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2 Nephi 25:23-25

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  • 2 Nephi 25:23-25

    Well, since the TBMs here are too unwilling to exegete and interpret Biblical scripture, how about trying your hands at your own scripture? In the Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 25:23-25 which says:

    23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
    24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.
    25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.

    Perhaps the TBMs here can explain and reconcile the bolded section of scripture with Ephesians 2:8-10 which says :


    For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
    9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
    10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
    NKJV

    The Book of Mormon passage also talks of keeping the law of Moses yet believing in Christ.

    How does that reconcile with Galatians 5:1-6 which says :

    Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
    2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
    3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
    4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
    5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
    6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
    NKJV


    Please explain how grace is still grace (unmerited favor) if grace needs to be merited by whatever it is we can do? It appears the reading shows "after all e can do" happens before the grace is given for salvation. That appears to be works before grace can be given which stands in contrast to Ephesians 2:8-9. And lest any TBM start harping about James 2, this is a reminder that "works" in that scripture show the evidence of faith, not something needed to be added to faith to get salvation, but are the result of salvation.

    OK TBMS, show us your stuff. Please reconcile the scriptures. God doesn't say one thing in one place and then something different in another. It appears your 2 Nephi scripture is at odds with Ephesians 2.

    Ready, set go!
    I am just a miserable sinner saved by grace, called according to His purposes, made righteous and holy by faith in Jesus and who can now boldly enter the throne room of heaven itself.

  • #2
    Originally posted by organgrinder View Post

    Well, since the TBMs here are too unwilling to exegete and interpret Biblical scripture, . . .
    Any thread or post that starts with that, is unworthy of further consideration or reply. Have a nice day.
    zerinus
    I am a Mormon!

    Comment


    • #3
      Did any TBM show willingness to execute the scriptural passages Yoda put down here? No? Then they WERE unwilling, weren't they? Statement of fact.
      "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
      "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
      ďItís easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
      "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
      "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
      "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by zerinus View Post

        Any thread or post that starts with that, is unworthy of further consideration or reply. Have a nice day.
        But you have been "unwilling". That is about as nicely as I can put it. It's your own scripture zerinius. You are to timid to tackle this? You guys huff and puff about a "restored gospel" and yet apparently when push comes to shove, run away from any defense of it. That is what I have seen.

        Bonnie is correct-- the FACT is that you TBMs are unwilling to engage in any exegesis regardless of whether it is the Bible, Book of Mormon or anything else. You guys apparently are all hat and no cattle.
        I am just a miserable sinner saved by grace, called according to His purposes, made righteous and holy by faith in Jesus and who can now boldly enter the throne room of heaven itself.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by organgrinder View Post

          But you have been "unwilling". That is about as nicely as I can put it. It's your own scripture zerinius. You are to timid to tackle this? You guys huff and puff about a "restored gospel" and yet apparently when push comes to shove, run away from any defense of it. That is what I have seen.

          Bonnie is correct-- the FACT is that you TBMs are unwilling to engage in any exegesis regardless of whether it is the Bible, Book of Mormon or anything else. You guys apparently are all hat and no cattle.
          If you want your questions answered, rephrase your questions, take out the ad-homs and snide remarks, and they will be answered.
          zerinus
          I am a Mormon!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by zerinus View Post

            If you want your questions answered, rephrase your questions, take out the ad-homs and snide remarks, and they will be answered.
            Show us you can answer a question.... any question. So far you TBMs havenít and use any excuse to evade giving an answer. As I said, all hat and no cattle.
            I am just a miserable sinner saved by grace, called according to His purposes, made righteous and holy by faith in Jesus and who can now boldly enter the throne room of heaven itself.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by zerinus View Post

              If you want your questions answered, rephrase your questions, take out the ad-homs and snide remarks, and they will be answered.
              There were no snide comments or "ad homs" in Yoda's posts, where he asked Mormons on here to exegete certain passages of scripture. Only one gave an attempt, though it wasn't verse by verse, just a summation. I thought there were too many threads started on that, but Mormons could have done one or two. So saying Mormons were "unwilling" to do so, is not an ad hom, but a factual observation. Obviously, they WERE unwilling to do so, based upon the fact that virtually none of them got exegeted by Mormons.
              "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
              "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
              ďItís easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
              "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
              "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
              "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by zerinus View Post

                If you want your questions answered, rephrase your questions, take out the ad-homs and snide remarks, and they will be answered.
                You must be lucky today.

                I can say that because you are posting as if you are a moderator, and no one has flagged you for that. You should understand by now that the mods are zealous about their privilege to tell people what to do here.

                Nevertheless, Bonnie is correct, and I agree with her that there were no ad hominems, nor snide remarks in the opening post..

