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Neal...how is Jesus "the first and the last" in the SAME sense as His Father?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by dannyfortruth View Post

    That's your fleshly mind in operation. It's not about begetting Alahym but Yahuah fullfilling His own promises that no man born of Adam (including Adam) could fufill.

    The man/adam was created flesh and wasn't a son of Elohym. Son of Elohym always operates in Ruach and not flesh. That's why The Son of Elohym had to be manifested in flesh inorder to convert fleshly Adam to spiritual sons of Elohym. Yahusha was both Son of Elohym and Son of Adam and when being tempted He operated in the Ruach of His Sonship and not in fleshly Adam. Therefore sin was condemned in His flesh on behalf of His chosen ones.

    Secondly, He came as a representation of Israel, the firstborn son of Elohym. Yahusha wasn't The Son before like Trinitarians believe. He became that representation on behalf of Israel and demonstrated perfect obedience to The Turah on behalf of Israel and also became representation of OT offerings of perfect measure. Yahusha can't represent one and not other.

    Yahusha presents His chosen ones as sons to Elohym becoming their kinsman Redeemer fullfilling Yahuah's declaration of Himself being The Kinsman Redeemer.

    Yahusha also fullfilled to be the bridegroom of Israel, the woman (marriage to be consummated at His return) as Yahuah claimed to be the husband of Israel under OT.

    You need His Ruach to be converted from fleshly Adam to son of Elohym. But you just don't demonstrate that as you are reading scriptures in fleshly mind which can never save.
    Blooper from the blip-blop, self-made bloopie. From the git-go. You cannot say anything right so then why would I go on reading?

    ....that no man born of Adam (including Adam) could fufill.
    This is TEXT sir? Or...rather that the NT authors saw Jesus as "the second (juxtaposed) ADAM?"

    Dingleberries will dangle. Don't be a ding-danged dingleberry here sir.
    Shema will change the Christian World.

    Turn it upside down. To where it once was, the POV of JESUS, his DISCIPLES and his SERVANTS.

    Know God YHWH Elohim is One. And love Him with all. Mk 12, red letter words.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by dannyfortruth View Post

      There is nothing to refute a negative mind who can't understand the good news and twists all scriptures to adhere to fleshly mind.

      If you can't believe that Yahuah came as Kinsman Redeemer then you are none of His. Scriptures are off limits to you:

      Heb 2: 16 For, doubtless, He does not take hold of messengers, but He does take hold of the seed of Aḇraham.

      17 So in every way He had to be made like His brothers
      , in order to become a compassionate and trustworthy High Priest in matters related to Elohim, to make atonement for the sins of the people.

      Heb 2: 11 For both He who sets apart and those who are being set apart are all of One, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brothers,

      This is the foundation of good news to His brethren who are the sons/children of Elohym given to Him for salvation:

      Heb 2:13 And again, “I shall put My trust in Him.” And again, “See, I and the children whom Elohim gave Me.”

      14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself similarly shared in the same, so that by means of His death He might destroy him having the power of death, that is, the devil,

      So, if you don't understand this, then everything in scriptures is hidden from your eyes -even Yahuah coming in flesh as Yahusha.
      As par for the course, none of the verses you cited have anything to do with Rev. 1:17. If you knew anything about Biblical Hermeneutics, your first response is to address the immediate context ("words" are always first and foremost defined by their immediate context), then the larger surrounding context, and then in light of the entire letter. Then an examination of other related texts is necessary, as well. It's never a good idea to run off to another book w/o first following the steps I outlined, unless of course, the same specific language or topic is being addressed.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by forever4truth View Post

        As par for the course, none of the verses you cited have anything to do with Rev. 1:17. If you knew anything about Biblical Hermeneutics, your first response is to address the immediate context ("words" are always first and foremost defined by their immediate context), then the larger surrounding context, and then in light of the entire letter. Then an examination of other related texts is necessary, as well. It's never a good idea to run off to another book w/o first following the steps I outlined, unless of course, the same specific language or topic is being addressed.
        You cry context context but the Book of Hebrews Ch 2, the scriptures I gave is from their proper context of Abraham's seed and how The Messiah calls them His brethren and how He is Kinsman Redeemer. This is the foundation of the good news (which is popularly known as the gospel in Christian world).

        Every epistle of NT is addressed to the 12 tribes. So if you don't have basics right how in the world you are ever going to understand the doctrine of The Father and The Son which are purely related to Israel?

        Harmony has to be with all scriptures without private interpretation. There can be no man made hermeneutics applicable to Elohym breathed scriptures. He has to give light and not carnal man. Sometimes in context, sometimes here a little there a little so that carnal man should fall backward. Yahuah has deliberately has done it so that the tree of life may be made only accessible to His elect.

        Book of Revelation is full of imageries from OT Turah and if one is divorced from OT Turah there is no way anyone could understand even 1% of what it means - far far away from you. The imagery of Messiah appearing to John as records is from OT - every point of His description and there you come with your private interpretation.

