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  • Originally posted by BrotherofJared View Post
    Where did God bury him? Who saw God bury him? Who is the witness that God buried Moses?

    But besides all that, I was referring to falling like one of the princes.


    He didn't die.
    Moses went up into a mountain and didn't come back down. That translates into death for most men, but no one was there to see his body or to put it in the ground. We believe that, like Elijah, Moses was taken into heaven, the same as was Enoch.

    That answer was given in the context of your question. I know they weren't exalted men. I know that they are beings in heaven sitting in divine council. Outside of that, the psalm doesn't state, so the question, "what kind of gods are these" is simply, I don't know. The passage doesn't state.

    All the while ignoring that when God called Moses a god, it was to a specific person. It was a comparative statement. In Ps 82, God is not comparing them to some other being. He didn't say, "ye are gods to bicycle pumps..." or any other being or object. They are not the same statements, Bonnie. But I can see that you will continue using it as a definition when it doesn't match the context. It suits your purpose.

    No, Bonnie. I am literally just using the context of Ps 82. You are bringing in unrelated context.


    I answered that question here. It seems that arguments with you guys just go round and round in circles.

    This is what I believe we believe.

    This is what I believe we believe.

    I believe he was wrong.

    Nope. He wasn't messed up. He was just wrong.

    I believe you stated earlier that when God calls someone a god, that makes him a god (paraphrasing). Well, God called Moses a "god". Doesn't matter that the situation is different--in both the Exodus and Ps. 82 verses, God calls humans "god/gods." But you admitted Moses wasn't a god. Well neither are the "gods" in Ps. 82.

    AND GOD'S WORD SAYS THAT MOSES DIED. Yet, you deny that! More denying of God's holy word! Why do you do so?

    The Scriptures plainly say where God buried Moses:

    6 And He buried him in the valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth-peor; but no man knows his burial place to this day.
    He was BURIED. And you ask who saw God bury Moses...well, God did. And He inspired the scribe to record what happened, in Deuteronomy 34.

    And no, you are not just using the content of Ps. 82, though you may think so. I think you denied these "gods" were judges. But I proved FROM THE CONTEXT that they were:

    How long will you JUDGE unjustly
    And show partiality to the wicked? Selah.
    3 Vindicate the weak and fatherless;
    Do justice to the afflicted and destitute.
    4 Rescue the weak and needy;
    Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked
    These so-called "gods" in Psalm 82 were JUDGING and doing so UNJUSTLY. Did you not see the word "judge" there in verse 3? Mormon glasses on? SO--if they were truly deities then:

    1. Why did they judge UNJUSTLY and favor the wicked? That would be sinful, would it not? Wouldn't that make them demons, like Satan and his ilk?
    2. HOW would they judge people on earth (and that IS where this judgment is taking place)?
    3. WHERE would the people find these deities, to ask them to render judgment?
    4. WHERE would this judgments take place? On a mountain? Plain? In a building? WHERE?

    The time of being RULED by judges, like Deborah and Gideon, and Samuel, was past and Israel at this time had kings, but Israel still had people who judged on behalf of the King and in his name. Or do you think the king handled every single dispute in Israel, no matter how petty and minor? Remember, Isaiah 1 and 56 mention rulers who judged unjustly and took bribes. And Jesus told the parable of the widow and the unjust judge. And Exodus 21-23 deals with dispensing justice and judging righteously. And those doing so were human judges. ALL of these things are pertinent to Ps. 82 because the Bible needs to be dealt with and read as a whole and all of it taken into account. And when these verses are taken into account--plus, all of the verses that say there is ONLY ONE GOD--then these "gods" in Ps. 82 are human judges judging in God's name--who did a lousy job of it. Who had to be exhorted to judge righteously and be reminded that they were still mortal and would "die like a man" and "fall like any prince." Despite their lofty position and power.

    No, Talmage was spot on--about the only time I have ever agreed with a Mormon on Biblical interpretation. At least he was able to think outside the Mormon box.
    "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
    "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
    “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
    "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
    "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

    Comment


    • Okay, BoJ, you wrote this on the other post of yours, in the link:

      Two problems, 1, how can Jesus be God before he was resurrected or 2. be exalted without being resurrected?

      What is your definition of these terms? For that matter, what's your definition of being a god? Maybe your definition is not the same as God's, but this is my definition and it's really simple. If God says ye are gods and children of the most High, then they are gods and children of the most High. I'm not going to argue with that. You apparently are going to. I suggest you take your argument to God.

