Announcement

Collapse

Message to all users:

https://carm.org/forum-rules

Super Member Subscription
https://carm.org/carm-super-members-banner-ad-signup

As most of you are aware, we had a crash to forums and were down for over two days a while back. We did have to do an upgrade to the vbulletin software to fix the forums and that has created changes, VB no longer provide the hybrid or threaded forums. There are some issues/changes to the forums we are not able to fix or change. Also note the link address change, please let friends and posters know of the changed link to the forums. For now this is the only link available, https://forums.carm.org/vb5/ but if clicking on forum on carm.org homepage it will now send you to this link. (edited to add https: now working.

Again, we are working through some of the posting and viewing issues to learn how to post with the changes, you will have to check and test the different features, icons that have changed. You may also want to go to profile settings,since many of the notifications, information in profile, also to update/edit your avatar by clicking on avatar space, pull down arrow next to login for user settings.

Edit to add "How to read forums, to make it easier."
Pull down arrow next to login name upper right select profile, or user settings when page opens to profile,select link in tab that says Account. Then select/choose options, go down to Conversation Detail Options, Select Display mode Posts, NOT Activity, that selection of Posts will make the pages of discussions go to last post on last page rather than out of order that happens if you choose activity threads. Then be sure to go to bottom and select SAVE Changes in your profile options. You can then follow discussions by going through the pages, to the last page having latest responses. Then click on the other links Privacy, Notifications, to select viewing options,the forums get easier if you open all the tabs or links in your profile, user settings and select options. To join Super Member, pull down arrow next to login name, select User Settings and then click on tab/link at top that says Subscriptions.

Thank you for your patience and God Bless.

Diane S
https://carm.org/forum-rules
See more
See less

Jesus is the Lord.

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Originally posted by forever4truth View Post

    Ezekiel 21:14 in context has nothing to do with John 8:58, nor is this so-called principle ever referred to in the NT, that I'm aware of. If so, where is this principle specifically mentioned?

    While it certainly follows that a basic Bible principle is that truth must be established by more than one witness, this is specifically mentioned a number of times in both the OT and the NT.

    "This will be my third visit to you. "Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses." (2 Cor 13:1, NIV)

    "On the testimony of two or three witnesses a man shall be put to death, but he shall not be executed on the testimony of a lone witness" (Deut 17:6)

    "A lone witness is not sufficient to establish any wrongdoing or sin against a man, regardless of what offense he may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses" (Deut 19:15)

    "But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses." (Matt 18:16)

    I think you get the point, right?


    EDIT insult

    "They did not realise that he was talking to them about the Father. So Jesus resumed, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will realise that I am who I say I am, and that I do nothing on my own authority but speak simply as my Father has taught me. The one who sent me is with me now: the Father has never left me alone for I always do what pleases him.” And even while he said these words, many people believed in him" (John 8:27-29, Phillips)

    1) the Jews refused to believe that Jesus was sent by (not AS) the Father.

    2) as already pointed out, Jesus actually answers the Jews question, "who are you?" by identifying himself as "the Son of man," not as YHWH, the God of Israel (the Father).

    3) if Jesus' intention here were to identify himself as YHWH, the God of Israel, why is he contrasting himself from the Father, as well as emphasizing his subordination to and faithful obedience to Him?

    Indeed, whereas you and other Trins/Oneness see Jesus in John 8:24 & 58 identifying or equating himself as YHWH, the God of Israel, I see him as emphasizing his continuing role as YHWH's faithful and obedient servant, unlike them.
    Jesus submitted to His preincarnate existence who was a Person distinct from Him in that while He was the continuation of the Father (the preincarnate Christ); He was not the Father in the sense that He now existed in a human body and in that existence was no longer Omnipresent throughout eternity except in the Person of His preincarnate form. As the incarnate Father, He submitted Himself to His preincarnate existence in order to set an example for all of us; Jesus in His earthly life showed us what it means to be a citizen of the kingdom of God, by living out perfectly how a citizen ought to behave, which includes subordination to the King of kings and Lord of lords. Therefore, as the Son (who is without a doubt the King of kings and Lord of lords) He submitted to the Father (who is also without a doubt the King of kings and Lord of lords).

    4) when John says, "many people BELIEVED in him," believed what about him? His claim to be YHWH, the God of Israel or YHWH's Messiah?
    Indeed, they believed He was Israel's Messiah. However I believe that what the understood that to mean from Isaiah 9:6, was that He was, as the Messiah, the mighty God (see Psalms 50:1) the Everlasting Father (see Matthew 28:19) and the Prince of Peace, the people were not ignorant of what the prophet Isaiah had said about the Messiah in scripture.

