like it and he explained the reason for it. It's interesting to note that the KJV translates the word to be a "covering" confusing the average reader. But the correct translation is "veil" or a covering of the face, not just the head. It appears that even the translators were confused about what it was because there was no sacrament that required it at the time of the translation.

                I've been brooding over this passage for some time working out some of the details. There is a few terms which are vague or aren't clear. "head" seems to be used interchangeably to mean, the head on our shoulders or a person with authority. In one place it appears to switch authority with a power which shifts from one person to another. Another point of the question is, what does it mean to have the head shaved? Why would that be of equal dishonour to the woman's head? An interesting play on words. Once these are identified, we run into another problem in verse 10, how did the angels cause her, in this case, Eve, to have power on her head?

                I'll provide a key here, verse by verse:
                1. 5. "prayeth and prophesieth", vague reference to some unknown and unexplained esoteric practice
                2. 5. "her head", her husband,
                3. 5. "were shaven", were to try to make herself infertile.
                4. 6. "not covered" , not veiled
                5. 6. "be shorn", try to prevent pregnancy
                6. 10. "For this cause [that I'm about to tell you]", added for clarification
                7. 10. "of the angels", of a messenger.
                8. 12. "the man [is] also by the woman", by being first to partake of the fruit, the woman was the first mortal and brought the man with her (thus making her the mother of all "living/mortals")
                The passage in question is 1 Cor 11:5-12.

                As I've been poking around, I have found some "conservative" Christian sects who make their women wear "embarrassing" head covering (IMO, not understand the scriptures). I quote "embarrassing" because it was the word used but one such conservative Christian who disagreed with this view of the passage. It is apparent, that some in Corinth also disagreed. So, the question is, what is this covering and for what purpose would it be worn? I'm not aware of any evidence that supports this idea that if a woman is praying or prophesying she has to wear a veil. Nowhere else in the New Testament, that I know of, does it discuss this subject, but we have many instances of women praying and prophesying. Paul appears to refute the idea in 1 Cor 11:13-16.

                Paul poses two questions: 1) is it proper for women to pray uncovered? And 2) is it shameful for a man to have long hair? Here he presents what appears to be exactly the same thing he in the beginning and then he states that women already have a covering and then wipes everything off the table exclaiming that we have no such custom and specifically states that the none of the churches do either. These latter statements are important to the opening statements he made. It was a medical deduction that long hair improved fertility in women and that the very same deduction indicated that long hair in men did the opposite (Hippocrates, Nat. puer. 20) and (Aristotle, Probl.893b.10-17). It was a stupid deduction long since proven so, but it was, nevertheless, believed by many Gentiles. If long hair was believed to improved fertility, regardless of whether or not it actually did, how much more shameful would a shaved head be? Paul's reference in the beginning to shaved heads had nothing to do with prostitution, women advertised with their bodies back then just as they do now (see "Who Were the Women with Saved Heads (1 Cor. 11:5)", Sandra Glahn, 2014, blog post). A shaved head would be a direct affront to their husband by refusing to bare their children. So, it IS proper for a woman to pray uncovered - don't overdo and don't undo, seems to be the message here. The Corinthians were a liberal group, opting to undo or overdo the things they had been taught. It appears they were trying to undo this use of the covering and they overdid the Lord's supper or sacrament. So, why then is it dishonourable to pray or prophesy uncovered?

                It appears that there is a specific place and time where this practice is appropriate. He makes a specific reference to a chain of authority and connects it to the garden of Eden. The passage continues to allude to the garden epic where this veil is a symbol of power on the head of the woman which Paul alludes to explicitly also part of the garden epic, see verse 12, "even so is the man also by the woman".

                This is explicit theology that can be found only in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and it can only be found in our temples. It is clear to me that modern Christians are only guessing at the meaning of these passages. In all the years that modern Christians have had the Bible, none of them have even come close to understanding or explained this passage. It is obvious that Paul is referring to an esoteric practice in the church. He both expresses the purpose and reason for doing something (1 Cor 11:5-12) and then expressly denies that those very things are the custom in the churches (1 Cor 11:13-16).