      One thing is clear, they cannot be resurrected beings since they will die like men, that is, unless you think your all powerful God can change his mind about what the resurrection means. In which case, how can we believe anything he says if the's going to change his mind about the resurrection. Is the resurrection a reality because God allows it or because God has given us the power to maintain that resurrected state ourselves? In other words, does resurrections effects depend on God to remain in effect?
      To answer your questions about Jesus: Jesus can be God because He is the eternal Word of God:

      John 1 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

      The Deity of Jesus Christ


      1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.... The Word Made Flesh


      14 And the Word became flesh, and [k]dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of [l]the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me [m]has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth [p]were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
      So, your question is based upon a foolish premise--that someone must be resurrected in order to be deity. But that is false. Jesus was and is fully God BEFORE HIS INCARNATION, DEATH, AND RESURRECTION. Unlike your church's puny god, who is nothing more than an exalted human being, only a little farther up the spiritual evolutionary ladder than we mortals are.

      And Jesus had all the glory His Father had, BEFORE His incarnation. Because in His High Priestly prayer in John 17, He says "Father, glorify Me with the glory I HAD WITH YOU, before the world was." When Jesus rose victorious from the dead, He got back all of the glory He had emptied Himself of when He was in a state of humiliation as a human being, in the likeness of sinful flesh, though He was and is without sin.

      So, THAT is how Jesus can be God BEFORE He was resurrected from the dead. Because He is and was the Word of God from all eternity, Who was with God and IS GOD. Not like the limited weak God of Mormonism!

      So, these "gods" of Ps. 82 are not resurrected beings....How then can they be deity, IF they had not yet been resurrected, according to Mormon theology? I thought your church teaches that A. All of us were first the spirit children of your god and some exalted mother, in the pre-mortal existence, who then B. Have their spirit selves put into human bodies on earth, who then C. Go through this life and face all the trials inherent in being human. and D. If they jump through all of the Mormon hoops and do temple works and are temple worthy at death, they will E. become gods and create worlds and populate them with their own spirit children in the CK after death....

      SOOOOOO...if these beings in Ps. 82 were never resurrected--THEN HOW CAN THEY BE DEITIES? How can they be gods? You say you believe what God says....but DO YOU? Do YOU believe ALL of those verses where God Himself declares that HE ALONE IS GOD and there is NO GOD APART FROM HIM?

      So, you say if God says someone is a god, then that means they must be a god...right? Well from the KJV, Exodus 7:1:

      "And the Lord said unto Moses, “See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh, and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
      So, God must have actually made Moses a god--right? Since it says so, right here. Yet, you said that Moses wasn't really a god. Disagreeing with God? Horrors! But you also deny that Moses died. He didn't go bodily to heaven as Enoch and Elijah did. He DIED and God BURIED HIM. Humans die like men, don't they, BoJ?

      It seems you are trying to have it both ways. You cannot, BoJ. Either believe ALL of God's word, or NONE of it. You cannot just believe the parts you like and reject the parts you don't like, because they violate Mormon theology.

      Better to believe the Bible than the lies promulgated by your church leadership and lying false prophet founder. Better to believe God over man.
      "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
      "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
      “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
      "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
      "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
        So, these "gods" of Ps. 82 are not resurrected beings....How then can they be deity, IF they had not yet been resurrected, according to Mormon theology?
        Just a note here, Bonnie:

        The LDS believe Jesus Christ was the God of the OT--before He was resurrected.

        Where are you arriving at the conclusion it is LDS theology one must be resurrected to be deity?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by BrotherofJared View Post
          I am denying that Moses died. But my answer originally was to the fall like one of the princes part.


          There is a part of us that never dies as well. Bonnie, when we die, our spirits continue to live and learn. If it can live after death, why can't it live before birth?
          You deny Moses died, yet the scriptures say otherwise as has been quoted. again. not reading for comprehension once again. It doesn't get much plainer in the text yet you deny it. Congratulations!

          Try again.

          Deut 34:5-8
          So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord.
          6 And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor; but no one knows his grave to this day.
          7 Moses was one hundred and twenty years old when he died. His eyes were not dim nor his natural vigor diminished.
          8 And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days. So the days of weeping and mourning for Moses ended.
          NKJV
          I am just a miserable sinner saved by grace, called according to His purposes, made righteous and holy by faith in Jesus and who can now boldly enter the throne room of heaven itself.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by organgrinder View Post

            You deny Moses died, yet the scriptures say otherwise as has been quoted. again. not reading for comprehension once again. It doesn't get much plainer in the text yet you deny it. Congratulations!

