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As most of you are aware, we had a crash to forums and were down for over two days a while back. We did have to do an upgrade to the vbulletin software to fix the forums and that has created changes, VB no longer provide the hybrid or threaded forums. There are some issues/changes to the forums we are not able to fix or change. Also note the link address change, please let friends and posters know of the changed link to the forums. For now this is the only link available, https://forums.carm.org/vb5/ but if clicking on forum on carm.org homepage it will now send you to this link. (edited to add https: now working.

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  • Overwhelmed

    Hi! I enjoyed posting here, but I have to admit. I am overwhelmed by the size of the topics. It isn't easy to read a long thread because the replies may be spread over pages. In many ways Mormons seem to be good Christians. Saint Paul was a murderer? Why shouldn't we believe Smith?

    What does he teach that is opposing scripture? You can skip polygamy that seems to be the most discussed thing on this board. What else is wrong. I see that Mormons agree more with protestants that are not Lutheran or those denominations that believe in infant baptism and the sacraments. So you don't have to discuss those things either because we understand that.

    My question is why are Mormons condemned by all denominations.
    Mark 9:24 Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

    “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things,
    but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin Luther


    Muretus "Call no man worthless for whom Christ died!"

  • #2
    Originally posted by Thekla View Post
    Hi! I enjoyed posting here, but I have to admit. I am overwhelmed by the size of the topics. It isn't easy to read a long thread because the replies may be spread over pages. In many ways Mormons seem to be good Christians. Saint Paul was a murderer? Why shouldn't we believe Smith?

    What does he teach that is opposing scripture? You can skip polygamy that seems to be the most discussed thing on this board. What else is wrong. I see that Mormons agree more with protestants that are not Lutheran or those denominations that believe in infant baptism and the sacraments. So you don't have to discuss those things either because we understand that.

    My question is why are Mormons condemned by all denominations.
    Thekla, I have enjoyed you here. I hope you stick around.

    My own answer to your question is a very cynical one...but based upon long years of experience.

    There is a quote....I think, ultimately, that I get to claim it. "He whom one would persecute must first be made 'other.' "

    It's not particularly about Mormonism, that's the frustrating part. It's about anybody who is different. Many Christians (and others...) cannot believe in their own 'specialness' unless there are those who are NOT 'special' over whom they can claim superiority. Doesn't have to be Mormon. Anybody who is different will do. ....and I believe that you have seen that the difference doesn't even have to be real. It can, and usually is, a 'strawman' construction made up by the ones doing the aiming.

    Good heavens....just this morning I saw one of the critics in here claim that we believed that 'humans were fallen angels.'

    Wait.

    What??????


    Uh...no...we don't believe that, but it doesn't matter much. Doesn't really matter whether the target group believes whatever is being criticized of not, actually; just that the perception is there.

    So...why is Mormonism 'condemned by all denominations?" Because they can. Because it makes them feel better about their own positions. Because it is human nature to hate the 'other.' (shrug)

    Those same people who condemn Mormonism also condemn many other belief systems, and for the same reasons....which have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with what those other belief systems actually believe in or think. THAT I figured out a long time ago.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by dianaiad View Post

      Thekla, I have enjoyed you here. I hope you stick around.

      My own answer to your question is a very cynical one...but based upon long years of experience.

      There is a quote....I think, ultimately, that I get to claim it. "He whom one would persecute must first be made 'other.' "

      It's not particularly about Mormonism, that's the frustrating part. It's about anybody who is different. Many Christians (and others...) cannot believe in their own 'specialness' unless there are those who are NOT 'special' over whom they can claim superiority. Doesn't have to be Mormon. Anybody who is different will do. ....and I believe that you have seen that the difference doesn't even have to be real. It can, and usually is, a 'strawman' construction made up by the ones doing the aiming.

      Good heavens....just this morning I saw one of the critics in here claim that we believed that 'humans were fallen angels.'

      Wait.

      What??????


      Uh...no...we don't believe that, but it doesn't matter much. Doesn't really matter whether the target group believes whatever is being criticized of not, actually; just that the perception is there.

