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What is the difference between salvation and exaltation in LDS theology?

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  • Originally posted by Markk View Post

    CFR for all of that.

    Are you going to answer my two questions?

    One thing I found is that LDS people don't really know how to pray. Typically the PH member does a prayer with thees' and thou's...and that is it. When I came to the Lord, I went to Prayer meetings where women, men, and children all prayed, read bible verses in prayer, and sang worship songs, and it was weird too me at first, until I got it.

    Do you get up every morning and grab you wife's hand and take turn praying together for life's challenges? Do you go to midweek bible studies with friend apart from the church to study the Bible? In your private study what book are you in and what are you studying on your own? What are you struggling with to understand and work through in your study, which I do all the time. I am certain lazy at times, and I go through peaks and valleys in my personal walk...which is expected.

    Would you like to go through a book in the bible together here or via PM's?

    I think you will find that "the church" is not what you think it is.
    Hereís a link to a detailed and annotated account of the charitable giving lie. https://www.timesandseasons.org/harc...itable-giving/

    My prayers are none of your business. I can tell you that the average Mormon prays about 7 times a day (Pew Research).

    Do I go to Bible study apart from the Church? I teach Bible study. And no, itís not apart from the Church since itís a member of the Church (me) teaching it.

    My private Bible study is just that; private, and none of your business.

    No, I have no interest in having you tutor me on your views of any particular book of scripture, particularly when you announce in advance that your intent is to try and show me that the Church isnít what I think it is.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by JustaLurker View Post

      Here’s a link to a detailed and annotated account of the charitable giving lie. https://www.timesandseasons.org/harc...itable-giving/

      My prayers are none of your business. I can tell you that the average Mormon prays about 7 times a day (Pew Research).

      Do I go to Bible study apart from the Church? I teach Bible study. And no, it’s not apart from the Church since it’s a member of the Church (me) teaching it.

      My private Bible study is just that; private, and none of your business.

      No, I have no interest in having you tutor me on your views of any particular book of scripture, particularly when you announce in advance that your intent is to try and show me that the Church isn’t what I think it is.
      So how much of their 8 billion a year of monies received goes to charity each year? The comments say around .7% to 5% of 8 billion a year compared to UMC that give 29%? Did you read this before you pasted it?

      They may have spent more on a wall than all charities in the past 25 years? Pretty fuzzy to me.
      But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Markk View Post

        So how much of their 8 billion a year of monies received goes to charity each year? The comments say around .7% to 5% of 8 billion a year compared to UMC that give 29%? Did you read this before you pasted it?

        They may have spent more on a wall than all charities in the past 25 years? Pretty fuzzy to me.
        I have read that, too. The experts must extrapolate from what information they have available on the LDS church's spending--especially in other countries, where they are required by law to disclose to the governments how they spent their members' money--that the LDS church give less than one percent of its income on charity. An amount like $57 million sounds impressive, but when the percentage of what the LDS takes in every year is considered, it is not that much.

        And I too have read that 29% from the Methodist church. This info came from a book I have called...oh, drat, I forget what it is called and it is on my tablet. Something about the Latter Day Mormon Swindle. By Watson. Have you ever read that book, Markk? One chapter is on finances. Very interesting.

        I have also found it interesting that the LDS church does not disclose to its membership every year how it spends their tithes and offerings, except in a very general way--like building temples and their upkeep, funding missions, etc. But no real breakdown, like in pie chart, that shows what percentage went where. Yet most other churches do provide a breakdown for their membership that shows how their offerings were used for the past year.
        "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
        "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
        "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
        "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
        "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

        Comment


        • Originally posted by JustaLurker View Post

          I imagine it is very liberating to decide outright that there is a limit to what you will sacrifice for the Lord, to decide deliberately that you plan to cut back on your obedience to His commands because you believe it doesn't matter. Saved is saved and He did it all for you so you are free to sit back and have a beer.

          Cheap Grace. Dietrich Bonhoeffer
          Show us where Jesus commands us not to drink beer--especially since HE drank wine and His enemies accused Him of being a "wine-bibber"--and to wear special undergarments with Masonic symbols on them, and NOT drink coffee and tea...in order to be "worthy" to get into one of the Mormon temples. Since Jesus Himself drank, HE would NOT have gotten a temple recommend!

          Jesus didn't save us to drink beer, of course, but Markk just means that having one beer after mowing the lawn isn't a sin. Getting drunk IS. But if eating meat sold in an idol's temple isn't a sin, for those strong in the faith, then drinking one beer after mowing the lawn isn't, either. But if anyone thinks it is a sin, then for him/her, it is, and they should not do it.
          "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
          "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
          "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
          "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
          "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

            I have read that, too. The experts must extrapolate from what information they have available on the LDS church's spending--especially in other countries, where they are required by law to disclose to the governments how they spent their members' money--that the LDS church give less than one percent of its income on charity. An amount like $57 million sounds impressive, but when the percentage of what the LDS takes in every year is considered, it is not that much.

