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Neal...how is Jesus "the first and the last" in the SAME sense as His Father?

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  • Neal...how is Jesus "the first and the last" in the SAME sense as His Father?

    “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
    And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
    ‘I am the First and I am the Last;
    Besides Me there is no God.​​​​​​" (Isa 44:6, NKJV)

    17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death" (Rev. 1:17-18, NKJV)

  • #2
    Originally posted by forever4truth View Post
    “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
    And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
    ‘I am the First and I am the Last;
    Besides Me there is no God.​​​​​​" (Isa 44:6, NKJV)

    17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death" (Rev. 1:17-18, NKJV)
    It's obvious that there can only be one "first". He is not "a first", but "the first". He is not "a first" doing something, but simply "the first" as in the source, the principle mover of all things. Jesus is God the Father come to us in the flesh. Keep reading through Isaiah 45:23 along with Philippians 2:10. There is only one name given to men to confess, bow, and call upon to be saved. So, God is going to tell everyone to confess and bow at the name of just a man?

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Neal View Post

      It's obvious that there can only be one "first". He is not "a first", but "the first". He is not "a first" doing something, but simply "the first" as in the source, the principle mover of all things.
      While it goes w/o saying that God the Father is the SOURCE of all things, as attested by such passages as 1 Cor 8:6 & Heb 2:9, but that's clearly not the sense in which Jesus is being identified as "the first and the last" in Rev. 1:17-18, since in context, it is related to this death & resurrection.

      .. Keep reading through Isaiah 45:23 along with Philippians 2:10. There is only one name given to men to confess, bow, and call upon to be saved. So, God is going to tell everyone to confess and bow at the name of just a man?
      Yep, the name [person] given by God among men whereby we can be saved is none other than the name [person] of the man named Jesus the Nazarene.

      10 Let me clearly state to all of you and to all the people of Israel that he was healed by the powerful name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, the man you crucified but whom God raised from the dead. 11 For Jesus is the one referred to in the Scriptures, where it says,

      ‘The stone that you builders rejected
      has now become the cornerstone.’

      12 There is salvation in no one else! God has given no other name under heaven by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:10-12, NLT)



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      • #4
        Originally posted by forever4truth View Post

        While it goes w/o saying that God the Father is the SOURCE of all things, as attested by such passages as 1 Cor 8:6 & Heb 2:9, but that's clearly not the sense in which Jesus is being identified as "the first and the last" in Rev. 1:17-18, since in context, it is related to this death & resurrection.



        Yep, the name [person] given by God among men whereby we can be saved is none other than the name [person] of the man named Jesus the Nazarene.

        10 Let me clearly state to all of you and to all the people of Israel that he was healed by the powerful name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, the man you crucified but whom God raised from the dead. 11 For Jesus is the one referred to in the Scriptures, where it says,

        ‘The stone that you builders rejected
        has now become the cornerstone.’

        12 There is salvation in no one else! God has given no other name under heaven by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:10-12, NLT)


        The text of Rev 1:17-18 doesn't directly connect the death/resurrection with his title as "first" and "last" as if to mean I am the first resurrected and the last resurrected. You could stretch it to mean he was the first resurrected, but not the last resurrected. That's nonsensical. "First and Last" go together in this context and you can't pick and choose if your going to be consistent.

        Then in Rev 22:12-13 there is no mention whatsoever of his resurrection, just the full titles that only belong to God Himself.... Rev 22:12-13 " 12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.


        Finally, NO ONE as a Oneness believer denies that Jesus is a real man and he died for our sins. The Holy Spirit can't die. God had to become man in order to be the Lamb. But, the Lamb is in the center of the throne (Rev 7:17)
        Last edited by Neal; 08-08-18, 10:40 AM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Neal View Post

          The text of Rev 1:17-18 doesn't directly connect the death/resurrection with his title as "first" and "last" as if to mean I am the first resurrected and the last resurrected. You could stretch it to mean he was the first resurrected, but not the last resurrected. That's nonsensical. "First and Last" go together in this context and you can't pick and choose if your going to be consistent.

