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  • The Proper Place of Works in Salvation

    Our two groups are disagreed about where "works" fits in regarding salvation. Mormons believe that "works" (or "obedience" to "commandments") is required for salvation. Christians believe that salvation is an amazingly wonderful gift, something that it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to earn through any "works" or effort on our part, something that has to be given to us wholly and completely by God. We also believe that works come AFTER salvation, as the "fruits" or evidence of salvation.

    Now, if someone doesn't want to read the Bible for understanding, but simply "proof-text" particular verses, it is understandable how they can use Jesus to try to support a belief that "works" are a prerequisite for salvation. But we shall see in this post how that is a misunderstanding of Jesus' teachings.


    "Filthy Rags"

    One of the first things we note is that Isa. 64:6 describes our works, even the "best of our righteousnesses", as "filthy rags" in the sight of God. The expression "filthy rags" actually refers to used menstrual garments. So instead of presenting a magnificent oil painting to God, or presenting him with a bejeweled bird cage you expertly made, you are presenting him with a used tampon, and that is the BEST you can do. Something that is only fit for the garbage, we can do no better than than when doing "works" for God.


    Romans 3

    Without a doubt, the best way to understand the gospel is to read through the ENTIRETY of the book of Romans. That is the purpose of the book as Paul wrote it, he explains from start to finish what God gave us, how we've responded, how unable we are to comply, and then the grace which he gave us. The first two chapters explain how God gave the commandments to the Jews, and so there is no excuse for them not knowing them. He then explains how God also gave the Gentiles the Law, written on their hearts (Rom. 2:14-15). So it has been revealed to us that (1) both the Jews and the Gentiles have the Law, and (2) those who do not fulfill the law will be justly punished.

    But then Paul explains something about the purpose of the law, which comes as a surprise, both to the ancients as well as modern Christians... The purpose of the Law was NEVER to be fulfilled by sinners (it is, I guess, comparable to the Kobyashi Maru). The purpose of the Law was to CONVICT us of our sin, and to present us COMPLETELY dependent on God for His mercy:

    Rom. 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    See also:

    Gal. 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


    Jesus and the Pharisees

    Now that we have a better idea of the purpose of law, we have a better understanding of why Jesus kept pushing the Law at the Pharisees, and why this isn't an indication that this is the way we are saved. The purpose of the Law was to CONVICT us of our sin. But the Pharisees, and the rich man, they weren't convicted of their sin. They thought they were KEEPING the Law, and that was their constant response to Jesus when He preached the Law to them. He gave them hints, of course..... "You shall not murder", "You shall not commit adultery". And they answered, "Yes, Lord, we have obeyed". But Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount, being angry with someone is equivalent to murder, and lusting after a woman is equivalent to adultery, do you STILL want to tell me that you've obeyed those commandments?

    To interpret Jesus as teaching that one can be saved through "works" is to reject the teaching of the entire Bible.


    "Not by Works"

    The Bible confirms this over and over, when it denies that "works" have any place in acquiring our salvation.

    Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    2 Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    Tit. 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    Rom. 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

    It was NEVER "grace + works". Grace has ALWAYS been diametrically opposed to works. It is either grace, or works, it cannot be both. Further, grace is something undeserved, something we did not work for. Works are "quid pro quo" (cf. Rom. 4:1-5).


    Works are the Fruits

    A tree doesn't grow apples to "become" an apple tree. It grows apples BECAUSE it is (already) an apple tree). And it is the same with us. We do not do works "in order to be saved". We do good works BECAUSE we are saved:

    Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    Phil. 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


    Mere Christianity

    I'm a little hesitant to cite C.S. Lewis, since I'm undoubtedly going to get accused of violating "sola Scriptura". But I think I've made a good Scriptural case above, and the citation of Lewis is presented, not as authoritative on its own, but to demonstrate that others have understood this same doctrine FROM SCRIPTURE. And I think it's especially relevant since Mormons have tried to use this same source to try to support "works-salvation".

    Just a few quotes from his two chapters on "Faith":

    Originally posted by C.S. Lewis
    . In other words, he discovers his bankruptcy.
    [...]
    He is misunderstanding what he is and what God is. And he cannot get into the right relation until he has discovered the fact of our bankruptcy.
    [...]
    Now we cannot, in that sense, discover our failure to keep God's law except by trying our very hardest (and then failing). Unless we really try, whatever we say there will always be at the back of our minds the idea that if we try harder next time we shall succeed in being completely good. Thus, in one sense, the road back to God is a road of moral effort, of trying harder and harder. But in another sense it is not trying that is ever going to bring us home. All this trying leads up to the vital moment at which you turn to God and say, "You must do this. I can't."
    "Bankruptcy" is a very strong term, indeed...


    Perhaps now you can better understand a particular quote:

    "The law is for the self-righteous, to humble their pride;
    the gospel is for the lost, to remove their despair."