      So...why is Mormonism 'condemned by all denominations?" Because they can. Because it makes them feel better about their own positions. Because it is human nature to hate the 'other.' (shrug)

      Those same people who condemn Mormonism also condemn many other belief systems, and for the same reasons....which have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with what those other belief systems actually believe in or think. THAT I figured out a long time ago.
      But don't you condemn us too?
      Mark 9:24 Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

      “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things,
      but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin Luther


      Muretus "Call no man worthless for whom Christ died!"

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Thekla View Post

        But don't you condemn us too?
        Nope, actually, we don't.

        Oh, don't get me wrong; we'll do our best to CONVERT you, and we don't believe you have all the truth, but 'condemn?" No. Not even a little bit.

        You won't find 'counter cult' lessons in the church. you won't find any church sponsored (and very few, if any, privately owned stuff) that is aimed at the beliefs of others, to criticize those others. There ARE LDS sites out there that address other beliefs, but you will notice that every one of them (at least, every one that I know about ) is all about answering criticisms BY others, not beginning criticisms OF others.

        Even me, with my rather clear abhorence of Calvinism and all other forms of predestination, go after that doctrine, not after the belief systems that incorporate it...and even then I think you will notice that I don't begin it out of the clear blue. It's always in response to some criticism of my own beliefs.

        When converts 'bear their testimonies" about their conversions, they are ACTIVELY discouraged from 'bad mouthing' their previous belief systems. It is just..."not done." They are encouraged to praise the system they Came from,' and allude to unanswered questions...but to criticize the old one? Nope. it comes as a bit of a surprise to converts, sometimes.

        The problem for us, you see, is that we believe that all Christian (and most other) belief systems have some truth in them. We just have more...and we claim to have priesthood authority. We do not believe that simple belief in the wrong thing (especially if one doesn't know better) is going to send anybody to hell.

        So, no, we don't 'condemn you too."

        I'll admit that we DO take a very dim view of the antis....no matter what they are 'anti.'

        Not because they believe differently, but because they are, well, antis. It takes some doing to BE an anti (and you, dear heart, do not qualify as far as I am concerned) , involving deliberate choices to spread misinformation and to justify it by the 'ends justify the means' attitude.

        I do have a problem with that.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Thekla View Post

          My question is why are Mormons condemned by all denominations.
          Are you trying to find out more about Mormonism, or more about anti-Mormonism?
          zerinus
          I am a Mormon!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by zerinus View Post

            Are you trying to find out more about Mormonism, or more about anti-Mormonism?
            Both
            Mark 9:24 Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

            “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things,
            but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin Luther


            Muretus "Call no man worthless for whom Christ died!"

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Thekla View Post

              But don't you condemn us too?
              What are you ("us") who you think or see as condemned ? What emotion is betrayed by the smiley ?
              If you are condemned, it is for your own unbelief - and according to all Scripture, you are judged by your own words, not by other posters words.

              Comment


              • #8
                QUOTE=Thekla;n5828782]Hi! I enjoyed posting here, but I have to admit. I am overwhelmed by the size of the topics. It isn't easy to read a long thread because the replies may be spread over pages. In many ways Mormons seem to be good Christians. Saint Paul was a murderer? Why shouldn't we believe Smith?

                What does he teach that is opposing scripture? You can skip polygamy that seems to be the most discussed thing on this board. What else is wrong. I see that Mormons agree more with protestants that are not Lutheran or those denominations that believe in infant baptism and the sacraments. So you don't have to discuss those things either because we understand that.

                My question is why are Mormons condemned by all denominations.[/QUOTE]

                Their teachings are condemned by orhodox Christisnity because almost nothing they teach is truly Christian, or Biblical. Does any of this sound Biblical and truly Christian?