            And I too have read that 29% from the Methodist church. This info came from a book I have called...oh, drat, I forget what it is called and it is on my tablet. Something about the Latter Day Mormon Swindle. By Watson. Have you ever read that book, Markk? One chapter is on finances. Very interesting.

            I have also found it interesting that the LDS church does not disclose to its membership every year how it spends their tithes and offerings, except in a very general way--like building temples and their upkeep, funding missions, etc. But no real breakdown, like in pie chart, that shows what percentage went where. Yet most other churches do provide a breakdown for their membership that shows how their offerings were used for the past year.
            No I haven't. I have read several articles on finances. in the 90's they were reported as spending 550 million a year on missionary efforts alone, but who knows for sure...they have a blank check and no accountability to the folks. FYI...you would never hear a member complain about this to a gentile, but you do hear it discussed within the body. The Mall was a big deal that even broke the barrier, and many went public with their disagreements.



            But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

              Show us where Jesus commands us not to drink beer--especially since HE drank wine and His enemies accused Him of being a "wine-bibber"--and to wear special undergarments with Masonic symbols on them, and NOT drink coffee and tea...in order to be "worthy" to get into one of the Mormon temples. Since Jesus Himself drank, HE would NOT have gotten a temple recommend!

              Jesus didn't save us to drink beer, of course, but Markk just means that having one beer after mowing the lawn isn't a sin. Getting drunk IS. But if eating meat sold in an idol's temple isn't a sin, for those strong in the faith, then drinking one beer after mowing the lawn isn't, either. But if anyone thinks it is a sin, then for him/her, it is, and they should not do it.
              It tough for the saint to understand, I was hesitant to add the beer part in that the point is free from guilt of legalism. I could have written going shopping with my family also.

              Work dominate the persona of the saint, and that is why there is so much depression IMO in places like Utah where Big Brother is watching.

              One thing I love to do is after church go to a restaurant for breakfast with friends and family for fellowship...try doing that in Provo if you are a saint.

              When my father was sick and in a hospital in Provo, I was staying (taking turns with my siblings) with him in the Hospital...and I chose Sundays in that my family there held high callings and had to be at church on Sundays. And it was weird getting up and walking the streets looking for a place for breakfast and a decent cup of coffee.

              To be clear the Bible states we should not judge a mans day of rest, and if that is what a person want fine...but I can judge it when it is a legalistic commandment that impacts ones salvation...and creates guilt for many...at least in IMO.









              But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Markk View Post

                So how much of their 8 billion a year of monies received goes to charity each year? The comments say around .7% to 5% of 8 billion a year compared to UMC that give 29%? Did you read this before you pasted it?

                They may have spent more on a wall than all charities in the past 25 years? Pretty fuzzy to me.
                The article debunks the oft repeated data point. It does not attempt to provide a tally of its own.

                The Church spends a little over $3 Bil a year in total charitable giving. I arrived at that by the following:

                Every source I can find claims that the Bishop of the Ward writes checks totaling about $3000 per month paying for utilities, rents, and other necessities for those in distress. I cut that figure in half just to be conservative. There are 31000 Wards in the Church, 12 months in a year. Then I added the organizational expenditures enumerated in the article in the link provided. I did not include any of the Bishop’s Storehouse food pantries because I just don’t have a dollar figure for those.

                About $3.2Bil a year.

                And the Church is able to sustain that kind of giving year after year, indefinitely.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Markk View Post

                  It tough for the saint to understand, I was hesitant to add the beer part in that the point is free from guilt of legalism. I could have written going shopping with my family also.

                  Work dominate the persona of the saint, and that is why there is so much depression IMO in places like Utah where Big Brother is watching.

                  One thing I love to do is after church go to a restaurant for breakfast with friends and family for fellowship...try doing that in Provo if you are a saint.

                  When my father was sick and in a hospital in Provo, I was staying (taking turns with my siblings) with him in the Hospital...and I chose Sundays in that my family there held high callings and had to be at church on Sundays. And it was weird getting up and walking the streets looking for a place for breakfast and a decent cup of coffee.

                  To be clear the Bible states we should not judge a mans day of rest, and if that is what a person want fine...but I can judge it when it is a legalistic commandment that impacts ones salvation...and creates guilt for many...at least in IMO.








                  I sat with My father, when he was in hospice, on Good Friday and on Easter Sundays, while he was dying. This was in the spring of 2007. This was the first time since 1960 that I had missed church on those days. In 1960 I had had my tonsils out.