            Try again.

            Deut 34:5-8
            So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord.
            6 And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor; but no one knows his grave to this day.
            7 Moses was one hundred and twenty years old when he died. His eyes were not dim nor his natural vigor diminished.
            8 And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days. So the days of weeping and mourning for Moses ended.
            NKJV
            They also used to deny that the apostle John died.
            "You have just constructed a straw man so large you could burn it in the desert and hold an annoying festival around it"


            "One's personal world view can be so powerful that it blinds them to any evidence that contradicts it"

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

              I am aware that we have souls that survive death--we Christians all believe that--but that isn't what the Deuteronomy passages are talking about.
              My statement wasn't about the Deuteronomy passages. I was making an observation about the existence of spirits. It only makes sense that if our spirits live without our bodies after death, they could also live without our bodies before birth. It's just common sense. You have to at least admit that the possibility exists. Well, you don't have to but it is common sense.

              Basically, Bonnie, we believe that we follow the same course that Christ did. Spirit to mortal, to spirit to resurrected being.

              They say, as OG quoted, that MOSES DIED and God buried him.
              I don't believe he did. No one saw him die. No one buried him. No one knows where he was buried. When men die, like men, they are usually buried by other mortals. At least, in that part, Moses did not die like men. But I don't believe he died. I believe he was taken up into heaven like Elijah was, however; there was no witness... There was no witness to his death or to being taken up into heaven. Basically, the Bible makes an assumption based on the fact that Moses went up into the mountain and did not come back down. The basis for their assumption is obvious, but Moses' actual death is not. I also think it takes a little common sense when one reads the Bible as well.
              Did God bury the immortal soul--or the mortal body--of Moses?
              God didn't bury anyone. Bonnie, who saw God bury Moses? Who saw Moses die? Who saw where Moses was buried? Guess what, Bonnie. Moses isn't buried anywhere by anyone because he didn't die. At any rate, he did not die like men.

              Moses DIED LIKE A MAN
              False
              and FELL LIKE ANY PRINCE.
              False

              "...for now is our salvation nearer to us than when we believed." Romans 13:11 -- What else must be done to move past belief? Faith is belief in action. It is works unto salvation.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

                These so-called "gods" in Psalm 82 were JUDGING
                Yes, they were judging, but that doesn't make them "judges". Anyone can judge Bonnie.

                The time of being RULED by judges, like Deborah and Gideon, and Samuel, was past and Israel at this time had kings
                Yes. That's basically what I said.
                but Israel still had people who judged on behalf of the King and in his name.
                Prove it.
                Or do you think the king handled every single dispute in Israel, no matter how petty and minor?
                I don't think anyone was judging for the king, no matter how minor.
                Remember, Isaiah 1 and 56 mention rulers who judged unjustly and took bribes.
                No. That's what you remember, but it doesn't matter what the scriptures actually say. It appears that you prefer to paraphrase since your paraphrases work so much better than the actual context. Bonnie, "EVERYONE loves a bribe". That's a quote Bonnie, not a paraphrase. Is 1:23.
                ALL of these things are pertinent to Ps. 82 because the Bible needs to be dealt with and read as a whole and all of it taken into account.
                They are only pertinent because Isaiah used Ps 82 and it appears that he clearly defined that everyone is a judge and everyone who judges unjustly, regardless of their title may fall like one of the princes. Everyone judges, not just human judges or rulers -- Everyone.

                "...for now is our salvation nearer to us than when we believed." Romans 13:11 -- What else must be done to move past belief? Faith is belief in action. It is works unto salvation.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                  Okay, BoJ, you wrote this on the other post of yours, in the link:
                  Two problems, 1, how can Jesus be God before he was resurrected or 2. be exalted without being resurrected?

                  What is your definition of these terms? For that matter, what's your definition of being a god? Maybe your definition is not the same as God's, but this is my definition and it's really simple. If God says ye are gods and children of the most High, then they are gods and children of the most High. I'm not going to argue with that. You apparently are going to. I suggest you take your argument to God.