    -- C. H. Spurgeon

    Isn't that basically what Rom. 3:19-20 is saying, that the Law is to humble our pride?
    And then Paul continues with Rom. 4-5, explaining how the gospel removes our despair.

    Mormons need the gospel.
    But they first need to accept their inability.
    "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
    but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
    -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

  • #2
    Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post
    Our two groups are disagreed about where "works" fits in regarding salvation. Mormons believe that "works" (or "obedience" to "commandments") is required for salvation. Christians believe that salvation is an amazingly wonderful gift, something that it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to earn through any "works" or effort on our part, something that has to be given to us wholly and completely by God.
    I would like a qualification on that statement. Is works being required for His grace unto life to occur, as personal salvation--the same as earning salvation? Are you equating the two?

    We also believe that works come AFTER salvation, as the "fruits" or evidence of salvation.
    No one would argue fruits come after salvation. I don't believe that is the point of concern. Fruit after salvation does not preclude fruit before salvation, as a personal reception.

    The question is, IMO--does God give His grace unto life--independent of our acts of obedience to Him?

    Matthew 7:19-21 ----King James Version (KJV)
    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post
      Our two groups are disagreed about where "works" fits in regarding salvation. Mormons believe that "works" (or "obedience" to "commandments") is required for salvation. Christians believe that salvation is an amazingly wonderful gift, something that it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to earn through any "works" or effort on our part, something that has to be given to us wholly and completely by God. We also believe that works come AFTER salvation, as the "fruits" or evidence of salvation.

      Now, if someone doesn't want to read the Bible for understanding, but simply "proof-text" particular verses, it is understandable how they can use Jesus to try to support a belief that "works" are a prerequisite for salvation. But we shall see in this post how that is a misunderstanding of Jesus' teachings.


      "Filthy Rags"

      One of the first things we note is that Isa. 64:6 describes our works, even the "best of our righteousnesses", as "filthy rags" in the sight of God. The expression "filthy rags" actually refers to used menstrual garments. So instead of presenting a magnificent oil painting to God, or presenting him with a bejeweled bird cage you expertly made, you are presenting him with a used tampon, and that is the BEST you can do. Something that is only fit for the garbage, we can do no better than than when doing "works" for God.


      Romans 3

      Without a doubt, the best way to understand the gospel is to read through the ENTIRETY of the book of Romans. That is the purpose of the book as Paul wrote it, he explains from start to finish what God gave us, how we've responded, how unable we are to comply, and then the grace which he gave us. The first two chapters explain how God gave the commandments to the Jews, and so there is no excuse for them not knowing them. He then explains how God also gave the Gentiles the Law, written on their hearts (Rom. 2:14-15). So it has been revealed to us that (1) both the Jews and the Gentiles have the Law, and (2) those who do not fulfill the law will be justly punished.

      But then Paul explains something about the purpose of the law, which comes as a surprise, both to the ancients as well as modern Christians... The purpose of the Law was NEVER to be fulfilled by sinners (it is, I guess, comparable to the Kobyashi Maru). The purpose of the Law was to CONVICT us of our sin, and to present us COMPLETELY dependent on God for His mercy:

      Rom. 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

      See also:

      Gal. 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


      Jesus and the Pharisees

      Now that we have a better idea of the purpose of law, we have a better understanding of why Jesus kept pushing the Law at the Pharisees, and why this isn't an indication that this is the way we are saved. The purpose of the Law was to CONVICT us of our sin. But the Pharisees, and the rich man, they weren't convicted of their sin. They thought they were KEEPING the Law, and that was their constant response to Jesus when He preached the Law to them. He gave them hints, of course..... "You shall not murder", "You shall not commit adultery". And they answered, "Yes, Lord, we have obeyed". But Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount, being angry with someone is equivalent to murder, and lusting after a woman is equivalent to adultery, do you STILL want to tell me that you've obeyed those commandments?

      To interpret Jesus as teaching that one can be saved through "works" is to reject the teaching of the entire Bible.


      "Not by Works"

      The Bible confirms this over and over, when it denies that "works" have any place in acquiring our salvation.

      Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

      2 Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

      Tit. 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

      Rom. 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

      It was NEVER "grace + works". Grace has ALWAYS been diametrically opposed to works. It is either grace, or works, it cannot be both. Further, grace is something undeserved, something we did not work for. Works are "quid pro quo" (cf. Rom. 4:1-5).


      Works are the Fruits

      A tree doesn't grow apples to "become" an apple tree. It grows apples BECAUSE it is (already) an apple tree). And it is the same with us. We do not do works "in order to be saved". We do good works BECAUSE we are saved:

      Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

      Phil. 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


      Mere Christianity

      I'm a little hesitant to cite C.S. Lewis, since I'm undoubtedly going to get accused of violating "sola Scriptura". But I think I've made a good Scriptural case above, and the citation of Lewis is presented, not as authoritative on its own, but to demonstrate that others have understood this same doctrine FROM SCRIPTURE. And I think it's especially relevant since Mormons have tried to use this same source to try to support "works-salvation".

