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The Logos as the Divine Expression

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  • The Logos as the Divine Expression




    Hello all,

    This is my maiden voyage into this forum. The following is from a discussion which began on the JW forum and SeventhDay has agreed that we can discuss it here so I've brought some of our posts from that discussion.

    Here's hoping.....

    Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

    Yes, it is!

    The Logos (Divine Expression) who is God made flesh is one person not three.

    Simple is it not?

    There would not be a begotten Son of God without a Father and there would be no Father without a begotten Son of God and that is what the Logos made flesh entails but it is one person!

    God bless you,

    SeventhDay
    Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

    The Logos made flesh did not become another person therefore God is in roles of himself as the Father and the Son!

    God is not three souls or three selves!

    God bless you,

    SeventhDay
    Originally posted by HollyWood View Post

    I think you must be Oneness in your concept of who God is. Modalism or Sabellianism is the position that God is one person who has taken on three different forms or personas in order to relate to us in different ways at different times.

    Here are just a few of the scriptures that show it's an incorrect belief:

    In Matthew 4:16-17 we see that the Father speaks out of heaven when Jesus is baptized - a clear distinction.

    We also read in John 17:1 that Jesus prayed to the Father, and he carefully made a distinction between the two in saying "Father... glorify your Son, that the Son may glorify You."

    1 John 2:1 tells us that Jesus is our Advocate with the Father.

    It doesn't make sense to equate Jesus and the Father as the same person, as these verses would be rendered nonsense.

    Perhaps the Oneness forum would be a better place to discuss your beliefs?
    Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heartís desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about Godís righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

  • #2
    Originally posted by HollyWood View Post


    Hello all,

    This is my maiden voyage into this forum. The following is from a discussion which began on the JW forum and SeventhDay has agreed that we can discuss it here so I've brought some of our posts from that discussion.

    Here's hoping.....


    How is God three persons when the Lord God says that he is one Lord?

    If Jesus is Lord then he is that one Lord that is God and there can not be any other!

    Can not God be a Father and a Son and be the same person but in relationship roles where each role communicates with each other?

    Jesus can not be God if he is just the Son of God who is a man or it would be a contradiction of terms. Man is not God!

    However, if Jesus is the Father as well as the Son then surely Jesus is God (not the Son of God) who is the Logos made flesh.

    God bless you,

    SeventhDay

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

      How is God three persons when the Lord God says that he is one Lord?

      If Jesus is Lord then he is that one Lord that is God and there can not be any other!

      Can not God be a Father and a Son and be the same person but in relationship roles where each role communicates with each other?

      Jesus can not be God if he is just the Son of God who is a man or it would be a contradiction of terms. Man is not God!

      However, if Jesus is the Father as well as the Son then surely Jesus is God (not the Son of God) who is the Logos made flesh.

      God bless you,

      SeventhDay
      Ah, there you are.

      Remember what I posted from Philip Harner? If John meant what your view is he would have written ho logos en ho theos, "the Word was the God." But he didn't, he wrote I]theos en ho logos[/I], "God was the Word" because "the Word was with God" shows a relationship of persons and "the Word was the God" would contradict that.

      There's also John 17:5 "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed." Jesus is indicating he had a relationship with the Father, meaning they are separate persons, not one person in two roles.

      Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heartís desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about Godís righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by HollyWood View Post

        Ah, there you are.

        Remember what I posted from Philip Harner? If John meant what your view is he would have written ho logos en ho theos, "the Word was the God." But he didn't, he wrote I]theos en ho logos[/I], "God was the Word" because "the Word was with God" shows a relationship of persons and "the Word was the God" would contradict that.

        There's also John 17:5 "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed." Jesus is indicating he had a relationship with the Father, meaning they are separate persons, not one person in two roles.
        Sorry I am not well versed with Greek grammar or English grammar for that matter!

        I believe the Son of God was the Father in the beginning and since Jesus is God then Jesus is the Father!

        Thus, "glorify me with thy own self that I had with you before the world existed" is Jesus as the Son returning back to himself (The Father he is speaking to) yet retaining his role as the Son of God.

        Understand that God as the divine expression does have roles or the Logos was not made flesh!

        God bless you,

        SeventhDay

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

          Sorry I am not well versed with Greek grammar or English grammar for that matter!

          I believe the Son of God was the Father in the beginning and since Jesus is God then Jesus is the Father!

          Thus, "glorify me with thy own self that I had with you before the world existed" is Jesus as the Son returning back to himself (The Father he is speaking to) yet retaining his role as the Son of God.

          Understand that God as the divine expression does have roles or the Logos was not made flesh!

          God bless you,

          SeventhDay
          Evidently Philip Harner IS well versed with Greek grammar, as is Dr. Vickers. Their explanations should help you understand that John wrote in such a way that the Word was with God but was not the same person he was with. John specifically wrote the Greek grammar in such a way as to show that.