    5) if Jesus' intention was to actually identify himself as YHWH, the God of Israel in John 8:24 & 58, and this was the Jews understanding, as you assert because they wanted to stone him in 8:59, how is it that in John 10:24 they demand he affirm whether or not he is in fact the Messiah?

    The Jewish leaders surrounded him and asked, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” (John 10:24, NET)

    Shouldn't we have expected the Jews to ask him, "If you are YHWH, the God of Israel, tell us plainly"?
    He had already told them plainly, but they didn't believe (John 10:25).

    6) how is it that at his Jewish trial before the Sanhedrin, he is never charged him with claiming to be YHWH, the God of Israel?

    He was, in fact, found guilty of blasphemy for proclaiming it to them the final time (Mark 14:61-64).
    Last edited by Mod8; 09-10-18, 12:06 AM.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by justbyfaith View Post

      EDIT insult
      I've searched a lot of different on-line commentaries on Eze 21:24 and I have yet to find any of them referencing the kind of principle you are suggesting, as when something is asked the third time, it finally registers. I think the best commentary that captures the essence of Ezekiel's point in v. 24 is Ellicott's Commentary for English readers:

      Let the sword be doubled the third time.—The exact translation is here also obscure and difficult, but the meaning is plain that the activity of the sword is to be intensified to the utmost.

      https://www.studylight.org/commentar...zekiel-21.html

      I know when something is repeated in scripture, it done so for the purpose of showing intensity or emphasis. For example the three-fold repeation, "holy, holy, holy," with reference to the Lord God is to emphasize his supreme or utmost holiness. Same with "O earth, earth, earth" in Jer 22:29, KJV, "A ruin, ruin, ruin" in Eze 21:27, ESV, "“O my son Absalom, my son, my son" 2 Sam 18:33, ESV, " ‘This is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord" in Jer 7:4, ESV.

      Obviously, the Jews in John 8 never say to Jesus, "Who are you? Who are you? Who are you?

      snip...



      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by justbyfaith View Post

        EDIT insult[/color="grey"]



        Jesus submitted to His preincarnate existence who was a Person distinct from Him in that while He was the continuation of the Father (the preincarnate Christ); He was not the Father in the sense that He now existed in a human body and in that existence was no longer Omnipresent throughout eternity except in the Person of His preincarnate form. As the incarnate Father, He submitted Himself to His preincarnate existence in order to set an example for all of us; Jesus in His earthly life showed us what it means to be a citizen of the kingdom of God, by living out perfectly how a citizen ought to behave, which includes subordination to the King of kings and Lord of lords. Therefore, as the Son (who is without a doubt the King of kings and Lord of lords) He submitted to the Father (who is also without a doubt the King of kings and Lord of lords).



        Indeed, they believed He was Israel's Messiah. However I believe that what the understood that to mean from Isaiah 9:6, was that He was, as the Messiah, the mighty God (see Psalms 50:1) the Everlasting Father (see Matthew 28:19) and the Prince of Peace, the people were not ignorant of what the prophet Isaiah had said about the Messiah in scripture.


        He had already told them plainly, but they didn't believe (John 10:25).


        No, the text unquestionably shows that he never told them plainly that he was YHWH, the God of Israel. Indeed, if what you're claiming is true (it isn't), it follows that they would have specifically asked him, "
        If you are YHWH, the God of Israel, tell us plainly" or If you are the God of our Fathers, tell us plainly?

        Instead they specifically asked [really demanded] of him, "if you are the Messiah, tell us plainly."

        snip...[/color]

        Comment


        • #64
          I don't recall what it is that I said that would have been considered to be an insult. I generally don't insult people and I think that there must be some mistake. But now my sin is deleted and I have no way of knowing what it was that I even said. I don't know whether I truly insulted anyone or not; because I don't think I did but someone is testifying that i did. It might have helped for me to know what i said that was so insulting so that I could confess my sin and repent of it more easily. As it is, my sin is erased without it ever being confessed; and I am certain that the devil is going to love to bring up my unconfessed sin on my day of judgment. Not to mention I feel that I have been slandered as having leveled an insult at someone when I don't think it is anything that I would normally do. Therefore someone has done me a huge disfavour; may God have mercy on them.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by forever4truth View Post

            No, the text unquestionably shows that he never told them plainly that he was YHWH, the God of Israel. Indeed, if what you're claiming is true (it isn't), it follows that they would have specifically asked him, "[/B]If you are YHWH, the God of Israel, tell us plainly" or If you are the God of our Fathers, tell us plainly?

            Instead they specifically asked [really demanded] of him, "if you are the Messiah, tell us plainly."

            snip...[/color]
            You don't believe that Jesus is the great I AM? The Bible says that you will die in your sins, John 8:24 in light of John 8:58 in light of John 8:59 and John 10:31-33 and Exodus 3:14..

            Comment

            Working...
            X