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I'm considered part of a cult?

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  • I'm considered part of a cult?

    Just because I believe Jesus and the Father are One? Jesus Himself even used this exact phrase..

    And what of this?

    Isaiah 9:6
    For unto us a Child is born,
    Unto us a Son is given;
    And the government will be upon His shoulder.
    And His name will be called
    Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
    How can I be a cultist if Isaiah says Jesus will be called Everlasting Father?

    Is Isaiah a heretic as well as I?
    At least I am in good conpany.
    "In faith, there is enough light for those who want to believe, and enough shadows to blind those who don't." -Blaise Pascal

  • #2
    Let me add that I'm deeply offended that Oneness is grouped with masons and Christadelphisns, when I have no issues or anger in my heart toward Trinitarians even though I believe they are in error, i dont believe its a salvation issue--I love trinitarians, and I would never dare call them a cult. God will judge the owner of this site for lumping us in with masons.
    "In faith, there is enough light for those who want to believe, and enough shadows to blind those who don't." -Blaise Pascal

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Undead View Post
      Just because I believe Jesus and the Father are One? Jesus Himself even used this exact phrase..

      And what of this?


      How can I be a cultist if Isaiah says Jesus will be called Everlasting Father?

      Is Isaiah a heretic as well as I?
      At least I am in good conpany.
      Can you please point me to the passage in the NT in which Jesus is called Everlasting Father?

      Secondly, what do you suppose Isaiah in context meant by his use of the title "Everlasting Father" in Isa. 9:6?

      For the record, I attended a UPCI church for some 28+ years and as such am thoroughly familiar with Isa. 9:6.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by forever4truth View Post

        Can you please point me to the passage in the NT in which Jesus is called Everlasting Father?

        Secondly, what do you suppose Isaiah in context meant by his use of the title "Everlasting Father" in Isa. 9:6?

        For the record, I attended a UPCI church for some 28+ years and as such am thoroughly familiar with Isa. 9:6.
        Firstly, why is it necessary that it be in the NT as well as the OT? Aren't there some things that are true that are only in the OT but not the new?
        Isn't your question a bit like asking "Yes I realize when the OT says "The Angel of the Lord" it is referring to Jesus, but can you point me to the passage in the NT where Jesus is called "The Angel of The Lord?"

        Secondly, you asked me what do I suppose Isaiah, in context meant by his use of the title "Everlasting Father"
        Didn't you read my OP?
        Just because I believe Jesus and the Father are One? Jesus Himself even used this exact phrase..
        PS: I have no idea what UPCI church means, and I'm against most denominations. I consider myself a Christian.
        Now let me ask you a question: Without contorting, why do we take Prince of Peace and Mighty God to mean precisely what they say, but when we get to the Everlasting Father part, we somehow do mental gymnastics to make it means something less than what it says.

        Also, and this question is for MattSlick I can't hardly believe my eyes that you have Seventh Day Adventists and King James Only in Theology as if they are not cults, but someone who plainly believes Jesus when He says "I and the Father are One" is somehow an unsaved Branch Davidian? Are you sure you've thought this through?