          Then in Rev 22:12-13 there is no mention whatsoever of his resurrection, just the full titles that only belong to God Himself.... Rev 22:12-13 " 12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.


          Finally, NO ONE as a Oneness believer denies that Jesus is a real man and he died for our sins. The Holy Spirit can't die. God had to become man in order to be the Lamb. But, the Lamb is in the center of the throne (Rev 7:17)
          Take the last part of v17 and the first part of v18 - and it will connect the dots:

          And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead, and He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid, I am the First and the Last,

          18 and the living One. And I became dead, and see, I am living forever and ever. Amĕn. And I possess the keys of She’oland of Death.

          Becoming dead and living forever comes later. It shows it's same Yahuah who manifested in flesh.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Neal View Post

            The text of Rev 1:17-18 doesn't directly connect the death/resurrection with his title as "first" and "last" as if to mean I am the first resurrected and the last resurrected. You could stretch it to mean he was the first resurrected, but not the last resurrected. That's nonsensical. "First and Last" go together in this context and you can't pick and choose if your going to be consistent.
            While specifically not the point I was trying to make, the man Jesus was the first and the last to be resurrected to eternal life (immortality) by God personally, since all others will be resurrected by the authority His Son (John 5:22-27).

            That said, the fact that his statement, "I am the first and the last" is followed by his words, "I am the living One, I died, and am alive forevermore" contextually relate to his death & resurrection. There's simply no getting around this contextually.

            Again, his words, "I died" unquestionably relate to his death, and his words "and am alive forevermore" (i.e., never to die again) relate to his resurrectionfrom death--to never die again ("For we know that Christ has been raised from death and will never die again--death will no longer rule over him"). His words, "I am the living One" serve to signify his authority or power over life, and his words, "and have the keys to death and Hades" signify his authority over death & Hades. Thus I understand the phrase "the first and the last" to essentially be a "title of authority" similar to Jesus' lordship of both the living and the dead.

            If you recall, Paul tells us in Rom 14:9 that Jesus died and rose again to become lord of both the living and the dead.

            "For Christ died and rose to life in order to be the Lord of the living and of the dead." (Rom 14:9, GNT)

            IOW, Jesus' lordship arises out of his death & resurrection. In the same way, I submit that Jesus' title "the first and the last" in Rev. 1:17 & 2:8 arises out of his death & resurrection.

            Obviously his point cannot be that "I am ETERNALLY God," but "I died, and am alive forevermore. To argue as such is nonsensical.


            Then in Rev 22:12-13 there is no mention whatsoever of his resurrection, just the full titles that only belong to God Himself.... Rev 22:12-13 " 12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
            I understand Rev. 22:13 to be referring to God, not to Jesus.

            Finally, NO ONE as a Oneness believer denies that Jesus is a real man and he died for our sins.
            If God the Father became a man named Jesus, then it follows he did not die as a real flesh and blood man but rather as a God-Man. Do you know any real flesh and blood men who are both God and Man, both Divine and Human, I certainly don't.

            The Holy Spirit can't die
            Why is that? Because the holy spirit is incorporeal? Why would the not the same apply to the Father? After all, Jesus emphatically declares in John 4:24 that "God is spirit."

            God had to become man in order to be the Lamb. But, the Lamb is in the center of the throne (Rev 7:17)
            Where in the NT does Paul teach that God HAD to become man in order to become his own Lamb?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by dannyfortruth View Post

              Take the last part of v17 and the first part of v18 - and it will connect the dots:

              And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead, and He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid, I am the First and the Last,

              18 and the living One. And I became dead, and see, I am living forever and ever. Amĕn. And I possess the keys of She’oland of Death.

              Becoming dead and living forever comes later. It shows it's same Yahuah who manifested in flesh.
              If that were the case (it isn't), then John would not have CONTRASTED or DISTINGUISHED God from Jesus throughout his book (Rev 1:4-5; 5:13b, 7:10, 11:14, 12:10a, 20:6b, 21:22-3, & 22:1)

              Secondly, the context shows that you actually have it backwards, as Jesus' bearing the title "the first and the last" is directly related to him overcoming death by means of his resurrection.