                An interpretation of Paul's meaning follows with the keys above:
                But every woman that participates in this esoteric practice without her veil dishonoreth her husband: It is the same as if she were to make herself barren. For if the woman removes her veil, let her also make herself barren, but, if it is shameful to make herself barren, let her wear her veil. For the man ought not to cover his God/face (double meaning), forasmuch as he (also a double meaning) is the image and glory of God: but the [woman's glory is seen through] the man1. For the man is not of the woman, but the woman of the man (alludes to the rib taken from Adam). Neither is the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man (a helpmeet). [But] for this cause [does] the woman to have power1 over her husband, because of a messenger. Nevertheless, neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. For as the woman is of the man (taken from his side), even so, is the man also by the woman (brought into mortality), but all things of God.
                Even the act of making one's self barren is garden epic related.
                1 Refers to the power of the woman

                Further interpreting: 13 - 16
                Ask yourselves, Is it proper that a woman pray to God without a veil? (It seems that they already think it is) [Now compare it to this myth - the myth doesn't come out until the last line], Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man has long hair - he makes himself barren? But if a woman has long hair, [nature suggests she will be fertile, but in fact], it is a glory to her: for her hair, in reality, is given her for a covering [so that when she bows her head, it acts as a veil]. But if any man wants to argue about it, [don't], we have no such custom [in exoteric practice], neither the churches of God.
                I am going to read the article Unveiling Women’s Veils of Authority Lynne Hilton Wilson Interpreter: A Journal of Latter-day Saint Faith and Scholarship 28 (2018): 133-154. The first line of her abstract states "The Apostle Paul’s theological explanation for female veil wearing (1 Corinthians 11:2–13) highlights the woman’s head covering as an expression of female empowerment or “authority/exousia.” This clearly isn't just some local social custom divorced from any religious context that he was addressing.
                Heaven goes by favor;if it went by merit,you would stay out and your dog would go in. ~ Mark Twain

                Comment


                • Originally posted by BrotherofJared View Post
                  Yes. I have never understood the concept of arguing things we don't believe and yet, our critics keep insisting that we do.
                  They argue things we do not believe in because it aligns with the narrative put out by the likes of Matt Slick and what they find out about us in their local evangelical Christian bookstore. Yes, I do agree with you that it makes one shake their head in disbelief and ask the question why bother to go to these extremes?
                  Heaven goes by favor;if it went by merit,you would stay out and your dog would go in. ~ Mark Twain

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by mesenja View Post


                    How many times do I have to explain this to you, Bonnie, that your analogy of once having pushed the button of faith then good works will automatically come down the conveyer belt of grace is false.
                    And how many times must I point out that in the LDS church tjat all of the temple works and ordinances and the WoW, and wear their sacred undergarments, be married and have that marriage sealed in the temple are WORKS Mormons MUST DO and DO and DO and DO< in order to be "worthy" of "exaltation" to "godhood" after death and be creators of worlds and populate them with their own spirit children? As the Young Women's manual states "Exaltation is worth ALL OUR EFFORTS." It isn't a gift that your god just gives you. NO Mormons must WORK for it. And first and foremost, they must tithe yearly to the church in order even to be "worthy" to get INTO the temples, to do the "ordinances", first for themselves and then for others.

                    This is grace? This is God's UNdeserved favor? Sure, in Mormonism Jesus Christ allows Mormons the OPPORTUNITY to earn their "exaltation." But is that truly "grace"--God's undeserved favor?

                    Mormons do and do and do and do and so some more...but Jesus says "DONE!" "IT IS FINISHED! PAID IN FULL!
                    "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                    "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                    “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                    "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                    "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by mesenja View Post

                      Bonnie, I've already gone over this with you. The early church had both exoteric doctrines meaning those intended for or likely to be understood by the general public and esoteric doctrines or those intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with specialized knowledge or interest.


                      Prove it. FROM the Bible.
                      "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                      "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                      “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                      "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                      "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by mesenja View Post

                        The apostle James not referring to Temple works make them illegitimate according to you? Also, I have explained that in the early church there were exoteric doctrines and esoteric doctrines so the fact that that they are not explicitly mentioned but only alluded to in the New Testament is a non-starter.
                        They are illegitimate because they are UNbiblical, pervert the Word of God. especially in the video, and teach a false gospel, and are basically warm-over Masonic rituals with a Mormon twist.
                        "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                        "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                        “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                        "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                        "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by mesenja View Post

                          Why did you stop there Bonnie? The last verse of the chapter equates believing in the Son with obeying the Son,

                          And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn't obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.” John 3:36
                          Goodness gracious, I have quoted this verse a number of times on here, to show a certain Mormon that "obeying" the Son/Gospel means BELIEVING it, not obeying a bunch of rules and regulations. Preaching to the choir here, mesenja!

