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Do Mormons believe in Total Depravity?

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  • Do Mormons believe in Total Depravity?

    I'm looking for input from both sides.

    To Calvinists: Am I understanding Total Depravity correctly?

    To Mormons: Based on the scriptures below, it seems to describe Total Depravity. Is this something we can find agreement on with Calvinists?


    1 Ne 10:6 - Wherefore, all mankind were in a lost and in a fallen state, and ever would be save they should rely on this Redeemer.

    Mosiah 3:19 - For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

    Alma 41:11 - And now, my son, all men that are in a state of nature, or I would say, in a carnal state, are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; they are without God in the world, and they have gone contrary to the nature of God; therefore, they are in a state contrary to the nature of happiness.

    Ether 3:2 - O Lord, thou hast said that we must be encompassed about by the floods. Now behold, O Lord, and do not be angry with thy servant because of his weakness before thee; for we know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens, and that we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually; nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee, that from thee we may receive according to our desires.




  • #2
    Answer: No, there are insurmountable differences. Tulipians believe, as part of their false soteriology, that all us humans since Adam have a HEREDITARY "sin nature" and that Adam (not Eve, for some odd reason) is to BLAME for that. Furthermore, Tulipians believe that it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to CHOOSE to do good--again, because this "sin nature" that "is in our very DNA" removes any free will that we could possibly use to choose good over evil--and, actually, they believe that we are unable to even WANT to choose good.

    Such blasphemous, unBiblical heresies make all the difference in the world between LDS doctrine and the infamous TULIP.
    A useful lie would not be against God..Satan can completely assume human form-we may lie with the Devil in the shape of a woman..women may think that a man is in bed with them yet ’tis the Devil; the result is an imp,half mortal,half devil (Luther)

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Aaron32 View Post
      I'm looking for input from both sides.

      To Calvinists: Am I understanding Total Depravity correctly?

      To Mormons: Based on the scriptures below, it seems to describe Total Depravity. Is this something we can find agreement on with Calvinists?


      1 Ne 10:6 - Wherefore, all mankind were in a lost and in a fallen state, and ever would be save they should rely on this Redeemer.

      Mosiah 3:19 - For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

      Alma 41:11 - And now, my son, all men that are in a state of nature, or I would say, in a carnal state, are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; they are without God in the world, and they have gone contrary to the nature of God; therefore, they are in a state contrary to the nature of happiness.

      Ether 3:2 - O Lord, thou hast said that we must be encompassed about by the floods. Now behold, O Lord, and do not be angry with thy servant because of his weakness before thee; for we know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens, and that we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually; nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee, that from thee we may receive according to our desires.
      .

      Quite honestly, and without any personal rancor towards towards you, it is impossible for a Mormon to understand the depth and permanence of one's depravity.

      I can say that because Scripture tells us that those who are not born-again Christians (meaning all LDS, and others not Evangelical Christians) that you are spiritually blinded, and unable to see spiritual truths. It is also impossible because at every LDS funeral, the deceased is declared to be a "worthy Mormon" by the officiant Nevertheless, I shall endeavor to demonstrate three things:
      1. Because you are a Mormon, (aka non-Christian) you cannot understand total depravity
      2. Because your religion is one of works, and not of grace you cannot understand how the mercy and grace of Jesus Christ combine to alleviate the scope and extent of depravity.
      3. And unless one works from the viewpoint of God, as opposed to humanity's viewpoint of themselves, no one can see their own depravity.
      POINT THREE

      Romans tells us that we are naturally under the power of our guilt because we all have sinned; therefore death reigns in us, and the wrath of God is inescapable.
      .
      Romans 3:9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,
      10 as it is written:

      “None is righteous, no, not one;
      11 no one understands; no one seeks for God

      Romans 3:. 19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.
      20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

      Romans 5:17 For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
      18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
      19 For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous

      20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
      21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. [This is Adam's sin applied to all mankind]
      God made Adam, the first man, to be representative as a federal head, so that his one sin of disobedience is imputed unto all of humanity, without exception and conversely, so that in like manner, he finished work of Jesus Christ would be imputed upon all of God's elect.