                  One thing is clear, they cannot be resurrected beings since they will die like men, that is, unless you think your all powerful God can change his mind about what the resurrection means. In which case, how can we believe anything he says if the's going to change his mind about the resurrection. Is the resurrection a reality because God allows it or because God has given us the power to maintain that resurrected state ourselves? In other words, does resurrections effects depend on God to remain in effect?
                  To answer your questions about Jesus: Jesus can be God because He is the eternal Word of God:
                  My question, Bonnie, was an attempt to get you to clarify your question: "How can they be gods, IF they have not been resurrected and exalted?"

                  So, your question is based upon a foolish premise
                  The premise was based on a theory that you didn't even know what you were asking. That's why I asked you "what is your definition of these terms". Now, I have to wonder if you even know what terms I was referring too.

                  So, THAT is how Jesus can be God BEFORE He was resurrected from the dead. Because He is and was the Word of God from all eternity, Who was with God and IS GOD.
                  All of which is irrelevant. I pointed you tot that link because I stated in that post who I thought these gods were.

                  So, these "gods" of Ps. 82 are not resurrected beings....How then can they be deity, IF they had not yet been resurrected, according to Mormon theology?
                  Your question is based on a false premise. You think we believe that one can only become a god after they are resurrected. That is not what we believe. If you had read my link, you'd know that... or maybe you wouldn't.

                  I thought your church teaches that A. All of us were first the spirit children of your god and some exalted mother, in the pre-mortal existence
                  Nope.
                  who then B. Have their spirit selves put into human bodies on earth,
                  You mean like Jesus was born in a body? Then yes.
                  who then C. Go through this life and face all the trials inherent in being human.
                  Like Jesus did? Then yes.
                  nd D. If they jump through all of the Mormon hoops and do temple works and are temple worthy at death,
                  Nope.
                  hey will E. become gods
                  Nope.
                  and create worlds and populate them with their own spirit children in the CK after death....
                  And Fail.

                  Better to believe the Bible
                  I do believe the Bible.

                  "...for now is our salvation nearer to us than when we believed." Romans 13:11 -- What else must be done to move past belief? Faith is belief in action. It is works unto salvation.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by desertscout View Post

                    They also used to deny that the apostle John died.
                    We still do.
                    "...for now is our salvation nearer to us than when we believed." Romans 13:11 -- What else must be done to move past belief? Faith is belief in action. It is works unto salvation.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by BrotherofJared View Post

                      My question, Bonnie, was an attempt to get you to clarify your question: "How can they be gods, IF they have not been resurrected and exalted?"


                      The premise was based on a theory that you didn't even know what you were asking. That's why I asked you "what is your definition of these terms". Now, I have to wonder if you even know what terms I was referring too.


                      All of which is irrelevant. I pointed you tot that link because I stated in that post who I thought these gods were.


                      Your question is based on a false premise. You think we believe that one can only become a god after they are resurrected. That is not what we believe. If you had read my link, you'd know that... or maybe you wouldn't.


                      Nope.

                      You mean like Jesus was born in a body? Then yes.

                      Like Jesus did? Then yes.

                      Nope.

                      Nope.

                      And Fail.


                      I do believe the Bible.
                      Once again, we have a Mormon that doesn't know what its church teaches in some areas. We have been through this before, about heavenly mother having spirit children, not physical children. Both Markk and I proved from your church's official writings that it teaches she and heavenly father have spirit children, who then inhabit mortal bodies on earth.

                      Gospel Through the Ages by Milton Hunter has this:

                      In the first stage, man was an eternally existent being termed an intelligence.... The next realm where man dwelt was the spirit world. According to Mormon concept eternally-existing intelligences were clothed with spirit bodies in the mansion of their Eternal Father... numerous sons and daughters were begotten and born of HEAVENLY PARENTS into that eternal family in the spirit world... There in the spirit world they were reared to maturity, becoming grown spirit men and women prior to coming upon this earth... Following his stay in the spirit world, man comes on earth... Here he receives a physical body and undergoes the experiences of mortality... Eventually, however, mortal death comes upon all. The eternal spirit goes to the spirit world to await resurrection and judgment... There they shall be assigned to the glory that they have merited... some will receive telestial glory; others terrestrial, while those who are recorded in 'the Lamb's book of life' will enter celestial glory. There some of them will become angels, and others priests and Kings, or in other words Gods (G.T.A., pp. 127-129).
                      "Becoming GROWN SPIRIT MEN AND WOMEN." NOT physical children. For if they are physical children of heavenly father and mother, how then, would they inhabit mortal bodies on earth?

                      Your church has a brief essay about this:

                      https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/...rents?lang=eng

                      This is why I have a hard time taking seriously what you say about my knowledge of what your church teaches.