        If you are a Trinitarian, when God spoke the Word (which we know the Word became flesh and dwelt among us) and created the heavens and the earth, do you picture Him tapping Jesus on the shoulder and then Jesus speaking "Let there be light" Or do you suppose the FATHER SPOKE THE WORD OUT OF HIS MOUTH? So then Trinitarians must then necessarily believe that at one time Jesus was INSIDE GOD's MOUTH to form the Words of creation. Otherwise we cannot reconcile Colossians Chapter 1 with Genesis 1.
        To be a Trinitarian means you have to believe that before the Word became flesh, it was in the mouth of the Father--so that the Father spoke the worlds and the heavens into existence via the voice of Jesus (or something strange like that) and then before Jesus was born, there was a duality instead of a Trinity, and as soon as Jesus was made flesh, we had 3 "distinct persons".
        I for one, cannot wrap my mind around your theology. But I would never dare think myself high enough to call Trinitarian beliefs a cult-- how dare he call Oneness a cult (if that's what I am--I'm not even sure--because I actually agree with the Trinity -- I just define it and think about it differently--isn't there room in the body for some of us to have a better revelation than others?
        How dare he, just because I take Jesus at His Word when He says "If you have seen Me, you've seen the Father." (don't bother supposing to explain to me what that actually means--because I know how you contort it to mean "Me and my Dad are on the same page so-to-speak" keep that nonsense to yourself please. You are not teaching me anything. I believe the Words that came out of Jesus' own mouth, not your contortionist gymnastics. (Sorry if that offends, but I, myself am offended to find out that other dear brothers of mine consider me to be in a cult after being saved for 26 years I am just now finding out I'm a Branch Davidian or something--- how awful-- how has this happened that Seventh Day Adventists are not a cult, nor King James Only, but a literal interpretation of Jesus' own words is a cult?
        Crazy! Offensive! Outrageous!

        EDIT: IT'S NOT EVEN A SALVATION ISSUE, SO HOW CAN IT BE A CULT?
        "In faith, there is enough light for those who want to believe, and enough shadows to blind those who don't." -Blaise Pascal

        Comment


        • #5
          Hold up..

          First off, I believe I know where this division comes from-- it appears that anyone that does not believe in speaking in tongues is for today is considered a heretic/cultist.

          Secondly, this website DOES NOT REPRESENT WHAT I BELIEVE:
          http://www.marketfaith.org/the-hidde...entecostalism/

          This is the only part I agree with:
          Recently a well-known pastor, television preacher, and best-selling author was asked about his beliefs about God. He coyly answered that he believed in one God who manifests himself in three ways: the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. He said that God the Father was the One True God of the Old Testament. He became a man as the Son, Jesus Christ. When Jesus ascended he sent the Holy Ghost to empower the church. He stated clearly that he believes in only one God – not three.
          But he goes on to say:
          Now most Christians would read his statement and assume he believes in the traditional Christian doctrine of the eternal Holy Trinity – One God in Three Persons. But that was not what he said. He said he believes in one God who manifests himself at different times in different ways: first as Father, second as Son; and third as Holy Ghost. This is actually representative of an ancient heresy known as Modalism (also called Sabellianism). It said there is only one God who appears at different times in different modes of existence. It is the official doctrine of God of several groups of churches who are usually called the Oneness Pentecostals. They are also known by other names such as the “Jesus Only” churches, “Apostolic Pentecostals,” The “Oneness Movement” and the “Jesus Name” Movement. These are what I call “the hidden cult of Oneness Pentecostalism.”
          ^This part is baloney-- because no one taught me this doctrine-- I simply read my Bible and was shown this by the Holy Spirit of God. I have never been to a Pentecostal church in my life.

          Then he flat out lies about these things that do not pertain to me or my Christian walk WHAT-SO-EVER:

          There is Only One God
          Oneness Pentecostals declare that the Godhead consists of only one Person and deny the traditional doctrine of the Trinity. They maintain that the only real “person” in the Godhead is Jesus. (This does not apply to me) Thus, they are often referred to as the “Jesus Only” Movement. They maintain that God exists in two modes, as the Father in heaven and as Jesus the Son on earth.(This does not apply to me)Nevertheless, they are the same person, not two separate persons. The Holy Spirit is not regarded as a person at all, merely a manifestation of Jesus’ power or a synonym for Him(This does not apply to me).
          So how can I be part of the Oneness cult?

          Further he lies even more regarding what is necessary for salvation FOR YOUR INFORMATION I was water Baptized in the Name of the Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit -- as were my Children when they became of age.