      Just a few quotes from his two chapters on "Faith":



      "Bankruptcy" is a very strong term, indeed...


      Perhaps now you can better understand a particular quote:

      "The law is for the self-righteous, to humble their pride;
      the gospel is for the lost, to remove their despair."

      -- C. H. Spurgeon

      Isn't that basically what Rom. 3:19-20 is saying, that the Law is to humble our pride?
      And then Paul continues with Rom. 4-5, explaining how the gospel removes our despair.

      Mormons need the gospel.
      But they first need to accept their inability.
      Good post, Theo. We do our good deeds IN SALVATION, not FOR salvation. AT any rate, when the Bible talks about good works, it doesn't mean Mormon temple works--especially the wretched endowment ceremony, with its false, perverted depiction of Creation and Fall into Sin stories from Genesis, shown in the video. Nor does it mean wearing temple undergarments with Masonic symbols on them, for the rest of one's life. Nor does it mean observing the WoW... nor does it mean getting married and having that marriage sealed in a temple...nor does it mean building multi-million dollar temples all over the world in which to perform this ritual....

      The Bible means none of these things.
      "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
      "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
      “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
      "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
      "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post
        "Filthy Rags"

        One of the first things we note is that Isa. 64:6 describes our works, even the "best of our righteousnesses", as "filthy rags" in the sight of God. The expression "filthy rags" actually refers to used menstrual garments
        That is a reference to the Mosaic Law.

        This pertains to the NT gospel of grace:

        1 John 3:7--- King James Version (KJV)
        7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

        How do you collate the two?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

          I would like a qualification on that statement. Is works being required for His grace unto life to occur, as personal salvation--the same as earning salvation? Are you equating the two?
          Your phrase, "works being REQUIRED FOR His grace unto life to occur" is an oxymoron, as it denies true grace, for which NOTHING is "required".
          "Grace" is a FREE gift.
          NOTHING is "required" for it.

          It would be like a man saying, "I'm offering you a 'free gift' of $600. All you have to do is work for me for 40 hours this week.
          Bzzzzzt! Sorry! Not a "gift". Not "grace". It's "wages" due (cf. Rom. 4:1-5). It's quid pro quo. NOT "grace".

          The question is, IMO--does God give His grace unto life--independent of our acts of obedience to Him?
          Romans 89 says "yes".
          Eph. 1 says "yes".

          Matthew 7:19-21 ----King James Version (KJV)
          19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
          20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
          21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
          Again, works are the FRUITS of salvation.
          Those trees were torn down because they WEREN'T fruit trees.

          There lack of fruit was the EVIDENCE that they weren't the right kind of tree.
          You keep trying to TWIST Jesus' teaching to try to make Him a Mormon.
          You can't do that.
          "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
          --------------------------------------------------------------------------
          "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
          but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
          -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post
            Romans 3

            Without a doubt, the best way to understand the gospel is to read through the ENTIRETY of the book of Romans. That is the purpose of the book as Paul wrote it, he explains from start to finish what God gave us, how we've responded, how unable we are to comply, and then the grace which he gave us. The first two chapters explain how God gave the commandments to the Jews, and so there is no excuse for them not knowing them. He then explains how God also gave the Gentiles the Law, written on their hearts (Rom. 2:14-15). So it has been revealed to us that (1) both the Jews and the Gentiles have the Law, and (2) those who do not fulfill the law will be justly punished.

            But then Paul explains something about the purpose of the law, which comes as a surprise, both to the ancients as well as modern Christians... The purpose of the Law was NEVER to be fulfilled by sinners (it is, I guess, comparable to the Kobyashi Maru). The purpose of the Law was to CONVICT us of our sin, and to present us COMPLETELY dependent on God for His mercy:

            Rom. 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

            See also:

            Gal. 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
            Again--that is a reference to the Mosaic Law which you highlighted in red.

            Here is the testimony of the Savior:

            Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
            19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
            20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
            21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

            How does that differ from Paul's testimony?

            Romans 2:5-11 ---King James Version (KJV)
            5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
            6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
            7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
            8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
            9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
            10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
            11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post
              Your phrase, "works being REQUIRED FOR His grace unto life to occur" is an oxymoron, as it denies true grace, for which NOTHING is "required".
              So--are you claiming the remission of sins isn't "true grace"?

              Acts 2:38 ---King James Version (KJV)
              38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

              1 John 1:7--- King James Version (KJV)
              7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

              "Grace" is a FREE gift. NOTHING is "required" for it.
              Some forms of grace are a free gift. For example--the Atonement was a free gift to all men.