                      Jesus as a man was born in a body, but His birth is entirely unique. He was born of a virgin, by the power of the Holy Spirit--no one else on earth can make that claim.BUT He WAS ALREADY GOD WHEN HE BECAME MAN. Your church teaches that the pre-Incarnate Jesus is Jehovah of the OT. That is NOT what your church teaches about human beings who become gods AFTER they are exalted to the highest level of the CK. Jesus was ALREADY FULLY GOD when He was incarnated in Mary's womb.

                      And I did prove that Israel--or Judah--had people who judged under the kings. It is in the Isaiah verses. Isaiah existed at the time of the kings of Judah. Do you need to see those verses again? Here they are:

                      Isaiah 1:

                      Your rulers are rebels
                      And companions of thieves;
                      Everyone loves a bribe
                      And chases after rewards.
                      They do not defend the orphan,
                      Nor does the widow’s plea come before them...
                      How the faithful city has become a harlot,
                      She who was full of justice!
                      Righteousness once lodged in her,
                      But now murderers.
                      While this chapter is about Judah as a whole, it still mentions RULERS who are corrupt, who do not defend the orphan or widows. Rulers are and were human beings.

                      And yes, your church teaches that at Exaltation into the highest level of the CK, men become gods and creators of worlds. Your own founding prophet taught that in his King Follett sermon. Your church teaches that in its Young Women's Manual 2, lesson 29, that reads "Exaltation is Worth All Our Efforts." I would have to find it again, since your church's website has changed. But Markk had this on here several years ago, that I archived:

                      What blessings await those who live worthy of exaltation? (Godhood, having all things subject to them, having angels subject to them, having all power, living with Jesus.) Point out that just as Jesus Christ was promised all that the Father has, we can also receive all power and dominion, becoming creators of other spirits and other worlds.

                      https://www.lds.org/manual/young-wom...ation?lang=eng

                      From the Young Women's Manual 2, lesson 29. And scroll down in the link to where it says "Exaltation is Worth All our Efforts."

                      And Markk put this down on the "Interesting course at BYU" thread:

                      1. Gospel Principles chapter 47. (LDS teaching manual LDS . org)

                      5. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge

                      2. Gospel Fundamentals chapter 36 (LDS teaching manual LDS . org)

                      "They will receive everything our Father in Heaven has and will become like Him. They will even be able to have spirit children and make new worlds for them to live on, and do all the things our Father in Heaven has done."
                      Is your church's teaching manual wrong? Was the young woman's manual wrong? (the link probably doesn't work anymore, since your church redid its website)

                      So, no I did not fail. And if you believe the Bible, why don't you believe ALL if it--like the verses that say there is ONLY ONE GOD in heaven and earth?

                      As for asking me to define terms, I am not sure I remember what terms you mean--God? Why would I need to define HIM? It is obvious from the Bible Who and What God is--the unique almighty, UNCREATED, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent creator of the universe. He alone is God; none came before Him and none will be formed after Him. He is Lord and God of heaven and earth.

                      Now, please answer my questions about the "gods" of Ps. 82, that I asked in post no. 1159. Whoo! Didn't know this thread has gotten so long....
                      "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                      "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                      “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                      "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                      "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by BrotherofJared View Post
                        My statement wasn't about the Deuteronomy passages. I was making an observation about the existence of spirits. It only makes sense that if our spirits live without our bodies after death, they could also live without our bodies before birth. It's just common sense. You have to at least admit that the possibility exists. Well, you don't have to but it is common sense.

                        Basically, Bonnie, we believe that we follow the same course that Christ did. Spirit to mortal, to spirit to resurrected being.

                        I don't believe he did. No one saw him die. No one buried him. No one knows where he was buried. When men die, like men, they are usually buried by other mortals. At least, in that part, Moses did not die like men. But I don't believe he died. I believe he was taken up into heaven like Elijah was, however; there was no witness... There was no witness to his death or to being taken up into heaven. Basically, the Bible makes an assumption based on the fact that Moses went up into the mountain and did not come back down. The basis for their assumption is obvious, but Moses' actual death is not. I also think it takes a little common sense when one reads the Bible as well.

                        God didn't bury anyone. Bonnie, who saw God bury Moses? Who saw Moses die? Who saw where Moses was buried? Guess what, Bonnie. Moses isn't buried anywhere by anyone because he didn't die. At any rate, he did not die like men.