      POINT TWO

      Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints fervently believe in salvation through grace and works. The Book of Mormon states, “For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23)

      The main idea of the term, “grace,” is divine means of help or strength, given through the love of the Lord Jesus Christ (Bible Dictionary, Grace). This assistance is available to all those who desire to pattern themselves after the Savior. It is not a substitute for our own effort or conscientious obedience;
      //bookofmormononline.com
      .

      POINT ONE
      .
      2 Corinthians 4: 3 and if also our good news is veiled, in those perishing it is veiled,
      4 in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God;
      5 for not ourselves do we preach, but Christ Jesus--Lord, and ourselves your servants because of Jesus;
      6 because it is God who said, Out of darkness light is to shine, who did shine in our hearts, for the enlightening of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ
      You may use some of the same words as do Christians to describe your gods, but we both know that there is world of difference between your "father god" and the God of the Bible. We both know that the Snow Couplet is not found in the Bible, and the Jesus mentioned in the BoM, etc was "exalted into godhood" but in the Bible, Jesus Christ is all God, and all human simultaneously.

      Thus points 1, 2 and 3 are all established.
      MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

      1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

      2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

      3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

      4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Aaron32 View Post
        Quite honestly, and without any personal rancor towards towards you, it is impossible for a Mormon to understand the depth and permanence of one's depravity.

        I can say that because Scripture tells us that those who are not born-again Christians (meaning all LDS, and others not Evangelical Christians) that you are spiritually blinded, and unable to see spiritual truths. It is also impossible because at every LDS funeral, the deceased is declared to be a "worthy Mormon" by the officiant Nevertheless, I shall endeavor to demonstrate three things:
        1. Because you are a Mormon, (aka non-Christian) you cannot understand total depravity
        2. Because your religion is one of works, and not of grace you cannot understand how the mercy and grace of Jesus Christ combine to alleviate the scope and extent of depravity.
        3. And unless one works from the viewpoint of God, as opposed to humanity's viewpoint of themselves, no one can see their own depravity.
        Evangelical Christianity and Mormonism are religions. Itís not something weíre born with, how are we automatically spiritually blinded?

        Originally posted by Aaron32 View Post

        POINT THREE

        Romans tells us that we are naturally under the power of our guilt because we all have sinned; therefore death reigns in us, and the wrath of God is inescapable.
        .
        Romans 3:9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,
        10 as it is written:

        ďNone is righteous, no, not one;
        11 no one understands; no one seeks for God

        Romans 3:. 19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.
        20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

        Romans 5:17 For if, because of one manís trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
        18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
        19 For as by the one manís disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one manís obedience the many will be made righteous
        20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
        21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. [This is Adam's sin applied to all mankind]
        God made Adam, the first man, to be representative as a federal head, so that his one sin of disobedience is imputed unto all of humanity, without exception and conversely, so that in like manner, he finished work of Jesus Christ would be imputed upon all of God's elect.
        Forgive my blindness. Per your previous comment, I guess itís beyond my control. How are these scriptures different than the verses I posted from the Book of Mormon?

        Originally posted by Aaron32 View Post
        POINT TWO

        Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints fervently believe in salvation through grace and works. The Book of Mormon states, ďFor we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can doĒ (2 Nephi 25:23)

        The main idea of the term, ďgrace,Ē is divine means of help or strength, given through the love of the Lord Jesus Christ (Bible Dictionary, Grace). This assistance is available to all those who desire to pattern themselves after the Savior. It is not a substitute for our own effort or conscientious obedience;
        //bookofmormononline.com
        I believe weíve debated this point ad nauseum in another thread. This is where I left off. https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/cu...77#post5979377.

        Organgrider and I did take the conversation to the end and it was relevant that all conclusions were made on sub-text and assumption. (see post #399)

        I really have no desire to re-tread that path again. Suffice to say, Iíll agree to disagree with you on this point.




        Originally posted by Aaron32 View Post
        POINT ONE
        .