              But the remission of sins requires faith in Christ, as repentance and water baptism, walking in the light...

              So--are you claiming the above scriptures are not true?

              It would be like a man saying, "I'm offering you a 'free gift' of $600. All you have to do is work for me for 40 hours this week.
              If what you are claiming is a free gift--then why the parable?


              Matthew 20:1-14-- King James Version (KJV)
              1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
              2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
              3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
              4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
              5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
              6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
              7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
              8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
              9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
              10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
              11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
              12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
              13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
              14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

              Comment


              • #8
                As is typical, our critics like to tell us what we believe and as is typical, they are usually wrong as in this case.

                Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post
                Our two groups are disagreed about where "works" fits in regarding salvation.
                I'm surprised you offer that works fit anywhere where it concerns salvation.
                Mormons believe that "works" (or "obedience" to "commandments") is required for salvation.
                This is false. Our doctrine teaches that following Jesus Christ leads one to be better, but it is not salvational in itself. Your statement would lead one to believe that in order to be saved, we must be perfect and that is not what we teach at all. Quite literally, we believe that we are saved by grace. There is nothing we can do to get around that.

                There is more to it than that, but lets see what the rest of your post says.

                Christians believe that salvation is an amazingly wonderful gift, something that it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to earn through any "works" or effort on our part, something that has to be given to us wholly and completely by God.
                This is pretty close to what we believe. I would say that grace is something that is given to all men. They have to accept it.
                We also believe that works come AFTER salvation, as the "fruits" or evidence of salvation.
                Nice statement, but if one's fruits do not evidence a person who is in a saved condition, are they saved? It is clear that not everyone who cries Lord, Lord, will be saved in the kingdom of God.

                So, are modern Christians saved until they are not? What makes them unsaved? How does one know?

                Now, if someone doesn't want to read the Bible for understanding, but simply "proof-text" particular verses, it is understandable how they can use Jesus to try to support a belief that "works" are a prerequisite for salvation. But we shall see in this post how that is a misunderstanding of Jesus' teachings.
                We don't believe that good works are a prerequisite to salvation. We believe they are essential to salvation. If one does not do good works, they cannot be saved. Jesus appears to agree. Those who have done good works will be resurrected to life, those who have done evil will be resurrected to damnation. Seems pretty simple to me.

                "Filthy Rags"

                One of the first things we note is that Isa. 64:6 describes our works, even the "best of our righteousnesses", as "filthy rags" in the sight of God.
                Total depravity is not a doctrine we espouse.

                I don't believe that was the intent of Isaiah's passage, nor of the psalmist nor of Paul's references to any of them. I believe, more importantly, that these references are to using the "deeds" of the law to excuse the people's sins. They relied on sacrifice to cover their sins and that was never the intent of the law. Killing animals will not cover sin. These deeds, then, are the "works of righteousness" that were an abomination that was as "polluted garments". Not actual good works. The Jews had supplanted the works of the law for actually doing good works.
                "...for now is our salvation nearer to us than when we believed." Romans 13:11 -- What else must be done to move past belief? Faith is belief in action. It is works unto salvation.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by BrotherofJared View Post
                  As is typical, our critics like to tell us what we believe and as is typical, they are usually wrong as in this case.

                  I'm surprised you offer that works fit anywhere where it concerns salvation.
                  That's because you don't understand the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
                  And that makes your first statement above INCREDIBLY ironic and hypocritical... Just sayin'...

                  This is false. Our doctrine teaches that following Jesus Christ leads one to be better, but it is not salvational in itself.
                  For the record, I NEVER claimed that Mormons believe "following Jesus Christ leads to salvation".

                  Notice how the Mormon first (falsely) accuses me of misrepresenting what Mormons believe, but then in order to try to demonstrate that, he has to MISREPRESENT what I actually said.

                  Your statement would lead one to believe that in order to be saved, we must be perfect and that is not what we teach at all.
                  And for the record, I NEVER claimed that Mormons believe they have to be "perfect" in order to be saved.
                  So once again, this Mormon poster chooses to MISREPRESENT what I said.

                  Quite literally, we believe that we are saved by grace. There is nothing we can do to get around that.
                  So you don't have to do anything, then?
                  Why don't I believe you?

                  Quite literally, we believe that we are saved by grace. There is nothing we can do to get around that.

                  There is more to it than that, but lets see what the rest of your post says.
                  EXACTLY.

                  You DON'T believe you are saved by "grace".
                  You believe you are saved by "grace AND....".

                  And since the Bible teaches that "grace" and "works" are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE, then you are nullifying God's grace:

                  Rom.11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

                  This is pretty close to what we believe. I would say that grace is something that is given to all men. They have to accept it.
                  You just contradicted yourself (again).
                  If they have to "accept" it, then it is not "given" to them, it is merely OFFERED to them.