                How the heck can you guys say things like "grace is free" if you we can easily find stuff like this in your official writings?
                .
                Each individual can also be saved from spiritual death by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ. This faith is manifested in a life of obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel and service to Christ.
                lds.org/scriptures/gs/salvation

                D&C 6: 13 If thou wilt do good, yea, and hold out faithful to the end, thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation.

                Moses 6:52 And he also said unto him: If thou wilt turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, and believe, and repent of all thy transgressions, and be baptized, even in water, in the name of mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth, which is Jesus Christ, the only name which shall be given under heaven, whereby salvation shall come unto the children of men, ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, asking all things in his name, and whatsoever ye shall ask, it shall be given you..

                AoF 1:3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
                .
                Please give us some credit! We have not fall from the turnip truck, but these (and other parts of your scriptures) repeatedly tell us that y'all believe that GRACE IS NOT FREE BECAUSE IT MUST BE EARNED.

                Thus, you are faced with an unanswerable dilemma because what y'all profess is at odds with your "other-than-the-Bible "holy books" and AoF unequivocally state :grace is merited; it is thus NOT FREE


                NOTICE
                This post has been examined by the ad hoc Committee on ad hominems, and is found to be free from any insults.
                MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

                1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

                2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

                3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

                4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by john t View Post

                  You must be lucky today.

                  I can say that because you are posting as if you are a moderator, and no one has flagged you for that. You should understand by now that the mods are zealous about their privilege to tell people what to do here.

                  Nevertheless, Bonnie is correct, and I agree with her that there were no ad hominems, nor snide remarks in the opening post..

                  How the heck can you guys say things like "grace is free" if you we can easily find stuff like this in your official writings?
                  .
                  Each individual can also be saved from spiritual death by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ. This faith is manifested in a life of obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel and service to Christ.
                  lds.org/scriptures/gs/salvation

                  D&C 6: 13 If thou wilt do good, yea, and hold out faithful to the end, thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation.

                  Moses 6:52 And he also said unto him: If thou wilt turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, and believe, and repent of all thy transgressions, and be baptized, even in water, in the name of mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth, which is Jesus Christ, the only name which shall be given under heaven, whereby salvation shall come unto the children of men, ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, asking all things in his name, and whatsoever ye shall ask, it shall be given you..

                  AoF 1:3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
                  .
                  Please give us some credit! We have not fall from the turnip truck, but these (and other parts of your scriptures) repeatedly tell us that y'all believe that GRACE IS NOT FREE BECAUSE IT MUST BE EARNED.

                  Thus, you are faced with an unanswerable dilemma because what y'all profess is at odds with your "other-than-the-Bible "holy books" and AoF unequivocally state :grace is merited; it is thus NOT FREE


                  NOTICE
                  This post has been examined by the ad hoc Committee on ad hominems, and is found to be free from any insults.
                  True faith in Jesus Christ IS manifested by obedience to Jesus Christ...But that obedience does not include MORMON ordinances, like temple works and ordinances and the covenants made therein. The thing is, by the time a person does to believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and God and Savior, he ALREADY HAS THE HOLY SPIRIT. For no one can have faith in Him until and unless the HS has worked faith in his heart, by the Gospel message.
                  "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                  "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                  ďItís easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                  "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                  "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                  "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by john t View Post

                    You must be lucky today.

                    I can say that because you are posting as if you are a moderator, and no one has flagged you for that. You should understand by now that the mods are zealous about their privilege to tell people what to do here.
                    Hmmm, me thinks you are the one who is trying to act as the moderator now, not me. Nevertheless, you are the lucky one here today, because I have decided to reply to your post anyway, even though it is questionable whether it deserves any.

                    D&C 6: 13 If thou wilt do good, yea, and hold out faithful to the end, thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation.
                    And how is that different from these:
                    Matthew 5:

                    43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
                    44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

                    Luke 6:

                    27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

                    Galatians 6:

                    9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
                    10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

                    1 Timothy 6:

                    17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
                    18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
                    19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

                    Hebrews 13:

                    16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

                    1 Peter 3:

                    10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
                    11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.

                    Colossians 1:

                    21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
                    22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
                    23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
                    Moses 6:52 And he also said unto him: If thou wilt turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, and believe, and repent of all thy transgressions, and be baptized, even in water, in the name of mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth, which is Jesus Christ, the only name which shall be given under heaven, whereby salvation shall come unto the children of men, ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, asking all things in his name, and whatsoever ye shall ask, it shall be given you..