        2 Corinthians 4: 3 and if also our good news is veiled, in those perishing it is veiled,
        4 in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God;
        5 for not ourselves do we preach, but Christ Jesus--Lord, and ourselves your servants because of Jesus;
        6 because it is God who said, Out of darkness light is to shine, who did shine in our hearts, for the enlightening of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ
        You may use some of the same words as do Christians to describe your gods, but we both know that there is world of difference between your "father god" and the God of the Bible. We both know that the Snow Couplet is not found in the Bible, and the Jesus mentioned in the BoM, etc was "exalted into godhood" but in the Bible, Jesus Christ is all God, and all human simultaneously.
        Iím trying to understand how nature of the Godhead relates to ď1. Because you are a Mormon, (aka non-Christian) you cannot understand total depravityĒ
        Furthermore, I can produce multiple quotes that if a quote of an LDS leader doesnít align with the Standard Works (BoM, Bible, D&C, PoGP) we can set it aside. Snowís couplet canít be found in scripture, even Mormon ones.
        Originally posted by Aaron32 View Post
        Thus points 1, 2 and 3 are all established.
        So, to recap.
        I donít see how your cited scriptures vary from point 1.
        Weíve had previous discussions about point 2, with no conclusion.
        And point 3 is seemingly non-sequitur.

        Sorry, I guess I am blind. Iím not seeing it.

        Comment


        • #5
          Thank you Aaron for a non-incendiary reply

          Originally posted by Aaron32;

          Evangelical Christianity and Mormonism are religions. Itís not something weíre born with, how are we automatically spiritually blinded?

          Indeed we are born with it, so it is not a matter of religion.
          Please read the Scriptures I posted under "POINT THREE" again. Of course, if you do not read them, or gloss over them, you will not understand. They all agree with Romans 3
          .
          Romans 3:20 wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin.
          21 And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets,
          22 and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, --for there is no difference,
          23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God--
          Forgive my blindness. Per your previous comment, I guess itís beyond my control. How are these scriptures different than the verses I posted from the Book of Mormon?
          It is a SPIRITUAL blindness, and the cure for that is a SPIRITUAL one. You simply have to ask Jesus to forgive your sins, and to remove your spiritual blindness



          I believe weíve debated this point ad nauseum in another thread. This is where I left off. https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/cu...77#post5979377.

          Organgrider and I did take the conversation to the end and it was relevant that all conclusions were made on sub-text and assumption. (see post #399)

          I really have no desire to re-tread that path again. Suffice to say, Iíll agree to disagree with you on this point.
          Do you agree or disagree with this?

          "The main idea of the term, “grace,” is divine means of help or strength, given through the love of the Lord Jesus Christ (Bible Dictionary, Grace). This assistance is available to all those who desire to pattern themselves after the Savior. It is not a substitute for our own effort or conscientious obedience; "
          //bookofmormononline.com


          It simply says that the Mormon belief is that the Atonement of Jesus was insufficient, requiring good works to be efficacious.


          Iím trying to understand how nature of the Godhead relates to ď1. Because you are a Mormon, (aka non-Christian) you cannot understand total depravityĒ
          Furthermore, I can produce multiple quotes that if a quote of an LDS leader doesnít align with the Standard Works (BoM, Bible, D&C, PoGP) we can set it aside. Snowís couplet canít be found in scripture, even Mormon ones.

          So, to recap.
          I donít see how your cited scriptures vary from point 1.
          Weíve had previous discussions about point 2, with no conclusion.
          And point 3 is seemingly non-sequitur.

          Sorry, I guess I am blind. Iím not seeing it.
          This above is the crux of the issue, Aaron. We both know that it is a summary of the King Follett Discourse of Smith, and it is regularly taught to the children. Therefore, your comment about "Snowís couplet canít be found in scripture, even Mormon ones." is a red herring. You LDS can play games like that all day long, but you can never deny that it is still being taught.

          If you were not attempting to distract me from that point, you would readily admit that it is not found in the Bible, nor the "Standard Works" but nevertheless, the LDS teach that to their children.