                  But sitting with my father was serving Jesus Christ and showing love for Him, by showing love for my father in His last days. It was a form of worship. I read to my father from a devotional for Easter and prayed with Him.

                  My calling was to teach Sunday School to our church's children. But I gave it up to fly to where my father was, and took turns with my sister and daughter sitting with Him. Ghecchurch would have been shocked had I stayed home to teach Sunday School, rather than be with my father. They WANTED me to go to him.

                  I guess your siblings did not realize that sitting with your dad was a form of worship and serving Jesus Christ. They were blessed that they had you to sit with your father on Sundays.
                  "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                  "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                  "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                  "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                  "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Markk View Post
                    When my father was sick and in a hospital in Provo, I was staying (taking turns with my siblings) with him in the Hospital...and I chose Sundays in that my family there held high callings and had to be at church on Sundays. And it was weird getting up and walking the streets looking for a place for breakfast and a decent cup of coffee.
                    [
                    You always told me you grew up in San Bernadino area.. when did you change to living in Provo?
                    ďNever argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.Ē -- George Carlin

                    We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideals of Christianity, our movement is Christian. - Adolf Hitler

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

                      Show us where Jesus commands us not to drink beer--especially since HE drank wine and His enemies accused Him of being a "wine-bibber"--and to wear special undergarments with Masonic symbols on them, and NOT drink coffee and tea...in order to be "worthy" to get into one of the Mormon temples. Since Jesus Himself drank, HE would NOT have gotten a temple recommend!

                      Jesus didn't save us to drink beer, of course, but Markk just means that having one beer after mowing the lawn isn't a sin. Getting drunk IS. But if eating meat sold in an idol's temple isn't a sin, for those strong in the faith, then drinking one beer after mowing the lawn isn't, either. But if anyone thinks it is a sin, then for him/her, it is, and they should not do it.
                      You'll find the Lord's admonition against alcohol and other drinks in the Doctrine and Covenants Section 89. You'll find references to the garments in Exodus 29 and 40.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by oceancoast View Post
                        You always told me you grew up in San Bernadino area.. when did you change to living in Provo?
                        My Parents moved to Springville when he retired in California I did grow up in San Bernardino. I have many family members in Utah, Mesa AZ, Idaho...and So Ca.

                        I never said I lived in Provo...my father was dying in a Provo hospital, and we took him home to pass after a few weeks in the Hospital.

                        But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

                          I sat with My father, when he was in hospice, on Good Friday and on Easter Sundays, while he was dying. This was in the spring of 2007. This was the first time since 1960 that I had missed church on those days. In 1960 I had had my tonsils out.

                          But sitting with my father was serving Jesus Christ and showing love for Him, by showing love for my father in His last days. It was a form of worship. I read to my father from a devotional for Easter and prayed with Him.

                          My calling was to teach Sunday School to our church's children. But I gave it up to fly to where my father was, and took turns with my sister and daughter sitting with Him. Ghecchurch would have been shocked had I stayed home to teach Sunday School, rather than be with my father. They WANTED me to go to him.

                          I guess your siblings did not realize that sitting with your dad was a form of worship and serving Jesus Christ. They were blessed that they had you to sit with your father on Sundays.
                          My siblings came by after church, we have tight family, good people. It was a blessing though in that I had a chance to hold his hand and talk with him one on one. I held his hand as he died a few weeks later and that was a huge blessing.
                          But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by oceancoast
                            You absolutely do, and I have asked you to stop repeatedly.. I ended any sense of being your friend, going to lunch with you because of that. Now it's the point where I believe I have forgiven you 7 x 70 times and I'm ready to dust my feet..
                            OC, I still consider you a friend.
                            But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by justalurker View Post

                              the article debunks the oft repeated data point. It does not attempt to provide a tally of its own.

                              The church spends a little over $3 bil a year in total charitable giving. I arrived at that by the following:

                              Every source i can find claims that the bishop of the ward writes checks totaling about $3000 per month paying for utilities, rents, and other necessities for those in distress. I cut that figure in half just to be conservative. There are 31000 wards in the church, 12 months in a year. Then i added the organizational expenditures enumerated in the article in the link provided. I did not include any of the bishop’s storehouse food pantries because i just don’t have a dollar figure for those.

                              About $3.2bil a year.

                              And the church is able to sustain that kind of giving year after year, indefinitely.
                              huh?

                              But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by oceancoast
                                You absolutely do, and I have asked you to stop repeatedly.. I ended any sense of being your friend, going to lunch with you because of that. Now it's the point where I believe I have forgiven you 7 x 70 times and I'm ready to dust my feet..
                                A fine example of non-judgmental, Christ-like love right there.
                                ~ There is life after mormonism, and it's good! Just stay close to Christ.
                                ~ You can't follow Christ and false prophets at the same time.
                                ~ "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

                                Comment

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