                  Nice statement, but if one's fruits do not evidence a person who is in a saved condition, are they saved? It is clear that not everyone who cries Lord, Lord, will be saved in the kingdom of God.
                  That doesn't contradict anything I wrote.
                  Nice try, though.

                  So, are modern Christians saved until they are not? What makes them unsaved? How does one know?
                  I guess you forgot this is the MORMONISM forum.
                  If you have questions about Christianity, try asking them in one of the CHRISTIAN forums.

                  It's absolutely amazing (or maybe not really) that Mormons put so much effort into DODGING questions and verses relating to MORMON theology in the MORMONISM forum, and instead try to constantly DODGE their own beliefs and instead try to attack Christianity.

                  If Mormons are so utterly incapable of defending their false beliefs here, why should anyone be stupid enough to convert to Mormonism?

                  We don't believe that good works are a prerequisite to salvation. We believe they are essential to salvation.
                  You seem confused.

                  There is no such thing as "optional prerequisites".
                  All prerequisites, by DEFINITION, are "essential".
                  "requisite" has the same root as "required".

                  If one does not do good works, they cannot be saved.
                  Then you contradict Eph. 2:8-9, Tit. 3:5, 2 Tim. 1:9, Rom. 4:1-5, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc. etc.

                  Jesus appears to agree.
                  No, actually, He didn't.
                  And if you had actually bothered to READ my OP, you would have understood that.

                  Those who have done good works will be resurrected to life, those who have done evil will be resurrected to damnation. Seems pretty simple to me.
                  What you are describing is called a "correlation", NOT a "causation".
                  Jesus taught that they go together.
                  How they ACTUALLY relate is that salvation leads to good works (eg. Eph. 2:10, Phil. 2:13), NOT the other way around.

                  Originally posted by Theo1689

                  "Filthy Rags"

                  One of the first things we note is that Isa. 64:6 describes our works,to even the "best of our righteousnesses", as "filthy rags" in the sight of God.
                  Total depravity is not a doctrine we espouse.
                  Did everyone notice that I didn't even MENTION "total depravity"?
                  All I did was quote Isa. 64:6.

                  So thank you to the Mormon for admitting that he REJECTS Isa. 64!

                  I don't believe that was the intent of Isaiah's passage, nor of the psalmist nor of Paul's references to any of them. I believe, more importantly, that these references are to using the "deeds" of the law to excuse the people's sins.
                  Yep, that's a pretty lame excuse for ignoring all the "not by works" passages, and claiming a salvation (basically) by works, while trying to deny that you are actually rejecting Scripture. The VAST MAJORITY of those "not by works" passages make NO REFERENCE specifically to the "law", and you do NOT get to CHANGE the context to try to make it fit your false theology.
                  "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
                  but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
                  -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

                    That's because you don't understand the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
                    And that makes your first statement above INCREDIBLY ironic and hypocritical... Just sayin'...
                    I didn't start this thread. You offered some statements that are simply not true about what we believe. Will I be able to correct you? Probably not, but let's see.

                    Still, I don't see where you have fit works into salvation. It appears that it has nothing to do with salvation. What I have obtained from your post so far is that works is a by-product of salvation already obtained. So, where, exactly, does it fit into salvation? May question is, if one does not work, are they still saved? Further, if one continues in evil works, are they still saved?

                    Here's the problem as I see it: If works is the result of being saved and works has no effect on one's salvation, then truly it doesn't matter whether one works or not. They can continue is the same walk in sin as they ever did. A murderer who was saved who continues to murder is still saved, presents a huge question... Why do anything Christ taught us to do? It doesn't matter whether we change or not.

                    If, on the other hand, continuing in evil works is evidence that one is not saved, then it appears that one must work or they cannot be saved. Therefore, the idea of works being a product of being saved is not quite right. One might say in this situation, that we now work not to be damned. It's still a works-based salvation if works have any effect on it.

                    For the record, I NEVER claimed that Mormons believe "following Jesus Christ leads to salvation".
                    I didn't say you did. I said you misrepresent our beliefs and this is one of them. You have now been schooled. Let's see if you can retain the information.

                    Notice how the Mormon first (falsely) accuses me of misrepresenting what Mormons believe, but then in order to try to demonstrate that, he has to MISREPRESENT what I actually said.


                    Try to pay close attention. I said, you are wrong. That's what the words "This is false" means. Then I corrected your statement. I never misrepresented your statement or claimed that what I said is what you meant.

                    And for the record, I NEVER claimed that Mormons believe they have to be "perfect" in order to be saved.
                    Again. Please try to pay attention. I did not say that you claimed any such thing. I said, your statement "would lead one to believe that in order to be saved...". You may not think it will lead to that, but instead of actually pointing what it should lead one to believe, you make representations about what I claimed you said, which I didn't.
                    So once again, this Mormon poster chooses to MISREPRESENT what I said.