          But that is just another example of the same sort of game that you played on the other thread forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/cults-groups/general-cult-groups-topics/mormonism/5915005-2-nephi-25-23-25?p=5979377#post5979377.I call that game"Jabberwocky" because in doing as you did redefining plain common sense meanings of the words in the text, you attempted to twist the definitions of the words to make them different than the common sense reading of the words meant. I also call it "Humpty Dumptyism" because he haughtily replies to Alice that "Words mean what I want them to say"

          So the bottom line here that your post is an open manifestation of your spiritual blindness. Your mind knows that the plain, common sense meanings take the discussion, that is making JS look like pervert con man (as an example) and attempting to redefine the unacceptable things he said into something utterly different.
          MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

          1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

          2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

          3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

          4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by john t View Post
            Thank you Aaron for a non-incendiary reply



            Please read the Scriptures I posted under "POINT THREE" again. Of course, if you do not read them, or gloss over them, you will not understand. They all agree with Romans 3
            .
            Romans 3:20 wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin.
            21 And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets,
            22 and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, --for there is no difference,
            23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God--

            It is a SPIRITUAL blindness, and the cure for that is a SPIRITUAL one. You simply have to ask Jesus to forgive your sins, and to remove your spiritual blindness





            Do you agree or disagree with this?

            "The main idea of the term, “grace,” is divine means of help or strength, given through the love of the Lord Jesus Christ (Bible Dictionary, Grace). This assistance is available to all those who desire to pattern themselves after the Savior. It is not a substitute for our own effort or conscientious obedience; "
            //bookofmormononline.com


            It simply says that the Mormon belief is that the Atonement of Jesus was insufficient, requiring good works to be efficacious.




            This above is the crux of the issue, Aaron. We both know that it is a summary of the King Follett Discourse of Smith, and it is regularly taught to the children. Therefore, your comment about "Snow’s couplet can’t be found in scripture, even Mormon ones." is a red herring. You LDS can play games like that all day long, but you can never deny that it is still being taught.

            If you were not attempting to distract me from that point, you would readily admit that it is not found in the Bible, nor the "Standard Works" but nevertheless, the LDS teach that to their children.

            But that is just another example of the same sort of game that you played on the other thread forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/cults-groups/general-cult-groups-topics/mormonism/5915005-2-nephi-25-23-25?p=5979377#post5979377.I call that game"Jabberwocky" because in doing as you did redefining plain common sense meanings of the words in the text, you attempted to twist the definitions of the words to make them different than the common sense reading of the words meant. I also call it "Humpty Dumptyism" because he haughtily replies to Alice that "Words mean what I want them to say"

            So the bottom line here that your post is an open manifestation of your spiritual blindness. Your mind knows that the plain, common sense meanings take the discussion, that is making JS look like pervert con man (as an example) and attempting to redefine the unacceptable things he said into something utterly different.
            Once again, Humpty Dumpty-ism at work, in their definition of "grace." While it CAN mean divine help, that is not its main meaning in the Bible, which the online Mormon Bible dictionary ignores completely--UNmerited love/favor. Mormons must merit that which, by definition, is UNmerited.
            "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
            "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
            “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
            "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
            "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Aaron32 View Post
              I'm looking for input from both sides.

              To Calvinists: Am I understanding Total Depravity correctly?

              To Mormons: Based on the scriptures below, it seems to describe Total Depravity. Is this something we can find agreement on with Calvinists?


              1 Ne 10:6 - Wherefore, all mankind were in a lost and in a fallen state, and ever would be save they should rely on this Redeemer.

              Mosiah 3:19 - For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

              Alma 41:11 - And now, my son, all men that are in a state of nature, or I would say, in a carnal state, are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; they are without God in the world, and they have gone contrary to the nature of God; therefore, they are in a state contrary to the nature of happiness.

              Ether 3:2 - O Lord, thou hast said that we must be encompassed about by the floods. Now behold, O Lord, and do not be angry with thy servant because of his weakness before thee; for we know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens, and that we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually; nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee, that from thee we may receive according to our desires.