          Salvation

          The Oneness Pentecostal movements generally teach that to receive and maintain salvation, a person must adhere to four essential requirements.
          1. A person must have faith in Jesus Only. Oneness teachers would agree that salvation requires putting one’s full faith in the Jesus of Oneness doctrine. That is, the Jesus who is the totality of the Godhead, who died on the cross as make atonement for sin, and who rose again from the dead.(This does not apply to me)
          2. A person must repent and be baptized by immersion in the “Name of Jesus.” Acts 2:38 is used as evidence that the early church baptized only in the name of Jesus. They maintain that baptism in the Trinitarian formula is invalid since it implies belief in three gods. They claim Matthew 28:19 is not to be taken as a command to baptize in that formula.(This does not apply to me)
          3. A person must speak in tongues. Like most traditional Pentecostals and Charismatics, Oneness Pentecostals teach that speaking in tongues is a gift to be exercised today. However, unlike most traditionalists, the Oneness movements maintain that speaking in tongues is not just a post-conversion indicator of the filling or baptism of the Holy Spirit, but an essential ingredient in the salvation experience itself. In other words, if a person has never spoken in tongues, he or she is not saved!(This does not apply to me) I am glad I speak in tongues more than you all--but it is not necessary for salvation, and I have never heard anyone utter this out of their mouth.
          4. A person must abide by strict and legalistic standards of holiness. Most Oneness Pentecostals teach that once salvation is gained initially by the preceding ingredients, it must be maintained by daily adherence to legalistic codes of personal behavior. Alcohol and tobacco are prohibited. Women are not allowed to cut their hair, wear short dresses or slacks, use make-up, or wear jewelry. Men are expected to dress conservatively (white shirts and dark slacks), be clean shaven, and have short haircuts. Violations of these codes may result in a loss of salvation and exclusion from church fellowship.(This does not apply to me) I use cannabis (hemp CBD) and drink an occasional beer. My wife wears jeans and hardly ever wears a dress.

          Some small Oneness groups also practice handling poisonous snakes or drinking poison to demonstrate their faith and holiness based on Mark 16:18 in the King James Version. (This does not apply to me) This is utterly ridiculous.
          What this boils down to is that if you speak in tongues, you are allowing the Devil to speak through you-- according to the typical evangelical.

          This is ridiculous since most of this is probably either not true, or does not pertain to me at all. There needs to be a place for people like me that simple believe the very first paragraph that the author of this website wrote-- but NONE OF THE REST OF IT. Handling snakes? Are you serious? You lump me in with these nuts? WOW
          "In faith, there is enough light for those who want to believe, and enough shadows to blind those who don't." -Blaise Pascal

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Undead View Post
            Just because I believe Jesus and the Father are One? Jesus Himself even used this exact phrase..

            And what of this?


            How can I be a cultist if Isaiah says Jesus will be called Everlasting Father?

            Is Isaiah a heretic as well as I?
            At least I am in good conpany.
            I personally don't like the term "cult" because it is such an ambiguous term. Indeed, I prefer to reserve the use of the term only for those in which the psychological aspects are present. At any rate, here is good list of meanings:

            Cult: From the Latin word "cultus" -- meaning worship. Cult is a word with many religious meanings (and some secular as well) which should be used with great care to avoid misunderstanding. We recommend the neutral term "new religious movement" be used in its place. An even better practice is to refer to a religious group by its name:
            1. Traditional theological usage: a style of worship and its associated rituals. It can be applied to any faith group.
            2. Sociological usage: a small religious group that exists in a state of tension with the predominant religion; e.g. Christianity in Pakistan.
            3. General religious usage: a small, recently created religious group; not a variant of an established religion. Often headed by a single charismatic leader.
            4. Evangelical usage: a religious group that considers themselves to be Christian but which denies one or more historical beliefs of Protestant Christianity.
            5. Counter-cult movement usage: Same as Evangelical usage.
            6. Anti-cult movement usage: a small, evil religious group, often with a single charismatic leader, who engage in deceptive recruiting, brainwashing and other mind control techniques to reduce the membership to near-zombie state.
            7. Popular belief: A doomsday, dangerous, destructive religious movement whose members risk their life to belong.
            (From "religious tolerance")

            As you can see, what is meant by "cult" as it is used on CARM (and by those who use the term in books and so forth in regard to Oneness) is #4. In that Oneness deny the doctrine of the Trinity, this definition would identify Oneness as a "cult." That is all that is meant by the term in this instance (although the average person tends to believe that what is being communicated is #6 and #7, which is why I do not like the term being used for heretical sects, i.e. #4).