                    So you don't have to do anything, then?
                    No. That is what I understand you all believe. I was pretty clear when I said works are essential to salvation, meaning necessary.
                    Why don't I believe you?
                    I don't know why you don't believe me.

                    EXACTLY.

                    You DON'T believe you are saved by "grace".
                    This is an example of our critics telling us what we believe instead of learning what we believe so they can actually argue real issues.
                    You believe you are saved by "grace AND....".
                    No and about it. We are saved by grace, period. No one can earn heaven and we don't teach that anyone can.

                    And since the Bible teaches that "grace" and "works" are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE, then you are nullifying God's grace:
                    The Bible teaches that the performances under the Law and grace are mutually exclusive, the "deeds of the Law" and grace. The law doesn't save us and it doesn't cover sin. It never did.

                    When I said there is more to it than that, I was leaving off a detailed discussion of what it means, individually, to follow Christ. Whatever a person is able to do, they should do. Each person is different. There isn't a standard that fits everyone. We are saved by grace, after all we can do which I understand to mean, after all we are able to do. Since we are all sinners and have all broken a commandment at some point in our lives, we have all fallen short of the glory of God. Without the atonement, we'd all be hopelessly lost because none of us are perfect. Works of the law cannot cover those sins. Christ only can. But will he? It is my understanding that He will, if we do all we are able to do to follow his example in doing good continually.

                    It is clear from the scriptures that not everyone will obtain salvation. Those who do much do something different than those who do not. I believe, what separates us from you all is that we believe that is a process of growing closer to God by following the example of his Son in his life, whereas, you all believe that an event, usually a confession of Christ, will cover all sins past, present, and future. The problem is that such an event is called a ritual performance, not unlike sacrificing a lamb. The event will not cover sin. Only Christ can do that.

                    Rom.11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
                    And there may be, but what does that have to do with you all?
                    6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
                    This is exactly what I just said. the "deeds of the Law" cannot cover sin, just like confessing Christ does not save in and of itself.

                    You just contradicted yourself (again).

                    If they have to "accept" it, then it is not "given" to them, it is merely OFFERED to them.
                    Correct. I don't see the contradiction. We understand grace is given to all regardless of them accepting it. This is redemption from the grave. Everyone gets that, it's not an option. They do not have to accept it. But that only saves us from the grave. In my book, that is not salvation. The grace I'm talking about, where one might consider themselves saved, comes only through Christ. This grace is conditional. It necessitates certain performances to acquire it and a certain life to keep it. Regardless, we can still only be saved by grace because we are not perfect.

                    That doesn't contradict anything I wrote.
                    Nice try, though.
                    But you didn't answer the question, are they saved if they don't work?

                    I guess you forgot this is the MORMONISM forum.
                    If you have questions about Christianity, try asking them in one of the CHRISTIAN forums.
                    Fine. Don't answer the question. modern Christians aren't united in their understanding of this anyway. I will leave it that modern Christians are saved until they are not and it comes as a complete surprise when their fellows throw them under the bus when they suddenly find themselves outside the fold.

                    It's absolutely amazing (or maybe not really) that Mormons put so much effort into DODGING questions
                    erm. That's what you just did. But, I don't find that amazing at all. In fact, it seems par for the course.
                    and verses relating to MORMON theology in the MORMONISM forum, and instead try to constantly DODGE their own beliefs and instead try to attack Christianity.
                    I asked a question, you dodged it. No attack was made. Either you can't answer the question or you won't. That's not on me. It's on you.

                    If Mormons are so utterly incapable of defending their false beliefs here, why should anyone be stupid enough to convert to Mormonism?
                    Probably because we answer questions.

                    You seem confused.

                    There is no such thing as "optional prerequisites".
                    You seem confused. Who said anything about "optional"? You are the one who brought up "works are a prerequisite to salvation". Again, I am schooling you about our beliefs. After all, this is a Mormon forum.You are simply wrong about what we believe.
                    All prerequisites, by DEFINITION, are "essential".
                    True, but let's keep the topic on works, shall we? Works are not a "prerequisite to salvation" in our theology. Let's see if you can keep that straight.
                    "requisite" has the same root as "required".
                    and "pre" means requirements before one receives, in this case, salvation. There is no such doctrine in our theology.

                    "Essential", in this case, means that if one does not do the works that God has before prepared for us to do them, then one cannot be saved.

                    Then you contradict Eph. 2:8-9
                    keep reading to verse 10.
                    Tit. 3:5
                    Titus 3:5 has bad punctuation and bad versification.

                    It should be read: "But after that (after the evil we did) the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy.