              God doesnt make depraved things.

              the Self (the body, natural man) is depraved....
              but not the soul herself who by her nature
              is in His Image and made by Him.

              How does lds
              distinguish this?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by e v e View Post


                God doesnt make depraved things.
                Ambiguous. Please explain what you mean, and please back up your assertions by using Scripture verses in context.

                Being born with an Adamic nature is not the same as being depraved

                the Self (the body, natural man) is depraved....
                but not the soul herself who by her nature
                is in His Image and made by Him.
                You are conflating several differing concepts without any explanation, and creating a gargoyle-like theology having no foundation from the Bible

                How does lds distinguish this?
                Since I have no idea about which you posted, it is safe to say that the LDS do not have an inkling of what you are attempting to state, either.
                MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

                1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

                2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

                3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

                4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by john t View Post
                  Thank you Aaron for a non-incendiary reply


                  This above is the crux of the issue, Aaron. We both know that it is a summary of the King Follett Discourse of Smith, and it is regularly taught to the children. Therefore, your comment about "Snow’s couplet can’t be found in scripture, even Mormon ones." is a red herring. You LDS can play games like that all day long, but you can never deny that it is still being taught.
                  CORRECTION

                  This above is the crux of the issue, Aaron. We both know that it is a summary of the King Follett Discourse of Smith, and it is regularly taught to the children. Therefore, your comment about "Snowís couplet canít be found in scripture, even Mormon ones." is a red herring. You LDS can play games like that all day long, but you can never deny that it is NOT being taught.

                  I forgot to add the word "not"
                  MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

                  1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

                  2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

                  3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

                  4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by e v e View Post


                    God doesnt make depraved things.

                    the Self (the body, natural man) is depraved....
                    but not the soul herself who by her nature
                    is in His Image and made by Him.

                    How does lds
                    distinguish this?
                    Very similar. LDS use the term ďfallenĒ - Speaking of our mortal bodies. The Book of Mormon often refers to it as a ďcarnal stateĒ. Weíre depraved inasmuch as we canít come out of this state with the redemption given by the Savior, and guidance of the Holy Ghost.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Aaron32 View Post

                      Very similar. LDS use the term “fallen” - Speaking of our mortal bodies. The Book of Mormon often refers to it as a “carnal state”. We’re depraved inasmuch as we can’t come out of this state with the redemption given by the Savior, and guidance of the Holy Ghost.
                      Yes, I use the term fallen also, in relation to this type of body, which is not the same as in Genesis... where the hebrew refers to adm-human.

                      I assume second sentence meant without not with.

                      My understanding is that Christ is God, who came here to undo the fallen situation legally, paying for us.

                      I think you said you are LDS, but I have seen other times when you and SonofJared seem to be disagreeing... and I didn't know there was that much disparity in lds views. Because, what you are describing as depraved fallen state, would assent to that the fall was very bad and put us into this mortal situation of the world of death, and caused us to leave the realm God made for us.

                      I'm repeating that because I thought that lds believe the fall was good but from reading your reply I see that you might not think that? That's good. I don't think that either. I understand that adam went with the satanic realm, and betrayed God, causing the original sin situation, of entering the world of death (this current world.)











                      Last edited by e v e; 08-14-19, 11:33 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by NRA-Jeff View Post
                        Answer: No, there are insurmountable differences. Tulipians believe, as part of their false soteriology, that all us humans since Adam have a HEREDITARY "sin nature" and that Adam (not Eve, for some odd reason) is to BLAME for that. Furthermore, Tulipians believe that it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to CHOOSE to do good--again, because this "sin nature" that "is in our very DNA" removes any free will that we could possibly use to choose good over evil--and, actually, they believe that we are unable to even WANT to choose good.

                        Such blasphemous, unBiblical heresies make all the difference in the world between LDS doctrine and the infamous TULIP.
                        Thank you for the response.

                        A couple questions come to mind:

                        According to Nephi, if we can't act without being enticed by one or the other, would we choose to do good without the Holy Ghost?