            TheLayman

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Undead View Post
              Just because I believe Jesus and the Father are One? Jesus Himself even used this exact phrase..

              And what of this?


              How can I be a cultist if Isaiah says Jesus will be called Everlasting Father?

              Is Isaiah a heretic as well as I?
              At least I am in good conpany.
              They are two distinct people one in heart and soul and purpose. Not in body. Jesus is our everlasting Father only in that He is our Creator but He created all things under the direction of the Father.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Undead View Post
                Just because I believe Jesus and the Father are One? Jesus Himself even used this exact phrase..

                And what of this?


                How can I be a cultist if Isaiah says Jesus will be called Everlasting Father?

                Is Isaiah a heretic as well as I?
                At least I am in good conpany.
                Greeting Undead,

                Isaiah 9:6 does not say the Son will be called Everlasting Father. It says, "And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

                The following verse sheds some light on verse 6.

                Isa 9:7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

                Do you honestly believe that the Father will reign on the throne of David? We see the fulfillment of Isaiah 9:6-7 in Luke 1.

                Luk 1:31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS.
                Luk 1:32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.
                Luk 1:33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Undead View Post
                  I'm considered part of a cult? Just because I believe Jesus and the Father are One? Jesus Himself even used this exact phrase..
                  It's not what you say, it's what you mean by those words.
                  One is part of a cult, Oneness, if they believe Jesus and the Father are the same person. However, Jesus said
                  "I and my Father, we are one." The plural is found in the Greek verb. Therefore, it is utterly impossible to draw from this passing comment that Jesus and the Father are the same person.

                  And what of this?
                  Isaiah 9:6
                  For unto us a Child is born,
                  Unto us a Son is given;
                  And the government will be upon His shoulder.
                  And His name will be called
                  Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
                  Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

                  How can I be a cultist if Isaiah says Jesus will be called Everlasting Father?
                  Because, Isaiah 9:6 isn't teaching that Jesus is the Father. The OT clearly uses the term Father in a different way from how the NT uses that word. OT usage normally refers to the God being creator while NT usage relates to our relationship to God as adopted children of God, or Jesus', as the Son, relationship with the Father.

                  Is Isaiah a heretic as well as I?
                  At least I am in good conpany.
                  Nope, Isaiah isn't a heretic; you are simply going far, far beyond what Isaiah meant as to claim your dogma.

                  God Bless

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Let me just add that y'all are weird when you do this:

                    Isaiah 9:6
                    For unto us a Child is born,
                    Unto us a Son is given;
                    And the government will be upon His shoulder.
                    And His name will be called
                    Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
                    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
                    And his name will be called:
                    Wonderful (Check!)
                    Counselor (Check!)
                    Mighty God (Check!)
                    Everlasting Father (Wait, now hold on a second...)
                    Prince of Peace (Check!)

                    So for all the others they are straight-forward and literal, but for Everlasting Father, let's do some mental gymnastics to make it mean something else.

                    WEIRD
                    "In faith, there is enough light for those who want to believe, and enough shadows to blind those who don't." -Blaise Pascal

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Undead View Post
                      Let me add that I'm deeply offended that Oneness is grouped with masons and Christadelphisns, when I have no issues or anger in my heart toward Trinitarians even though I believe they are in error, i dont believe its a salvation issue--I love trinitarians, and I would never dare call them a cult. God will judge the owner of this site for lumping us in with masons.
                      First of all, you don't seem to understand the Scriptures.
                      In Hebrew the term "Father" often means "creator".
                      For instance:

                      Deut. 32:6 Do you thus repay the LORD,
                      you foolish and senseless people?
                      Is not he your father, who created you,
                      who made you and established you?