                1. God the Father was once a man who dwelt on "an earth" who had to learn how to become a God. (Smith preached this in his King Follett sermon) And we too can learn how to become Gods, and creators of worlds, and populate them with our own spirit progeny. Though only the men truly become Gods. Their wives become priestesses to their God husbands, if I am not mistaken..
                2. Jesus and Satan were actual brothers, by Heavenly Father and some unnamed exalted wife or wives, in the pre-mortal, spirit existence.
                3. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate Gods. Not three Persons in One God.
                4. Three levels of heaven.
                5. We are saved by Grace AFTER all WE can do. And of course, FULL salvation in the LDS church means going through the temple endowment ceremony, observing the WoW, and wearing undergarments with Masonic symbols on them for the rest of one's life. And of course, tithing yearly in order to be "worthy" even to get INTO a Mormon temple. All this so one may be "exalted" to "godhood" in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom after death.
                6. Adam was first Michael the Archangel.
                7. God the Father is an exalted man of flesh and bones.

                Does any of this sound remotely like orthodox Christian doctrine? Does any of this sound Biblical? And yes, this is what the LDS church teaches. I have been studying it for years. The LDS cnurch uses some of the same terminology as true Christianity, but assigns different meanings to the terms true Christianity has been usi g and defined, for nearly 2000 years.
                As Proverbs says:

                Proverbs 3:5-6 English Standard Version (ESV)

                5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
                and do not lean on your own understanding.
                6 In all your ways acknowledge him,
                and he will make straight your paths.
                Please trust in Jesus Christ--not Joseph Smith, Jr. Please stick to what the Bible says. Cling to Jesus of the Bible.

                "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Thekla View Post

                  Both
                  The Mormonism board is to discuss Mormonism and it's doctrines.
                  ~~~My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My Father's hand~~~

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 4Him View Post

                    The Mormonism board is to discuss Mormonism and it's doctrines.
                    That is what I want to know their doctrines and what they are based on. However, if I only hear from the Mormons, I don't find out what "antis" consider incorrect in their doctrines and information. That seems what the discussions are about.
                    Mark 9:24 Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

                    “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things,
                    but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin Luther


                    Muretus "Call no man worthless for whom Christ died!"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Thekla View Post

                      That is what I want to know their doctrines and what they are based on. However, if I only hear from the Mormons, I don't find out what "antis" consider incorrect in their doctrines and information. That seems what the discussions are about.
                      You can discuss Mormonism, but there will be no discussion about "anti mormons" on this board. Non mormons can tell you what is wrong, but there will be no discussion of other 'religions' on this board.

                      Here's a good place for you to start if you want to learn about it. https://carm.org/mormonism
                      ~~~My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My Father's hand~~~

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Thekla View Post
                        Hi! I enjoyed posting here, but I have to admit. I am overwhelmed by the size of the topics. It isn't easy to read a long thread because the replies may be spread over pages. In many ways Mormons seem to be good Christians. Saint Paul was a murderer? Why shouldn't we believe Smith?

                        What does he teach that is opposing scripture? You can skip polygamy that seems to be the most discussed thing on this board. What else is wrong. I see that Mormons agree more with protestants that are not Lutheran or those denominations that believe in infant baptism and the sacraments. So you don't have to discuss those things either because we understand that.

                        My question is why are Mormons condemned by all denominations.
                        Mainly, because they believe they (worthy men) can have the same power, glory, knowledge, and dominion that God has, which is blasphemy to most faiths. .
                        But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 4Him View Post

                          You can discuss Mormonism, but there will be no discussion about "anti mormons" on this board. Non mormons can tell you what is wrong, but there will be no discussion of other 'religions' on this board.

                          Here's a good place for you to start if you want to learn about it. https://carm.org/mormonism
                          Hey for 4Him..I have been away for awhile. Is discussing "anti-Mormon" now wrong. Is a banned term now?

                          Thanks
                          But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Markk View Post

                            Hey for 4Him..I have been away for awhile. Is discussing "anti-Mormon" now wrong. Is a banned term now?

                            Thanks
                            No, the term isn't banned, but you cannot discuss other religions on the Mormonism board. It's to discuss Mormonism.
                            ~~~My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My Father's hand~~~

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 4Him View Post

                              You can discuss Mormonism, but there will be no discussion about "anti mormons" on this board. Non mormons can tell you what is wrong, but there will be no discussion of other 'religions' on this board.

                              Here's a good place for you to start if you want to learn about it. https://carm.org/mormonism
                              Indeed. if you want to see what, er, antis think about Mormonism, that is a good place to go.

                              Comment

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