                    AoF 1:3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
                    And how is that different from these:
                    Luke 13:

                    3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
                    * * *
                    5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

                    2 Peter 3:

                    9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

                    Mark 16:

                    15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
                    16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

                    Matthew 28:

                    19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
                    20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
                    Please give us some credit! We have not fall from the turnip truck, but these (and other parts of your scriptures) repeatedly tell us that y'all believe that GRACE IS NOT FREE BECAUSE IT MUST BE EARNED.

                    Thus, you are faced with an unanswerable dilemma because what y'all profess is at odds with your "other-than-the-Bible "holy books" and AoF unequivocally state :grace is merited; it is thus NOT FREE

                    NOTICE
                    This post has been examined by the ad hoc Committee on ad hominems, and is found to be free from any insults.
                    See above.
                    zerinus
                    I am a Mormon!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by zerinus View Post

                      Hmmm, me thinks you are the one who is trying to act as the moderator now, not me. Nevertheless, you are the lucky one here today, because I have decided to reply to your post anyway, even though it is questionable whether it deserves any.



                      And how is that different from these:
                      Matthew 5:

                      43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
                      44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

                      Luke 6:

                      27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

                      Galatians 6:

                      9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
                      10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

                      1 Timothy 6:

                      17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
                      18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
                      19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

                      Hebrews 13:

                      16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

                      1 Peter 3:

                      10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
                      11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.

                      Colossians 1:

                      21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
                      22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
                      23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
                      I see that you did w search on "do good". Thanks for the effort, and for the manner which you present it.

                      Unfortunately, the difference between what you are attempting to do fails due to Apologetic Axiom 1: In NONE of those verses are there any requirements to "do good" in order to merit salvation. Nowhere in the Bible is there a connection between "doing good works" and salvation. The reason for that is that salvation is a gift, and it is extraneous to earning salvation, as 2 Nephi 23:25 so clearly teaches.

                      No one denies that Christians are to do good works, but they are secondary, and a fruit of salvation received. . Because of the verses I produced from your scriptures and AoF, in Mormonism, good works are primary, and a CONDITION to your brand of salvation.


                      And how is that different from these:
                      Luke 13:

                      3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
                      * * *
                      5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

                      2 Peter 3:

                      9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

                      Mark 16:

                      15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
                      16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

                      Matthew 28:

                      19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
                      20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
                      See above.[/QUOTE]

                      Again, and for the same reasons, taking verses out of context, your attempt to prove me wrong fails. NONE of those mention salvation, and that is because, repentance is a fruit of, not a condition of salvation.

                      Grace ALWAYS proceeds salvation, and by definition grace is UNCONDITIONAL. That is what is so amazing about it. Truly, I wish that you guys and gals could see, understand and apply that crucial difference to your lives.
                      MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

                      1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

                      2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

                      3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

                      4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by john t View Post

                        I see that you did w search on "do good". Thanks for the effort, and for the manner which you present it.

                        Unfortunately, the difference between what you are attempting to do fails due to Apologetic Axiom 1: In NONE of those verses are there any requirements to "do good" in order to merit salvation.

                        <snip>
                        Then you didn't read them carefully enough. There are several verses there that specifically link those to salvation (and in the others it is implied, if not expressly stated). The first set of scriptures include the following:

                        Galatians 6:

                        9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall
                        reap, if we faint not.
                        10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

                        1 Timothy 6:

                        17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
                        18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
                        19
                        Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

                        The highlighted words specifically link doing good to salvation (and there are lots of other verses beside these that could be quoted that do just that). In the second set of scriptures there are more:

                        Luke 13:

                        3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye
                        repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
                        * * *
                        5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye
                        repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

                        2 Peter 3:

                        9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that
                        any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

                        Mark 16:

                        15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
                        16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be
                        saved; but he that believeth not [and consequently not baptized] shall be damned.

                        In all of these verses obedience, doing good, and keeping God's commandments are linked to salvation. To "perish" is the opposite of being "saved". And the number of verses in the Bible that directly link obedience and keeping God's commandments to salvation is legion. I had selected these specific ones because they are more directly related to the verses in LDS scripture that you had critiqued. If you want general statements in the Bible that directly link obedience, repentance, and keeping God's commandments to salvation, they are legion. The Bible is full of them, both Old and New Testaments. "Faith alone" is the doctrine of the devil. It is Satanic. It is an abomination in the sight of God. It is the theology of damnation, not salvation.
                        zerinus
                        I am a Mormon!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by zerinus View Post

                          Then you didn't read them carefully enough. There are several verses there that specifically link those to salvation (and in the others it is implied, if not expressly stated). The first set of scriptures include the following:

                          Galatians 6:

                          9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall
                          reap, if we faint not.
                          10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

                          1 Timothy 6:

                          17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
                          18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
                          19
                          Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

                          The highlighted words specifically link doing good to salvation (and there are lots of other verses beside these that could be quoted that do just that). In the second set of scriptures there are more:

                          Luke 13:

                          3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye
                          repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
                          * * *
                          5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye
                          repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

                          2 Peter 3:

                          9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that
                          any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

                          Mark 16:

                          15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
                          16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be
                          saved; but he that believeth not [and consequently not baptized] shall be damned.