              Thirdly, never in Revelation is God ever said to have been manifested in the flesh. That has to be read into the text; it cannot be read out of it.

              Jesus is "the living One" in the sense that He is ALIVE from the dead.

              "Don’t fear: I am First, I am Last, I’m Alive. I died, but I came to life, and my life is now forever. See these keys in my hand? They open and lock Death’s doors, they open and lock Hell’s gates" (Rev. 1:18, MSG)

              That John does not mean here that the RISEN Jesus is "the living One" in the sense of being eternally God, can be seen by the fact that never in scripture does he or anyone else ever refer to him as "the living Son," unlike His God and Father, who IS referred to as "the living Father" and "the Living God."

              "As the living Father has sent me, even so do I live by my Father, and he that eats me, shall live by me" (John 6:57, NMB)

              The reason why the Father is called "the living Father" is because He alone INHERENTLY has life in Himself.

              Comment


              • #8
                [QUOTE]
                Originally posted by forever4truth View Post

                While specifically not the point I was trying to make, the man Jesus was the first and the last to be resurrected to eternal life (immortality) by God personally, since all others will be resurrected by the authority His Son (John 5:22-27).

                That said, the fact that his statement, "I am the first and the last" is followed by his words, "I am the living One, I died, and am alive forevermore" contextually relate to his death & resurrection. There's simply no getting around this contextually.

                Again, his words, "I died" unquestionably relate to his death, and his words "and am alive forevermore" (i.e., never to die again) relate to his resurrectionfrom death--to never die again ("For we know that Christ has been raised from death and will never die again--death will no longer rule over him"). His words, "I am the living One" serve to signify his authority or power over life, and his words, "and have the keys to death and Hades" signify his authority over death & Hades. Thus I understand the phrase "the first and the last" to essentially be a "title of authority" similar to Jesus' lordship of both the living and the dead.
                Jesus said "if you destroy this temple I WILL RAISE IT UP". Clearly he is more than a man, for a man can't raise himself from the dead.

                You said, "the last to be resurrected to eternal life by God personally". That's a huge stretch. Weak.

                If you recall, Paul tells us in Rom 14:9 that Jesus died and rose again to become lord of both the living and the dead.

                "For Christ died and rose to life in order to be the Lord of the living and of the dead." (Rom 14:9, GNT)

                IOW, Jesus' lordship arises out of his death & resurrection. In the same way, I submit that Jesus' title "the first and the last" in Rev. 1:17 & 2:8 arises out of his death & resurrection.

                Obviously his point cannot be that "I am ETERNALLY God," but "I died, and am alive forevermore. To argue as such is nonsensical.


                Same reply as above.

                [
                color="blue"]I understand Rev. 22:13 to be referring to God, not to Jesus.[/color]



                If God the Father became a man named Jesus, then it follows he did not die as a real flesh and blood man but rather as a God-Man. Do you know any real flesh and blood men who are both God and Man, both Divine and Human, I certainly don't.



                Why is that? Because the holy spirit is incorporeal? Why would the not the same apply to the Father? After all, Jesus emphatically declares in John 4:24 that "God is spirit."



                Where in the NT does Paul teach that God HAD to become man in order to become his own Lamb?
                Rev 22:12-13 - "Behold, I come quickly" means Jesus, right? You're changing speakers in verse 13?

                It's just not a legitimate or rational way to read. You're going through a lot of gyrations and twists to force your view.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by forever4truth View Post

                  If that were the case (it isn't), then John would not have CONTRASTED or DISTINGUISHED God from Jesus throughout his book (Rev 1:4-5; 5:13b, 7:10, 11:14, 12:10a, 20:6b, 21:22-3, & 22:1)

                  Secondly, the context shows that you actually have it backwards, as Jesus' bearing the title "the first and the last" is directly related to him overcoming death by means of his resurrection.