                    In other words, this kindness was not showed because of our good works, but out of mercy. Period. It is not the reason he saved us. Then follows by what means he saves us: "He saved us, by the washing of regeneration (renewing of Baptismal covenants), and renewing of the Holy Ghost (these are prerequistes, baptism and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost); which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour." Then later in verse 8, he states: "they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works." Why should they be careful to maintain good works?

                    I know, I know. this is a Mormon forum, so you don't have to answer that question. So don't.

                    But, I'll tell you. Good works are essential to salvation. That's why they should be careful to maintain them.

                    2 Tim. 1:9
                    2 Tim 1:9 is no help for you either. It fully agrees with our theology. We know it is by grace we are saved, none of our works can save us. But, good works are essential to salvation because without them, we cannot be saved. 2 Tim 1:9 doesn't mention the necessity to maintain good works, but the context of the New Testament does and Titus 3 clearly does.

                    Rom. 4:1-5
                    Roman 4:1-5
                    What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works (according to the Law of Moses - ritual works), he has something to boast about (this boasting is a clear reference to Eph 2:8-9), but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? ďAbraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.Ē (and how do we know that Abraham believed God? Well, by his works, of course.) Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. (which is what the Jews believed the works of the Law obtained for them, their due) And to the one who does not work (Law of Moses) but believes in him (Christ) who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
                    Shall we see what kind of works that Christ sees and thereby justifies the ungodly? Or will you just take my word for it? Abraham worked. If you have any questions about it, See the same chapter, vs 18, he trusted that he yet be the father of many nations, No unbelief made him waver. His work that demonstrated his belief is also seen in Heb 11:9. Abraham worked. It is clear that he worked according to his belief, but the Law or ritual works are not what saved him. God's grace did. But what if Abraham didn't do those works? Would God have saved him?

                    It's ok. I know you're not going to answer the question. But the answer is NO.

                    Rom. 11:5-6
                    I've already addressed this one
                    6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
                    This is exactly what I just said. the "deeds of the Law" cannot cover sin, just like confessing Christ does not save in and of itself.

                    etc. etc. etc.
                    Give them all please. So far, you don't have any verses that support your understanding as I have expressed that I believe it is. Since you won't answer the question, then I am left to make assumptions.

                    No, actually, He didn't.
                    Actually, He did.
                    And if you had actually bothered to READ my OP, you would have understood that.
                    I highly doubt that.

                    What you are describing is called a "correlation", NOT a "causation".
                    uh huh.
                    It seems pretty clear to me that "doing good works" causes a "resurrection to life". At least, according to Jesus.

                    Jesus taught that they go together.
                    How they ACTUALLY relate is that salvation leads to good works (eg. Eph. 2:10, Phil. 2:13), NOT the other way around.
                    No. What the apostles taught actually supports what Jesus said, not the other way around.

                    Did everyone notice that I didn't even MENTION "total depravity"?
                    All I did was quote Isa. 64:6.
                    As if that makes any difference. You are misuing Isa 64:6, that's all

                    So thank you to the Mormon for admitting that he REJECTS Isa. 64!
                    Oh. We accept it just as it is written. We don't read into it as it appears that modern Christians do.

                    Yep, that's a pretty lame excuse for ignoring all the "not by works" passages,
                    The by works passages are referring to the deeds of the law, not good works.
                    and claiming a salvation (basically) by works
                    I never claimed any such thing. Clearly, you are unable to learn where you err concerning our doctrine. Works are essential, they are not a prerequisite.
                    while trying to deny that you are actually rejecting Scripture. The VAST MAJORITY of those "not by works" passages make NO REFERENCE specifically to the "law",
                    They don't have to? It can be inferred from the context because we know that good works are essential to salvation. At least, that's what the New Testament teaches, i.e that we ought to no longer walk after the lusts of our flesh, no longer follow the god of this world. eh? Or is that okay to do once one has been "saved"?

                    That's okay. You don't have to answer the question.

                    and you do NOT get to CHANGE the context to try to make it fit your false theology.
                    LOL. I'm using the context as it is written. That's something our critics seem unable to do.

                    "...for now is our salvation nearer to us than when we believed." Romans 13:11 -- What else must be done to move past belief? Faith is belief in action. It is works unto salvation.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

                      Your phrase, "works being REQUIRED FOR His grace unto life to occur" is an oxymoron, as it denies true grace, for which NOTHING is "required".
                      "Grace" is a FREE gift.
                      NOTHING is "required" for it.
                      Then everyone is saved, what's your problem then? According to this, even Mormons are saved.

                      "...for now is our salvation nearer to us than when we believed." Romans 13:11 -- What else must be done to move past belief? Faith is belief in action. It is works unto salvation.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                        So--are you claiming the remission of sins isn't "true grace"?

                        Acts 2:38 ---King James Version (KJV)
                        38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

                        1 John 1:7--- King James Version (KJV)
                        7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

                        Some forms of grace are a free gift. For example--the Atonement was a free gift to all men.