        The Book of Revelation is addressed to the 12 tribes as other books of NT. No doubt so many eschatology camps are erected by Christendom.

        Universal salvation is based on misinterpretation of the word GENTILES by Christendom.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by nothead View Post

          Blooper from the blip-blop, self-made bloopie. From the git-go. You cannot say anything right so then why would I go on reading?



          This is TEXT sir? Or...rather that the NT authors saw Jesus as "the second (juxtaposed) ADAM?"

          Dingleberries will dangle. Don't be a ding-danged dingleberry here sir.
          Just because you are not in a position to understand scriptures it doesn't mean what I wrote is not true.

          You are trapped with only flesh (veil) part of Messiah but not Son of Elohym. If He weren't Son of Elohym, He could save none. No wonder you can't understand the good news just as those carnal Jews.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by dannyfortruth View Post

            You cry context context but the Book of Hebrews Ch 2, the scriptures I gave is from their proper context of Abraham's seed and how The Messiah calls them His brethren and how He is Kinsman Redeemer. This is the foundation of the good news (which is popularly known as the gospel in Christian world).
            We're not discussing Hebrews 2, we're discussing Rev. 1:17. Do you see the title "the first and the last" being discussed in Heb. 2? No. So, as usual, when you can't defend your position on a particular thread, what do you do, you run to Heb 2, as if that's going to somehow help you.

            Let me know when you're ready to discuss Rev. 1:17 or another directly related passage that uses the same or similar title. Until then, you're just wasting me time.

            snip...[/color]

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Neal View Post
              Jesus said "if you destroy this temple I WILL RAISE IT UP". Clearly he is more than a man, for a man can't raise himself from the dead.
              How exactly does John 2:19 contextually relate to Rev. 1:17 or are you running off to another passage to try and demonstrate Jesus' deity?

              You said, "the last to be resurrected to eternal life by God personally". That's a huge stretch. Weak.
              How exactly is that a HUGH STRETCH?

              Same reply as above.
              Ok, so how exactly is anything I said below a HUGH STRETCH?

              "For Christ died and rose to life in order to be the Lord of the living and of the dead." (Rom 14:9, GNT)

              IOW, Jesus' lordship arises out of his death & resurrection. In the same way, I submit that Jesus' title "the first and the last" in Rev. 1:17 & 2:8 arises out of his death & resurrection.

              Obviously his point cannot be that "I am ETERNALLY God," but "I died, and am alive forevermore.


              Rev 22:12-13 - "Behold, I come quickly" means Jesus, right? You're changing speakers in verse 13?

              It's just not a legitimate or rational way to read. You're going through a lot of gyrations and twists to force your view.
              I understand the angel to be speaking on behalf of "The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets" from 22:6 until Jesus begins to speak in 22:16.

              As far as your intimation that the words "Behold, I come quickly" must refer to Jesus, you are aware that it is said of God the Father in Rev. 1:4, "and who is coming," right?

              "John to the seven assemblies that [are] in Asia: Grace to you, and peace, from Him who is, and who was, and who is coming, and from the Seven Spirits that are before His throne" (Rev. 1:4, YLT)

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by forever4truth View Post

                We're not discussing Hebrews 2, we're discussing Rev. 1:17. Do you see the title "the first and the last" being discussed in Heb. 2? No. So, as usual, when you can't defend your position on a particular thread, what do you do, you run to Heb 2, as if that's going to somehow help you.

                Let me know when you're ready to discuss Rev. 1:17 or another directly related passage that uses the same or similar title. Until then, you're just wasting me time.

                snip...[/color]
                Any discussion should be built on the message that Messiah has come in flesh as Kinsman Redeemer. Otherwise it's like flogging a dead horse. There is nothing a carnal man can understand about first and last.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by dannyfortruth View Post

                  Any discussion should be built on the message that Messiah has come in flesh as Kinsman Redeemer. Otherwise it's like flogging a dead horse. There is nothing a carnal man can understand about first and last.
                  So...God said this, and Jesus said it in another context. This means Jesus IS God? Or...the Instrument God made and planned, in ORDER to establish New Covenant sir?

                  Minds which want to MAKE Jesus God will find all KINDS of parallel connections, but the OBVIOUS FACT which they will FOREVER butt their buttheads I mean heads against is...

                  Jesus never SAID outright in 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 plain words, I AM YHWH sir.

                  As a wannabee JEW yew knead to gnaw the TRUE WORD yew yew yew....
                  Shema will change the Christian World.

                  Turn it upside down. To where it once was, the POV of JESUS, his DISCIPLES and his SERVANTS.