                  Thirdly, never in Revelation is God ever said to have been manifested in the flesh. That has to be read into the text; it cannot be read out of it.

                  Jesus is "the living One" in the sense that He is ALIVE from the dead.

                  "Don’t fear: I am First, I am Last, I’m Alive. I died, but I came to life, and my life is now forever. See these keys in my hand? They open and lock Death’s doors, they open and lock Hell’s gates" (Rev. 1:18, MSG)

                  That John does not mean here that the RISEN Jesus is "the living One" in the sense of being eternally God, can be seen by the fact that never in scripture does he or anyone else ever refer to him as "the living Son," unlike His God and Father, who IS referred to as "the living Father" and "the Living God."

                  "As the living Father has sent me, even so do I live by my Father, and he that eats me, shall live by me" (John 6:57, NMB)

                  The reason why the Father is called "the living Father" is because He alone INHERENTLY has life in Himself.
                  That's the problem you are trapped in your fleshly mind. The distinction is necessary as between Elohym and the firstborn son Israel.

                  I don't have it backwards but you do in your thinking because of the trap you have fallen into.

                  As representation of Israel, the Firstborn He was sent by The Father. He is Alaph and Tau, The Living One. You need His Spirit to connect with the harmony of scriptures.

                  You don't belong to Him so it's useless to argue with you. The same thing happened to unbelieving Jews because their hearts were hardened because they couldn't understand the Law was spiritual and Messiah is their Kinsman Redeemer. It's the same now with fleshly reading of scriptures without understanding The Spirit in the letter.
                  Last edited by dannyfortruth; 08-09-18, 09:45 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by dannyfortruth View Post

                    That's the problem you are trapped in your fleshly mind. The distinction is necessary as between Elohym and the firstborn son Israel.

                    I don't have it backwards but you do in your thinking because of the trap you have fallen into.

                    As representation of Israel, the Firstborn He was sent by The Father. He is Alaph and Tau, The Living One. You need His Spirit to connect with the harmony of scriptures.

                    You don't belong to Him so it's useless to argue with you. The same thing happened to unbelieving Jews because their hearts were hardened because they couldn't understand the Law was spiritual and Messiah is their Kinsman Redeemer. It's the same now with fleshly reading of scriptures without understanding The Spirit in the letter.
                    Nothing you said above contradicts what Forever believes. ONLY when you say Jesus is God Almighty, who sits or stands at the Right Hand of HIS God do you blaspheme sir.

                    Saying Forever don't belong to Him is making a judgement you are not authorized to make sir. I don't even make THAT judgement unto YOU sir.
                    Shema will change the Christian World.

                    Turn it upside down. To where it once was, the POV of JESUS, his DISCIPLES and his SERVANTS.

                    Know God YHWH Elohim is One. And love Him with all. Mk 12, red letter words.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by nothead View Post

                      Nothing you said above contradicts what Forever believes. ONLY when you say Jesus is God Almighty, who sits or stands at the Right Hand of HIS God do you blaspheme sir.

                      Saying Forever don't belong to Him is making a judgement you are not authorized to make sir. I don't even make THAT judgement unto YOU sir.
                      I don't see any difference between you and 4ever as same spirit prevails over you all like many others of fleshly mind to whom scriptures are off limits.

                      i can judge the doctrine as being spiritual and being judged by no one who don't demonstrate spiritual mind and oppose truth tooth and nail. The scriptures make clear on that.

                      If you can't believe Yahuah manifested in flesh as kinsman Redeemer, you aren't His. You will find that out soon.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by dannyfortruth View Post

                        That's the problem you are trapped in your fleshly mind. The distinction is necessary as between Elohym and the firstborn son Israel.

                        I don't have it backwards but you do in your thinking because of the trap you have fallen into.

                        As representation of Israel, the Firstborn He was sent by The Father. He is Alaph and Tau, The Living One. You need His Spirit to connect with the harmony of scriptures.