                        When the scriptures talk about the Spirit ceasing to strive with man, and then following destruction comes afterward. Or, for another example, the wickedness of the Nephites before they were destroyed when God left them (ie. child sacrifices) doesn't that demonstrate God's influence, even though it subconscious?

                        (I apologize for looking up specific scripture references right now).

                        I wouldn't go to the extent of saying not being able to choose, but is it possible that there are influences that cause us to choose God's will outside of our awareness?.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by john t View Post
                          Please read the Scriptures I posted under "POINT THREE" again. Of course, if you do not read them, or gloss over them, you will not understand. They all agree with Romans 3
                          .
                          Romans 3:20 wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin.
                          21 And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets,
                          22 and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, --for there is no difference,
                          23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God--
                          I’ll restate my understanding of the scriptures you posted the ensure that I’m understanding you:
                          It basically comes to 2 points.
                          • We are all under sin. We are not justified or made righteous by our works.
                          • Only through Jesus Christ, can we have any claim to justification.
                          Originally posted by john t View Post
                          It is a SPIRITUAL blindness, and the cure for that is a SPIRITUAL one. You simply have to ask Jesus to forgive your sins, and to remove your spiritual blindness
                          Ok. But I don’t see where being Mormon necessarily means being blind, unless you’re saying if I actually did this, then I can no way disagree with you.
                          However, I did ask Jesus to forgive me of my sins, and I’m still a Mormon. (I’m sure your thinking “not the real Jesus”, but let’s set that aside for now.


                          Originally posted by john t View Post
                          Do you agree or disagree with this?

                          "The main idea of the term, ďgrace,Ē is divine means of help or strength, given through the love of the Lord Jesus Christ (Bible Dictionary, Grace). This assistance is available to all those who desire to pattern themselves after the Savior. It is not a substitute for our own effort or conscientious obedience; "
                          //bookofmormononline.com


                          It simply says that the Mormon belief is that the Atonement of Jesus was insufficient, requiring good works to be efficacious.
                          Let’s break it down your quote:
                          • Grace is divine help, given through Jesus Christ.
                          • It is received for those who desire to follow the Savior.
                          • We can’t deliberately disobey the commandments, and expect to be saved by grace.
                          Please identify anything I’ve missed.
                          I do not see anything about insufficiency of the Atonement. In fact, because grace is provided by Jesus Christ, that it’s because of the Atonement that I can receive grace.
                          And it’s only because of grace good works can be performed.
                          Originally posted by john t View Post
                          This above is the crux of the issue, Aaron. We both know that it is a summary of the King Follett Discourse of Smith, and it is regularly taught to the children. Therefore, your comment about "Snow’s couplet can’t be found in scripture, even Mormon ones." is a red herring. You LDS can play games like that all day long, but you can never deny that it is still being taught.

                          If you were not attempting to distract me from that point, you would readily admit that it is not found in the Bible, nor the "Standard Works" but nevertheless, the LDS teach that to their children.
                          I’m not playing games, Johnt. I currently teach primary. I can guarantee you that they do not talk about King Follett’s discourse, or any other class. That’s might have changed over time, but it’s probably because over time people realize it’s unscriptural, and it raises more questions than it answers.
                          What you call my red herring, I call your strawman. Let’s end it altogether. Go to the lds website. All manuals are posted online. I challenge you to find in any of the existing manuals online that God the Father was once a man.
                          Now, there’s a Mormon culture that likes to indulge in the tantalizing quotes, etc. Just as there’s the Joel Osteen’s of Christianity that teach a prosperity gospel. But that doesn’t make it doctrine.
                          Originally posted by john t View Post
                          But that is just another example of the same sort of game that you played on the other thread forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/cults-groups/general-cult-groups-topics/mormonism/5915005-2-nephi-25-23-25?p=5979377#post5979377.I call that game"Jabberwocky" because in doing as you did redefining plain common sense meanings of the words in the text, you attempted to twist the definitions of the words to make them different than the common sense reading of the words meant. I also call it "Humpty Dumptyism" because he haughtily replies to Alice that "Words mean what I want them to say"