                        But the remission of sins requires faith in Christ, as repentance and water baptism, walking in the light...

                        So--are you claiming the above scriptures are not true?

                        If what you are claiming is a free gift--then why the parable?

                        Matthew 20:1-14-- King James Version (KJV)
                        1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
                        2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
                        3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
                        4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
                        5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
                        6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
                        7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
                        8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
                        9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
                        10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
                        11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
                        12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
                        13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
                        14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
                        Bump for Theo

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

                          That's because you don't understand the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
                          And that makes your first statement above INCREDIBLY ironic and hypocritical... Just sayin'...



                          For the record, I NEVER claimed that Mormons believe "following Jesus Christ leads to salvation".

                          Notice how the Mormon first (falsely) accuses me of misrepresenting what Mormons believe, but then in order to try to demonstrate that, he has to MISREPRESENT what I actually said.



                          And for the record, I NEVER claimed that Mormons believe they have to be "perfect" in order to be saved.
                          So once again, this Mormon poster chooses to MISREPRESENT what I said.



                          So you don't have to do anything, then?
                          Why don't I believe you?



                          EXACTLY.

                          You DON'T believe you are saved by "grace".
                          You believe you are saved by "grace AND....".

                          And since the Bible teaches that "grace" and "works" are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE, then you are nullifying God's grace:

                          Rom.11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.



                          You just contradicted yourself (again).
                          If they have to "accept" it, then it is not "given" to them, it is merely OFFERED to them.



                          That doesn't contradict anything I wrote.
                          Nice try, though.



                          I guess you forgot this is the MORMONISM forum.
                          If you have questions about Christianity, try asking them in one of the CHRISTIAN forums.

                          It's absolutely amazing (or maybe not really) that Mormons put so much effort into DODGING questions and verses relating to MORMON theology in the MORMONISM forum, and instead try to constantly DODGE their own beliefs and instead try to attack Christianity.

                          If Mormons are so utterly incapable of defending their false beliefs here, why should anyone be stupid enough to convert to Mormonism?



                          You seem confused.

                          There is no such thing as "optional prerequisites".
                          All prerequisites, by DEFINITION, are "essential".
                          "requisite" has the same root as "required".



                          Then you contradict Eph. 2:8-9, Tit. 3:5, 2 Tim. 1:9, Rom. 4:1-5, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc. etc.



                          No, actually, He didn't.
                          And if you had actually bothered to READ my OP, you would have understood that.



                          What you are describing is called a "correlation", NOT a "causation".
                          Jesus taught that they go together.
                          How they ACTUALLY relate is that salvation leads to good works (eg. Eph. 2:10, Phil. 2:13), NOT the other way around.



                          Did everyone notice that I didn't even MENTION "total depravity"?
                          All I did was quote Isa. 64:6.

                          So thank you to the Mormon for admitting that he REJECTS Isa. 64!



                          Yep, that's a pretty lame excuse for ignoring all the "not by works" passages, and claiming a salvation (basically) by works, while trying to deny that you are actually rejecting Scripture. The VAST MAJORITY of those "not by works" passages make NO REFERENCE specifically to the "law", and you do NOT get to CHANGE the context to try to make it fit your false theology.
                          Hey Theo, look at this:

                          https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/ch...lation?q=Saved

                          Post no. 8, where the poster writes this:

                          (from me) But then, if we are saved by grace through faith and NOT by our works--what else is there left to be saved by?

                          ******************
                          Nothing. We are saved by God's grace. Not by faith, nor works--but by God's grace.
                          Interesting, huh? Yet later on this same poster admits that keeping the commandments is a "work we do."

                          https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/th...estimony/page2

                          Post no. 21. Also look at my post no. 32. I think this same poster has made receiving God's salvational grace conditional upon keeping the commandments...Yet who but Jesus Christ ever kept them perfectly in this life?

                          Anyway, see the contradictions and oxymoronic statements?
                          "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                          "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                          “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                          "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                          "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            BOJ, the bottom line is that you are saved by grace AFTER ALL YOU CAN DO according to your Book of Mormon 2 Nephi verse. No grace for salvation UNTIL after all you can do happens. Your Book of Mormon. Your "prophet" writing it. Not believed by born-again Christians. And whatever all you can do will never be enough because there will always have been something more you could have done.
                            I am just a miserable sinner saved by grace, called according to His purposes, made righteous and holy by faith in Jesus and who can now boldly enter the throne room of heaven itself.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by BrotherofJared View Post
                              Then everyone is saved, what's your problem then? According to this, even Mormons are saved.
                              Wrong again.

                              If I give my children a free gift, why do YOU assume that Iím giving YOU the gift as well?!
                              "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
                              --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
                              but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
                              -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

                              Comment

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