          You've been on CARM longer than I have and this information is abundant here.
          Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heartís desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about Godís righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by HollyWood View Post

            Evidently Philip Harner IS well versed with Greek grammar, as is Dr. Vickers. Their explanations should help you understand that John wrote in such a way that the Word was with God but was not the same person he was with. John specifically wrote the Greek grammar in such a way as to show that.

            You've been on CARM longer than I have and this information is abundant here.
            You do understand that God is one Lord therefore there can not be two Lords who are God and there can not be another with God because God says that there is no other with him.

            You have to harmonize John 1:1,2 with the scriptures which is what I am doing.

            God bless you,

            SeventhDay

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

              You do understand that God is one Lord therefore there can not be two Lords who are God and there can not be another with God because God says that there is no other with him.

              You have to harmonize John 1:1,2 with the scriptures which is what I am doing.

              God bless you,

              SeventhDay
              If you're referring to Deuteronomy 6:4. have you read what Matt Slick has posted about that? Does Deuteronomy 6:4, the Shema, disprove the Trinity?

              by Matt Slick

              No, Deuteronomy 6:4, also known as the Shema, does not disprove the Trinity. The Trinity is the teaching that in the one God there are three distinct, simultaneous, co-eternal, and co-powerful persons known as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Deuteronomy 6:4 says that God is one LORD. The word "LORD" in Hebrew it is YHWH (Yahweh, or Jehovah). The verse is saying that YHWH alone is God and is teaching monotheism. The verse is not about God being the Trinity, though He is. It's about only being one God. The Shema is a statement about monotheism and the Trinity monotheistic. Also, the word for "one" in Deut. 6:4 is "echad," which often used for describing a composite unity such as one cluster of grapes.

              However, some will respond by saying God is one, not three. But the verse does not say that God is "not three." It says God is one. Okay, one what? One God! This is what Duet. 6:4 says, and the Trinity doctrine agrees, there is one God.

              https://carm.org/questions/about-god...sprove-trinity
              Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heartís desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about Godís righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

              Comment


              • #8
                The way I see it Jesus is a ventriloquist....and has the ability to throw His voice so it sounds like it's coming from heaven during His baptism. I still haven't figured out how He made the dove appear. I think Jesus had it tucked up His sleeve.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by HollyWood View Post

                  If you're referring to Deuteronomy 6:4. have you read what Matt Slick has posted about that? Does Deuteronomy 6:4, the Shema, disprove the Trinity?

                  by Matt Slick

                  No, Deuteronomy 6:4, also known as the Shema, does not disprove the Trinity. The Trinity is the teaching that in the one God there are three distinct, simultaneous, co-eternal, and co-powerful persons known as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Deuteronomy 6:4 says that God is one LORD. The word "LORD" in Hebrew it is YHWH (Yahweh, or Jehovah). The verse is saying that YHWH alone is God and is teaching monotheism. The verse is not about God being the Trinity, though He is. It's about only being one God. The Shema is a statement about monotheism and the Trinity monotheistic. Also, the word for "one" in Deut. 6:4 is "echad," which often used for describing a composite unity such as one cluster of grapes.

                  However, some will respond by saying God is one, not three. But the verse does not say that God is "not three." It says God is one. Okay, one what? One God! This is what Duet. 6:4 says, and the Trinity doctrine agrees, there is one God.

                  https://carm.org/questions/about-god...sprove-trinity
                  However, the scriptures do not teach three persons in God as a compound unity of persons!

                  Jesus did not teach that he was a second person of a compound unity but he did say that the Father and he is one and that he was in the Father and the Father was in the Son.

                  There is not a second God that is the Logos that was made flesh and another God that is not the Logos.

                  The trinity teaching is truly not scriptural!

                  God states that there is no other beside him!

                  God bless you,

                  SeventhDay

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

                    However, the scriptures do not teach three persons in God as a compound unity of persons!

                    Jesus did not teach that he was a second person of a compound unity but he did say that the Father and he is one and that he was in the Father and the Father was in the Son.

                    There is not a second God that is the Logos that was made flesh and another God that is not the Logos.

                    The trinity teaching is truly not scriptural!

                    God states that there is no other beside him!

                    God bless you,

                    SeventhDay
                    You're mis-stating what the trinity teaching is, whether on purpose or unknowingly. We don't believe in three Gods, as you are mis-stating. We believe in three persons who are the one God. Now, more than one person can be one of something, for instance, Adam and Eve became one flesh, though there are many who are disciples of Christ, they are said to be one.
                    Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heartís desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about Godís righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by HollyWood View Post

                      You're mis-stating what the trinity teaching is, whether on purpose or unknowingly. We don't believe in three Gods, as you are mis-stating. We believe in three persons who are the one God. Now, more than one person can be one of something, for instance, Adam and Eve became one flesh, though there are many who are disciples of Christ, they are said to be one.
                      Unified persons is one thing but God is one person! If God was three persons he would be three Lords but the Lord God is one Lord!

                      We can be unified with Jesus in the Christ body but there is only one Christ who is God not three!