                        False

                        False
                        So, God is incapable of physically burying anyone? Maybe the Mormon god is too puny and weak to do that, but the almighty God of the Bible is NOT. An d no on had to see God bury Moses for it to be true. GOD did it and GOD had the scribe record it, in Deuteronomy.

                        You are desperately trying to deny the clear words of the Bible. You have claimed that you believe the Bible, yet you do not believe the Deuteronomy verses. Therefore, your declaration is an idle one. Why even Smith's execrable "translation" of the bible has Moses dying and God burying him, as OG proved.

                        We are not talking about our immortal souls here--of course they do not die--but about the physical body of Moses. God's word said that Moses DIED and God BURIED HIM. Can one bury a spirit?

                        No, your boast that you believe the Bible is a bankrupt one. God said He would make Moses a god to Pharaoh. And you admit that Moses wasn't really deity (paraphrasing). But God's word clearly says that MOSES DIED. He was a man who DIED LIKE A MAN. You said you believe the Bible. So, start believing ALL of it, not just the parts you like.
                        "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                        "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                        “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                        "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                        "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by BrotherofJared View Post

                          Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

                          I am aware that we have souls that survive death--we Christians all believe that--but that isn't what the Deuteronomy passages are talking about.



                          My statement wasn't about the Deuteronomy passages. I was making an observation about the existence of spirits. It only makes sense that if our spirits live without our bodies after death, they could also live without our bodies before birth. It's just common sense. You have to at least admit that the possibility exists. Well, you don't have to but it is common sense.
                          Basically, Bonnie, we believe that we follow the same course that Christ did. Spirit to mortal, to spirit to resurrected being.



                          They say, as OG quoted, that MOSES DIED and God buried him.

                          I don't believe he did. No one saw him die. No one buried him. No one knows where he was buried. When men die, like men, they are usually buried by other mortals. At least, in that part, Moses did not die like men. But I don't believe he died. I believe he was taken up into heaven like Elijah was, however; there was no witness... There was no witness to his death or to being taken up into heaven. Basically, the Bible makes an assumption based on the fact that Moses went up into the mountain and did not come back down. The basis for their assumption is obvious, but Moses' actual death is not. I also think it takes a little common sense when one reads the Bible as well.


                          Did God bury the immortal soul--or the mortal body--of Moses?

                          God didn't bury anyone. Bonnie, who saw God bury Moses? Who saw Moses die? Who saw where Moses was buried? Guess what, Bonnie. Moses isn't buried anywhere by anyone because he didn't die. At any rate, he did not die like men.



                          Moses DIED LIKE A MAN

                          False


                          and FELL LIKE ANY PRINCE.

                          False
                          So BOJ, even though you have claimed before that you believe scripture, you don't as witnessed by your statements. You don't even believe what your "prophet" Joseph Smith wrote when he revised scripture in his inspired translation. That has been quoted, also. If you can't read plain language which is very easy to understand, you have no ability to explain....anything. Your words will ring hollow because you have no foundation on which to make your statements. You don't even accept what your "prophets" wrote.

                          Can't have it both ways.
                          Last edited by organgrinder; 11-08-19, 11:33 AM.
                          I am just a miserable sinner saved by grace, called according to His purposes, made righteous and holy by faith in Jesus and who can now boldly enter the throne room of heaven itself.

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                          • Originally posted by desertscout View Post

                            They also used to deny that the apostle John died.
                            I find it amazing that so many of the LDS beliefs change as often as the wind changes direction.
                            MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

                            1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

                            2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

                            3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

                            4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Bonnie View Post So, as per your last paragraph--I would like to know your opinion on this, which is why I asked. Yes, I do think Mormon theology is totally messed up and and blasphemous heresy--but would still like to know what or who you think these "gods" are. So ,what does your church believe about these "gods" in Ps. 82? Has the leadership told you?
                              Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post
                              The Biblical writers defined the gods as the "sons of God".

                              Deuteronomy 32:8 ---New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
                              8 When the Most High apportioned the nations,
                              when he divided humankind,
                              he fixed the boundaries of the peoples
                              according to the number of the gods;

                              Deuteronomy 32:8--- English Standard Version (ESV)

                              8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
                              when he divided mankind,
                              he fixed the borders of the peoples
                              according to the number of the sons of God.
                              Bump for anyone

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by BrotherofJared View Post

                                We still do.
                                Where does the Bible teach us that John the Apostle never died?
                                "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                                "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                                “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                                "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                                "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

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