                          In all of these verses obedience, doing good, and keeping God's commandments are linked to salvation. To "perish" is the opposite of being "saved". And the number of verses in the Bible that directly link obedience and keeping God's commandments to salvation is legion. I had selected these specific ones because they are more directly related to the verses in LDS scripture that you had critiqued. If you want general statements in the Bible that directly link obedience, repentance, and keeping God's commandments to salvation, they are legion. The Bible is full of them, both Old and New Testaments. "Faith alone" is the doctrine of the devil. It is Satanic. It is an abomination in the sight of God. It is the theology of damnation, not salvation.
                          And the problem is, zerinius, you do not understand grace and have apparently no clue as to what commandments God requires us to keep biblically. Your church, and many others, unfortunately, require you to ADD works to the free salvation God has given to us by FAITH in Christ Jesus. That is what Ephesians 2:8-9 are all about. Verse 10 is about "works" and doing good that RESULT of that free gift of salvation. The evidence of a real faith. Your church says to add to it and specifically in the scripture of 2 Nephi quoted in the original post, you need to do "all you can do" (whatever that is-- and it will never be enough) BEFORE you receive grace to salvation.

                          You haven't dealt with the original scriptures and what you did post as John T correctly said, are scriptures out of context. You have failed to deal with the fundamental issue here. Try it again, please.
                          I am just a miserable sinner saved by grace, called according to His purposes, made righteous and holy by faith in Jesus and who can now boldly enter the throne room of heaven itself.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by organgrinder View Post

                            And the problem is, zerinius, you do not understand grace and have apparently no clue as to what commandments God requires us to keep biblically. Your church, and many others, unfortunately, require you to ADD works to the free salvation God has given to us by FAITH in Christ Jesus. That is what Ephesians 2:8-9 are all about. Verse 10 is about "works" and doing good that RESULT of that free gift of salvation. The evidence of a real faith. Your church says to add to it and specifically in the scripture of 2 Nephi quoted in the original post, you need to do "all you can do" (whatever that is-- and it will never be enough) BEFORE you receive grace to salvation.

                            You haven't dealt with the original scriptures and what you did post as John T correctly said, are scriptures out of context. You have failed to deal with the fundamental issue here. Try it again, please.
                            OOPS!

                            We both missed this one he posted:
                            .
                            Mark 16:

                            15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
                            16
                            He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he thatbelieveth not [and consequently not baptized] shall be damned
                            .
                            @Zerinius, your choice of quoting these verses demonstrates that you are unfamiliar with textural criticism. Let me make it simple. The verses from mark 16:8 to the end are highly suspect of being additions to the original text by someone other than Mark. I spare you the details except to say that that section also forms the basis for those in the "Appalachian rattle snake churches". As a result, we do not take them seriously.

                            HOWEVER it is also clear to us that you missed the parts that I made bold green , which precede and create the conditions whereby one has salvation or damnation and that is SIMPLE BELIEF.The bottom line is that that while we recognize that this section is extra-canonical, the author did get it right about the importance of SIMPLE BELIEF.

                            BTW the definition of "belief" is "intellectual assent to facts" and is therefore not a "work" such as would be the case in baptism, as y'all LDS people practice it.

                            Yes indeed, Organgrinder is correct; you have NOT dealt with the Scriptures in their context. (Great minds think alike! ..)
                            MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

                            1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

                            2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

                            3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

                            4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by john t View Post

                              OOPS!

                              We both missed this one he posted:

                              <snip>
                              EDIT PER MOD

                              In the Bible baptism is requirement, not optional:


                              Acts 29:

                              1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
                              2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
                              3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto Johnís baptism.
                              4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
                              5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
                              6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
                              7 And all the men were about twelve.


                              If baptism was optional, why did they need to be baptized again, since they had already received John's baptism? There are plenty more. Here is another:

                              Ephesians 4:

                              5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,


                              It doesn't say, "One Lord, one faith --- but don't worry too much about baptism, you can skip that if you like." LOL! Here is one more:

                              1 Peter 3:

                              21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


                              There are still plenty more. EDIT PER MOD
                              Last edited by 4Him; 04-16-19, 03:46 PM.
                              zerinus
                              I am a Mormon!

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