                      Is. 64:8 But now, O LORD, you are our Father;
                      we are the clay, and you are our potter;
                      awe are all the work of your hand.

                      Mal. 2:10 Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us?
                      Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our fathers?


                      So when Jesus will be called, "Everlasting Father", that's not calling Him "God the Father", it's simply referring to Him as the Eternal Creator.


                      Originally posted by Undead View Post
                      Let me add that I'm deeply offended that Oneness is grouped with masons and Christadelphisns, when I have no issues or anger in my heart toward Trinitarians even though I believe they are in error, i dont believe its a salvation issue--I love trinitarians, and I would never dare call them a cult. God will judge the owner of this site for lumping us in with masons.
                      You would never call Trinitarians a cult, because they're not.
                      You seem to agree that Masons and Christadelphians are cults. I'm sure they're offended by that, just as you are offended.
                      Big deal. All of them are cults, and your personal emotional reactions are irrelevant to the facts.
                      "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
                      but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
                      -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

                        First of all, you don't seem to understand the Scriptures.
                        In Hebrew the term "Father" often means "creator".
                        For instance:

                        Deut. 32:6 Do you thus repay the LORD,
                        you foolish and senseless people?
                        Is not he your father, who created you,
                        who made you and established you?

                        Is. 64:8 But now, O LORD, you are our Father;
                        we are the clay, and you are our potter;
                        awe are all the work of your hand.

                        Mal. 2:10 Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us?
                        Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our fathers?


                        So when Jesus will be called, "Everlasting Father", that's not calling Him "God the Father", it's simply referring to Him as the Eternal Creator.





                        You would never call Trinitarians a cult, because they're not.
                        You seem to agree that Masons and Christadelphians are cults. I'm sure they're offended by that, just as you are offended.
                        Big deal. All of them are cults, and your personal emotional reactions are irrelevant to the facts.
                        First of all, don't tell me I don't understand Scripture, as if you are taking authority over me.

                        Edit: Father meaning creator changed what exactly? Especially in light of Colossians 1 where it says Jesus is the Creator. EDITED

                        You don't understand what I'm saying at all. So I will disregard everything you just said.
                        Let me explain something to you EDITED

                        There is a group who call themselves Westboro Baptists, and they carry signs at people's funerals that says awful and sinful things that I cannot repeat on this board---I'm sure you know what I'm talking about--they carry signs that say "God hates (homosexuals)!" except they do not use that word, they use a word that starts with an "F". So what I'm trying to get across to you, is that it would be silly to group this particular "Baptist" in with the other Baptists such as "Free will Baptists" Ana-Baptists, 1st Baptist, etc.. and then call the whole group a cult. And likewise, there is a small sect of oneness that takes up snakes and drinks poison--which has NOTHING TO DO WITH ME.
                        Do you understand what I'm saying at this time?

                        So my whole beef with this whole oneness thing is that the ONLY thing I have in common with Oneness is that I believe Jesus and Father are One. SO if Oneness means a list of 10 items, I only believe one of them, and it's probably not even the way you think I believe.
                        I believe EXACTLY as this man believes in his opening paragraph: Dr. Alister McGrath: Trinitarian (Will you listen to him at least?)


                        Which is the following:
                        Dr. McGrath ends with this commentary:

                        “We can now see why Christians talk about God being a ‘three-in-one’. One difficulty remains, however, which must be considered. How can God be three persons and one person at the same time? This brings us to an important point which is often not fully understood. The following is a simplified account of the idea of ‘person’ which may be helpful, although the reader must appreciate that simplifications are potentially dangerous. The word ‘person’ has changed its meaning since the third century when it began to bed used in connection with the ‘threefoldness of God’. When we talk about God as a person, we naturally think of God as being one person. But theologians such as Tertullian, writing in the third century, used the word ‘person’ with a different meaning. The word ‘person’ originally derives from the Latin word persona, meaning an actor’s face-mask – and, by extension, the role which he takes in a play.