                        You don't belong to Him so it's useless to argue with you. The same thing happened to unbelieving Jews because their hearts were hardened because they couldn't understand the Law was spiritual and Messiah is their Kinsman Redeemer. It's the same now with fleshly reading of scriptures without understanding The Spirit in the letter.
                        As usual, you offer nothing from the text to refute my view, so you instead resort to condescending rhetoric totally non-related to what we are discussing.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by forever4truth View Post

                          As usual, you offer nothing from the text to refute my view, so you instead resort to condescending rhetoric totally non-related to what we are discussing.
                          There is nothing to refute a negative mind who can't understand the good news and twists all scriptures to adhere to fleshly mind.

                          If you can't believe that Yahuah came as Kinsman Redeemer then you are none of His. Scriptures are off limits to you:

                          Heb 2: 16 For, doubtless, He does not take hold of messengers, but He does take hold of the seed of Aḇraham.

                          17 So in every way He had to be made like His brothers
                          , in order to become a compassionate and trustworthy High Priest in matters related to Elohim, to make atonement for the sins of the people.

                          Heb 2: 11 For both He who sets apart and those who are being set apart are all of One, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brothers,

                          This is the foundation of good news to His brethren who are the sons/children of Elohym given to Him for salvation:

                          Heb 2:13 And again, “I shall put My trust in Him.” And again, “See, I and the children whom Elohim gave Me.”

                          14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself similarly shared in the same, so that by means of His death He might destroy him having the power of death, that is, the devil,

                          So, if you don't understand this, then everything in scriptures is hidden from your eyes -even Yahuah coming in flesh as Yahusha.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by dannyfortruth View Post

                            I don't see any difference between you and 4ever as same spirit prevails over you all like many others of fleshly mind to whom scriptures are off limits.

                            i can judge the doctrine as being spiritual and being judged by no one who don't demonstrate spiritual mind and oppose truth tooth and nail. The scriptures make clear on that.

                            If you can't believe Yahuah manifested in flesh as kinsman Redeemer, you aren't His. You will find that out soon.
                            This day I have begotten thee. Two Referents. One God. BEGOTTEN is not manifested and...God did not BEGET HIMSELF.

                            Retards will etard and do it again and again. With each other. You sir had better watch your mind.
                            Shema will change the Christian World.

                            Turn it upside down. To where it once was, the POV of JESUS, his DISCIPLES and his SERVANTS.

                            Know God YHWH Elohim is One. And love Him with all. Mk 12, red letter words.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by nothead View Post

                              This day I have begotten thee. Two Referents. One God. BEGOTTEN is not manifested and...God did not BEGET HIMSELF.

                              Retards will etard and do it again and again. With each other. You sir had better watch your mind.
                              That's your fleshly mind in operation. It's not about begetting Alahym but Yahuah fullfilling His own promises that no man born of Adam (including Adam) could fufill.

                              The man/adam was created flesh and wasn't a son of Elohym. Son of Elohym always operates in Ruach and not flesh. That's why The Son of Elohym had to be manifested in flesh inorder to convert fleshly Adam to spiritual sons of Elohym. Yahusha was both Son of Elohym and Son of Adam and when being tempted He operated in the Ruach of His Sonship and not in fleshly Adam. Therefore sin was condemned in His flesh on behalf of His chosen ones.

                              Secondly, He came as a representation of Israel, the firstborn son of Elohym. Yahusha wasn't The Son before like Trinitarians believe. He became that representation on behalf of Israel and demonstrated perfect obedience to The Turah on behalf of Israel and also became representation of OT offerings of perfect measure. Yahusha can't represent one and not other.

                              Yahusha presents His chosen ones as sons to Elohym becoming their kinsman Redeemer fullfilling Yahuah's declaration of Himself being The Kinsman Redeemer.

                              Yahusha also fullfilled to be the bridegroom of Israel, the woman (marriage to be consummated at His return) as Yahuah claimed to be the husband of Israel under OT.

                              You need His Ruach to be converted from fleshly Adam to son of Elohym. But you just don't demonstrate that as you are reading scriptures in fleshly mind which can never save.
                              Last edited by dannyfortruth; 08-12-18, 03:56 AM.

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