                          So the bottom line here that your post is an open manifestation of your spiritual blindness. Your mind knows that the plain, common sense meanings take the discussion, that is making JS look like pervert con man (as an example) and attempting to redefine the unacceptable things he said into something utterly different.
                          Be careful of hypocrisy. You’re the one who’s reading insuffiency of the Atonement, in words that say grace is required to follow the Savior.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by john t View Post

                            CORRECTION

                            This above is the crux of the issue, Aaron. We both know that it is a summary of the King Follett Discourse of Smith, and it is regularly taught to the children. Therefore, your comment about "Snow’s couplet can’t be found in scripture, even Mormon ones." is a red herring. You LDS can play games like that all day long, but you can never deny that it is NOT being taught.

                            I forgot to add the word "not"
                            I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say, but I agree. I can't deny it's NOT being taught.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by e v e View Post

                              Yes, I use the term fallen also, in relation to this type of body, which is not the same as in Genesis... where the hebrew refers to adm-human.

                              I assume second sentence meant without not with.
                              Yes. Thatís what I meant. Thank you.
                              Originally posted by e v e View Post

                              My understanding is that Christ is God, who came here to undo the fallen situation legally, paying for us.

                              I think you said you are LDS, but I have seen other times when you and SonofJared seem to be disagreeing... and I didn't know there was that much disparity in lds views. Because, what you are describing as depraved fallen state, would assent to that the fall was very bad and put us into this mortal situation of the world of death, and caused us to leave the realm God made for us.

                              I'm repeating that because I thought that lds believe the fall was good but from reading your reply I see that you might not think that? That's good. I don't think that either. I understand that adam went with the satanic realm, and betrayed God, causing the original sin situation, of entering the world of death (this current world.)
                              Yes, I am LDS. I honestly donít know how much fellow Mormons agree with my beliefs. What I can tell you is that Mormonism is a culture and a religion, but they are two different things. And if youíre born and raised in Utah, itís extremely difficult to distinguish the two. Some members donít read the scriptures as they are counseled to do, and rely on being taught at church, seminary, conference, etc. BrotherofJared didnít even believe works had anything to do with faith until he heard it on the BYU channel. He doesnít think charity is a gift even though the Apostles point blank contradict him. Iím saying this because just someone claims to be a Mormon, donít assume they know what their talking about. If itís not found in the scriptures, it isnít doctrine.
                              Anyway, hereís my take on the fall. The purpose of existance is to become like Heavenly Father. We canít do that without opposition. The fall was essential for that to happen.
                              I believe Adam was given two commandments that gave him a no-win situation when Eve partook of the fruit. If Adam was commanded to multiply and replenish the earth, he couldnít do that if Eve was cast out. He could choose to remain in the garden like a monk in a monastery and remain somewhat in Godís presence, or he could choose life, and have a family. It was something that was meant to be for the plan to happen.

                              My attitude toward the fall came because I had a similar situation as Adamís while practicing some Zen-type principles in a nirvana-like moment, and was forced with a similar choice. One of the joys in heaven that we will be crowned with is to be with loved ones, and we canít expect to have that, nor God canít be glorified, if we donít live up to our responsibilities to help others down the path.

                              The reason I asked the question about total depravity is to identify the logical step prior to realizing the need for grace and the atonement. Most Mormons have been raised singing ďI am a child of GodĒ, so when you tell them, ďNo, youíre not saved by works, it doesnít matter what you do, youíll never be good enough on your own meritsĒ they reply with ďBut God is my Father, He loves me, and I can have the same attributes as He does.Ē So Iím just get taking a pulse of what Mormons think on this board.
                              Personally, I believe God influences us to make good decisions, and without that influence, weíd go to the depths of absolute wickedness. Plus, I donít think it hurts to give God too much credit, even if Iím wrong. But, that depends on how extreme ďTotalĒ means in ďtotal depravityĒ. I believe we still have the ability to choose good or evil, but all the good ir really just taking a portion of Godís love.

                              I agree, this world is the world of death, but thankfully, it has been overcome.

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