                  Know God YHWH Elohim is One. And love Him with all. Mk 12, red letter words.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by dannyfortruth View Post

                    Any discussion should be built on the message that Messiah has come in flesh as Kinsman Redeemer. Otherwise it's like flogging a dead horse. There is nothing a carnal man can understand about first and last.
                    That's your opinion and nothing more. The title of this thread is specifically about is Jesus the first and the last in the same sense as his Father. If you don't like the title of this thread and thus refuse to address it, then at least have the courtesy to go troll somewhere else and not run interference.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by forever4truth View Post

                      That's your opinion and nothing more. The title of this thread is specifically about is Jesus the first and the last in the same sense as his Father. If you don't like the title of this thread and thus refuse to address it, then at least have the courtesy to go troll somewhere else and not run interference.
                      It's not trolling but to show your negativity to clear scriptures which proves you are not right with Elohym. You will go on arguing with people endlessly and they will go on with counter argument and then no one wins.

                      The basic problem with people is that they hold on to their denomination based theologies but not Messiah Himself. Your foundation is wrong and is based only on what other men teach and what hermeneutics they use.

                      it will be a shock to know that if one doesn't get anything from heaven on a personal basis (as all elect get) then that soul is not elected to salvation as being devoid of anointing.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by dannyfortruth View Post

                        It's not trolling but to show your negativity to clear scriptures which proves you are not right with Elohym. You will go on arguing with people endlessly and they will go on with counter argument and then no one wins.

                        The basic problem with people is that they hold on to their denomination based theologies but not Messiah Himself. Your foundation is wrong and is based only on what other men teach and what hermeneutics they use.

                        it will be a shock to know that if one doesn't get anything from heaven on a personal basis (as all elect get) then that soul is not elected to salvation as being devoid of anointing.
                        He don't have no denom, he is in no denom pippy. There IS no denom Forever resides, for a Pentecostal Abrahamic Monotheist.

                        I don't even know if you ARE charismatic in any sense. What do you know about anointing sir?
                        Shema will change the Christian World.

                        Turn it upside down. To where it once was, the POV of JESUS, his DISCIPLES and his SERVANTS.

                        Know God YHWH Elohim is One. And love Him with all. Mk 12, red letter words.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by dannyfortruth View Post

                          It's not trolling but to show your negativity to clear scriptures which proves you are not right with Elohym. You will go on arguing with people endlessly and they will go on with counter argument and then no one wins.

                          The basic problem with people is that they hold on to their denomination based theologies but not Messiah Himself. Your foundation is wrong and is based only on what other men teach and what hermeneutics they use.

                          it will be a shock to know that if one doesn't get anything from heaven on a personal basis (as all elect get) then that soul is not elected to salvation as being devoid of anointing.
                          If you're not willing to address the specific point of the topic, and you've demonstrated you're not, then you are indeed running interference. Once again, if you can't or won't engage with the OP, at least have the courtesy to stop running interference and start your own thread. If not, I'll get a mod involved.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by forever4truth View Post

                            How exactly does John 2:19 contextually relate to Rev. 1:17 or are you running off to another passage to try and demonstrate Jesus' deity?



                            How exactly is that a HUGH STRETCH?



                            Ok, so how exactly is anything I said below a HUGH STRETCH?

                            "For Christ died and rose to life in order to be the Lord of the living and of the dead." (Rom 14:9, GNT)

                            IOW, Jesus' lordship arises out of his death & resurrection. In the same way, I submit that Jesus' title "the first and the last" in Rev. 1:17 & 2:8 arises out of his death & resurrection.

                            Obviously his point cannot be that "I am ETERNALLY God," but "I died, and am alive forevermore.




                            I understand the angel to be speaking on behalf of "The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets" from 22:6 until Jesus begins to speak in 22:16.

                            As far as your intimation that the words "Behold, I come quickly" must refer to Jesus, you are aware that it is said of God the Father in Rev. 1:4, "and who is coming," right?

                            "John to the seven assemblies that [are] in Asia: Grace to you, and peace, from Him who is, and who was, and who is coming, and from the Seven Spirits that are before His throne" (Rev. 1:4, YLT)
                            You said, "you are aware that it is said of God the Father in Rev. 1:4, "and who is coming," right?"

                            Yes indeed. Jesus is God the Father coming to us.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Neal View Post

                              You said, "you are aware that it is said of God the Father in Rev. 1:4, "and who is coming," right?"

                              Yes indeed. Jesus is God the Father coming to us.
                              Jesus is also God in the role of the Son who is coming and it is just the one Lord God!

                              God bless you,

                              SeventhDay

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

                                Jesus is also God in the role of the Son who is coming and it is just the one Lord God!

                                God bless you,

                                SeventhDay
                                The LORD said to my Lord...two L(l)ords and one is God.

                                Shema will change the Christian World.

                                Turn it upside down. To where it once was, the POV of JESUS, his DISCIPLES and his SERVANTS.

                                Know God YHWH Elohim is One. And love Him with all. Mk 12, red letter words.

                                Comment

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