                        “By stating that there were three persons but only one God, Tertullian was asserting that all three major roles in the great drama of human redemption are played by the one and the same God. The three great roles in this drama are all played by the same actor: God. Each of these roles may reveal God in a somewhat different way, but it is the same God in every case. So when we talk about God as one person, we mean one person in the modern sense of the word, and when we talk about God as three persons, we mean three persons in the ancient sense of the word. It is God, and God alone, who masterminded and executes the great plan of salvation, culminating in Jesus Christ. It is he who is present and active at every stage of its long history. Confusing these two senses of the word ‘person’ inevitably leads to the idea the God is actually a committee, which, as we saw earlier, is a thoroughly unhelpful and confusing way of thinking about God.”
                        So when you say to me:
                        and your personal emotional reactions are irrelevant to the facts.
                        DO NOT suppose that you are teaching me anything.
                        What I found out is, that I am as Trinitarian as any of the others on the Trinitarian board--except maybe I have a better understanding via the Holy Spirit than some of you.
                        Just so you know, I am not a baby-Christian that was just saved 3 years ago-- I was saved in 1991. EDITED

                        I am NON-DENOMINATIONAL.
                        Because Sectarianism is carnal, but I'm sure you knew that. I'm not neither Oneness, nor Trinitarian--but as far as the understanding of the Godhead. I know exactly that my understanding aligns with Scripture. So I appreciate your concern, but seeing as how you were probably saved less than a decade ago--and l bet you belong to a denomination, then perhaps this may apply to you:

                        Proverbs 17:28


                        28 Even a fool is counted wise when he holds his peace;
                        When he shuts his lips, he is considered perceptive.
                        Last edited by Mod10; 06-16-18, 12:32 PM. Reason: alert: rule 12; infraction given
                        "In faith, there is enough light for those who want to believe, and enough shadows to blind those who don't." -Blaise Pascal

                        Comment


                        • #13

                          EDIT: Also regarding the Masons and Christadelphians being cults... how does Matt explain the fact that 7th Day Adventists, King James Only and New Age is NOT considered a cult? LAUGHABLE! RIDICULOUS!
                          Trinitarians my not be considered a cult, but if you are in a denomination, no matter what it is-- Baptist, Lutheran, Calvinism, 5th Baptist Church, 13th Baptist Church, Free Will Baptist, YOU ARE WRONG.
                          1 Corinthians 3:4-6


                          4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

                          5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

                          6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
                          1 Corinthians 1:11-17
                          11 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

                          14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. 16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
                          EDITED
                          Last edited by Mod10; 06-16-18, 12:34 PM. Reason: rule 12; infraction given
                          "In faith, there is enough light for those who want to believe, and enough shadows to blind those who don't." -Blaise Pascal

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Undead View Post

                            First of all, don't tell me I don't understand Scripture, as if you are taking authority over me.

                            Edit: Father meaning creator changed what exactly? Especially in light of Colossians 1 where it says Jesus is the Creator. EDITED

                            You don't understand what I'm saying at all. So I will disregard everything you just said.
                            Let me explain something to you EDITED

                            There is a group who call themselves Westboro Baptists, and they carry signs at people's funerals that says awful and sinful things that I cannot repeat on this board---I'm sure you know what I'm talking about--they carry signs that say "God hates (homosexuals)!" except they do not use that word, they use a word that starts with an "F". So what I'm trying to get across to you, is that it would be silly to group this particular "Baptist" in with the other Baptists such as "Free will Baptists" Ana-Baptists, 1st Baptist, etc.. and then call the whole group a cult. And likewise, there is a small sect of oneness that takes up snakes and drinks poison--which has NOTHING TO DO WITH ME.
                            Do you understand what I'm saying at this time?