                          And i have linked to this on here numerous times, on this board:

                          https://faithalone.org/grace-in-focu...s-15-and-1626/

                          It is biblically correct to speak of faith as an act of obedience. After all, God commands us to believe the Gospel (e.g., Acts 16:31).

                          Support for this view is seen in many passages. Acts 6:7 says that “many of the priests were obedient to the faith.” Romans 10:16 and 2 Thess 1:8 speak of obeying or disobeying the Gospel. See also, John 3:36; 6:28-29; 1 Pet 1:2, 22; 2:7-8; and Acts 5:32. CONCLUSION

                          Jesus called for people to believe in Him. Thus whenever anyone believes in Him, he is obeying Him. Saving faith is an act of obedience.

                          So, you should not be bothered by the idea of faith as an act of obedience.

                          The obedience of faith spoken of in Rom 1:5 and 16:26 does not refer to obeying all that God has commanded. No one but the Lord Jesus has done that. Rather, it refers specifically to obeying the command to believe the Gospel. If you’ve done that, you’ve exercised the obedience of faith.
                          "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                          "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                          “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                          "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                          "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by mesenja View Post

                            No, it's the only type of verse that they see with their myopic theological perspective. Jesus must have said very little then according to Bonnie.
                            Hardly! We know other verses that Jesus said about salvation, like these:

                            "Your FAITH has saved you; go in peace." (Luke 7:50)

                            "24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live." (John 5:24-25)

                            "42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:42-43)

                            Then of course, there are ALL of THESE verses:

                            1. And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.” (Genesis 15:6, ESV)
                            2. “Our God is a God who saves; from the Sovereign LORD comes escape from death.” (Psalm 68:20, ESV)
                            3. “LORD, you are the God who saves me; day and night I cry out to you.” (Psalm 88:1, NIV)
                            4. “We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.” (Isaiah 64:6, ESV)
                            5. “Look, his ego is inflated; he is without integrity. But the righteous one will live by his faith.” (Habakkuk 2:4, HCSB)
                            6. “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” (Matthew 26:28, NIV)
                            7. “Jesus said to the woman, ‘Your faith has saved you; go in peace.’” (Luke 7:50, NIV)
                            8. “Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.” (John 1:12, NIV)
                            9. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16, NKJV)
                            10. “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” (John 3:18, NKJV)
                            11. “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.” (John 5:24, ESV)
                            12. “Jesus answered, ‘The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent’.” (John 6:29, NIV)
                            13. “Then Jesus declared, ‘I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty’.” (John 6:35, NIV)
                            14. “He [Jesus] said, ‘It is finished!’” (John 19:30, NKJV)
                            15. “By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus’ name and the faith that comes through him that has completely healed him, as you can all see.” (Acts: 3:16, NIV)
                            16. “And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” (Acts 16:31, ESV)
                            17. “For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: ‘The righteous will live by faith’.” (Romans 1:16-17, NIV)
                            18. "Even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction." (Romans 3:22, NASB)
                            demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." (Romans 3:24-26, NKJV)
                            20. "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law." (Romans 3:28, NIV)
                            21. "If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? ‘And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.’" (Romans 4:2-3, NIV)
                            22. “Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works” (Romans 4:4-6, ESV)
                            23. "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also" (Romans 4:11, NASB)
                            24. "So the promise is received by faith. It is given as a free gift. And we are all certain to receive it, whether or not we live according to the law of Moses, if we have faith like Abraham’s. For Abraham is the father of all who believe." (Romans 4:16, NLT)
                            25. "Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." (Romans 5:1, NKJV)
                            26. “Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!” (Romans 5:9, NIV)
                            27. “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:3, NASB)
                            28. “It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.” (Romans 9:16, NIV)
                            29. "What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith" (Romans 9:30, NIV)
                            30. "Just as it is written, ‘Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed’.” (Romans 9:33, NASB)
                            31. "For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." (Romans 10:3-4, NASB)
                            32. "That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." (Romans 10:9-10, NKJV)
                            33. “For ‘everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved’.” (Romans 10:13, ESV)
                            34. "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace." (Romans 11:6, ESV)
                            35. "Nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified." (Galatians 2:16, NASB)
                            36. “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.” (Galatians 2:21, NASB)
                            37. “I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?” (Galatians 3:2-3, NIV)
                            38. "So then, does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law or by hearing with faith? Just as Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness, then understand that those who have faith are Abraham’s sons. Now the Scripture saw in advance that God would justify the Gentiles by faith and told the good news ahead of time to Abraham, saying, All the nations will be blessed through you. So those who have faith are blessed with Abraham, who had faith."(Galatians 3:5-9, HCSB)
                            39. “Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us.” (Galatians 3:11-12, NIV)
                            40. "In order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." (Galatians 3:14, NASB)
                            41. "But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe." (Galatians 3:22, ESV)
                            42. “Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith." (Galatians 3:24, NKVJ)
                            43. “In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace.” (Ephesians 1:7, NIV)
                            . “Even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved.” (Ephesians 2:5, ESV)46. "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, Not a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9, NKJV)
                            47. "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith." (Philippians 3:9, NASB)
                            48. “By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance.” (Hebrews 11:8, NKJV)
                            49. “These all died in faith without having received the promises, but they saw them from a distance, greeted them, and confessed that they were foreigners and temporary residents on the earth. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.” (Hebrews 11:13,16, HCSB)
                            50. “All these were approved through their faith, but they did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, so that they would not be made perfect without us. (Hebrews 11:39-40, HCSB)
                            51. "yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.“ (1 Timothy 1:16, NASB)
                            52. “He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace.” (2 Timothy 1:9, NIV)
                            53. “He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.” (Titus 3:5, ESV)
                            54. “because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.” (Revelation 5:9, NIV)
                            55. “[Jesus] said to me, ‘It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give to the thirsty from the spring of living water as a gift’.” (Revelation 21:7, HCSB)
                            (compiled from a list that someone put on this board years ago)