                            So my whole beef with this whole oneness thing is that the ONLY thing I have in common with Oneness is that I believe Jesus and Father are One. SO if Oneness means a list of 10 items, I only believe one of them, and it's probably not even the way you think I believe.
                            I believe EXACTLY as this man believes in his opening paragraph: Dr. Alister McGrath: Trinitarian (Will you listen to him at least?)


                            Which is the following:


                            So when you say to me: DO NOT suppose that you are teaching me anything.
                            What I found out is, that I am as Trinitarian as any of the others on the Trinitarian board--except maybe I have a better understanding via the Holy Spirit than some of you.
                            Just so you know, I am not a baby-Christian that was just saved 3 years ago-- I was saved in 1991. EDITED

                            I am NON-DENOMINATIONAL.
                            Because Sectarianism is carnal, but I'm sure you knew that. I'm not neither Oneness, nor Trinitarian--but as far as the understanding of the Godhead. I know exactly that my understanding aligns with Scripture. So I appreciate your concern, but seeing as how you were probably saved less than a decade ago--and l bet you belong to a denomination, then perhaps this may apply to you:
                            This is the problem here--Trinitarians do NOT teach that God is three Persons in one Person. That is like saying there three personalities in one personality. God is three Persons in ONE BEING. We don't know how God can do that, but, since He is infinite and uncreated and we are finite and limited, I expect God to be a bit more...complicated than we are. He can do what we cannot.

                            As for having a "problem" being three persons in one person (which is NOT what we believe or teach), we too also believe that Jesus and His Father are "one"-One Being Who is God, but NOT ONE PERSON.

                            And non-denomination is still a group.
                            "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                            "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                            "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                            "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                            "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

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                            • #15

                              Originally posted by Undead View Post
                              Let me add that I'm deeply offended that Oneness is grouped with masons and Christadelphisns, when I have no issues or anger in my heart toward Trinitarians even though I believe they are in error, i dont believe its a salvation issue--I love trinitarians, and I would never dare call them a cult. God will judge the owner of this site for lumping us in with masons.
                              Hello Undead,

                              True story. The other day at my work place there is this new person who was hired in a week ago. He was trying to make friendly talks when he mention "Do you believe in JESUS"? At first, I didn't realized in the context to his question of Jesus Only. I realized that later after questioning what he believes. I replied that, "Yes, I believe in Jesus, I am a Christian". He started talking about him being a pastor for 9 years and that Jesus loves me. I simply stopped him in the middle of him talking and asked: "What church you belong to?" He replied, "I am Apostolic Pentecostal". I was like, "Ah, so you are Oneness?"

                              He started to get defensive and ranting on about don't worry about our different doctrines as long you believe in JESUS. His defensive attitude makes me think he encountered other Christians that confrounted his Oneness beliefs. So, I started to ask him basic fundamental doctrines like, "Do you believe in the Trinity?" Etc. He denied every fundamental doctrines that Christians taught for 1800 centuries. I was prepared and ready to preach the Gospel. He is considered a "cultist" just by asking basic questions and thanks to CARM foruma for training me these past several years.

                              Although, I admire his zeal of wanting to witness but he has a false Jesus and Gospel. And what Christians mean when we call groups' cults or individually cultist, is not in a derogatory sense, but that they deviated and departed from the normative basic fundamental doctrines of Christianity. Oneness, Christadelphians , Jehovah Witness, LDS, etc. has all departed from the faith into another gospel. Like how you believe that the man Jesus in Isaiah 9:6 is literally God the Father. Since you don't belong to the Oneness group, then you would be considered a heretic and not a cultist. There are plenty of people in this thread who is willing to discuss Isaiah 9:6 with you and I encourage you to seek the answer because its not found in Oneness version of Christology.

                              Interdenominational (Respecting all Churches by demonstrating the power of Biblical unity).

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