                            I know this is a long list, but I have had it on here before, ncthe old boards, and Diane gave me permission post them all on one post. Just and fyi.

                            So see I know LOTS of other verses about salvation by grace through faith!




                            "
                            "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                            "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                            “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                            "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                            "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

                            Comment


                            • But leaders in your church have written that we must "merit" what level of heaven we go to after death This is from Milton Hunter, one of your church's great theologians:

                              n the first stage, man was an eternally existent being termed an intelligence.... The next realm where man dwelt was the spirit world. According to Mormon concept eternally-existing intelligences were clothed with spirit bodies in the mansion of their Eternal Father... numerous sons and daughters were begotten and born of HEAVENLY PARENTS into that eternal family in the spirit world... There in the spirit world they were reared to maturity, becoming grown spirit men and women prior to coming upon this earth... Following his stay in the spirit world, man comes on earth... Here he receives a physical body and undergoes the experiences of mortality... Eventually, however, mortal death comes upon all. The eternal spirit goes to the spirit world to await resurrection and judgment... There they shall be assigned to the glory that they have MERITED.. some will receive telestial glory; others terrestrial, while those who are recorded in 'the Lamb's book of life' will enter celestial glory. There some of them will become angels, and others priests and Kings, or in other words Gods (G.T.A., pp. 127-129).
                              From GOSPEL THROUGH THE AGES by Milton Hunter.

                              MERITED. That means we must MERIT the highest level of Mormon heaven--the CK, and exaltation to godhood.
                              "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                              "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                              “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                              "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                              "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

                                Prove it. FROM the Bible.
                                LOL. You obviously don't understand the difference between the two terms. If it's esoteric, there isn't going to be any proof unless you have intimate knowledge of it, so if we prove it, which I already did, you'll claim it doesn't prove anything because you don't know about it. In other words, we're only allowed to believe what modern Christians permit us to believe, including what we believe about our own religion.
                                "...for now is our salvation nearer to us than when we believed." Romans 13:11 -- What else must be done to move past belief? Faith is belief in action. It is works unto salvation.

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