                      Jesus is the one Lord God just as there is one Spirit, one faith, one baptism, and one Father but there is only one Lord God not a God who consists of three person who are each called God with their own mind and will. That is not scriptural!

                      Jesus is God the Father not God the Son but Jesus is the Son of God who is a man.

                      There is no Son of God who is the Logos made flesh and is a God-man or demi-God!

                      There is no hypostatic union which is just a man made invention!

                      The trinity doctrine is full of holes and very contradictory!


                      God bless you,

                      SeventhDay

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

                        Unified persons is one thing but God is one person! If God was three persons he would be three Lords but the Lord God is one Lord!

                        We can be unified with Jesus in the Christ body but there is only one Christ who is God not three!

                        Jesus is the one Lord God just as there is one Spirit, one faith, one baptism, and one Father but there is only one Lord God not a God who consists of three person who are each called God with their own mind and will. That is not scriptural!

                        Jesus is God the Father not God the Son but Jesus is the Son of God who is a man.

                        There is no Son of God who is the Logos made flesh and is a God-man or demi-God!

                        There is no hypostatic union which is just a man made invention!

                        The trinity doctrine is full of holes and very contradictory!


                        God bless you,

                        SeventhDay
                        A "divine expression" would not say "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed." But a person who existed with the Father before anything was created, would.

                        And though you prefer to ignore the Greek grammar John was using, it is further proof that what he wrote does not support your belief. That in itself should cause you some concern and spur you to want to learn more.
                        Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heartís desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about Godís righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by HollyWood View Post

                          A "divine expression" would not say "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed." But a person who existed with the Father before anything was created, would.

                          And though you prefer to ignore the Greek grammar John was using, it is further proof that what he wrote does not support your belief. That in itself should cause you some concern and spur you to want to learn more.
                          There is much to consider when the Logos was made flesh on what all that entails and the Son of God and the Father are one person because God as the divine expression was made flesh.

                          John 1:1 states that the Logos was God not that the Son of God was the Logos.

                          We are introduced in John 1:14 when the Logos was made flesh to the only begotten Son and the Father!

                          There are two figures of speech describing the Logos made flesh In John 1:14,18. One is a simile and one is a metaphor.

                          Let us examine them and what it entails.

                          God bless you,

                          SeventhDay

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by HollyWood View Post

                            Ah, there you are.

                            Remember what I posted from Philip Harner? If John meant what your view is he would have written ho logos en ho theos, "the Word was the God." But he didn't, he wrote I]theos en ho logos[/I], "God was the Word" because "the Word was with God" shows a relationship of persons and "the Word was the God" would contradict that.

                            There's also John 17:5 "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed." Jesus is indicating he had a relationship with the Father, meaning they are separate persons, not one person in two roles.
                            John 1:1 is misunderstood by the majority.

                            John has written from Hebraic perspective.

                            The Word is relative to the creative order.

                            I will give example - it's letters that makes the word and the words make phrases and the phrases make sentences and the sentences make a language. It's orderly.

                            The same with Hebrew 'Ha Dabar'.

                            Dabar has multiple meanings like speaking, plague, etc. But that's not what John has in mind.

                            Dabar relates to Elohym because He is Elohym of the creative order. In Hebrew, the Word has substance of Elohym and that's why is LIVING/and has life.

                            John 1:1 doesn't speak of two persons at all. The Word in The BEGINNING being with Elohym speaks of two realms - transcendence and immanace.

                            Elohym is transcendent while His substance The Dabar is in immanent creation by Whom all things exist.

                            When the ages were framed by Dabar Yahuah, it pertained to creation, redemption, His coming into flesh, His Resurrection, end of the age. That's why He is called Alaph and Tav, The Beginning and The End.

                            Everything related to immanent creation has that ORDER in the spiritual language that can only be understood by His elect and for others it's total chaos. The gift of tongues in Acts 2 was wonderful acts of Elohym and yet it was mocking for others.

                            The Word is Elohym in the order of creation for by Him all things were created and by Him all things consist.

                            The Word is singular and went forth in one action - that brought about everything in order from the beginning till the end. Because we are in time - we hear many words (speakings) of Elohym relative to our age within the framework of ages.

                            The doctrine of The Father and The Son is fought here under false premise. This doctrine Scripturally relates only to Elohym and His Assembly. It has nothing to do with either trinitarianism nor Unitarianism.

                            Elohym as The Father is over His Assembly abd The Son is representation of The Assembly:


                            Exo 4:22 And you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus said YHUH “Yisra’ĕl is My son, My first-born,

                            Hos 11:1 When Yisra’ĕl was a child, I loved him, and out of Mitsrayim I called My son.


                            Mat 2: 14 And rising up, he took the Child and His mother by night and departed for Mitsrayim,

                            15 and remained there until the death of Herodes, to fill what was spoken by יהוה through the prophet, saying, “Out of Mitsrayim I have called My Son.”

                            So, It's The Son who represented Israel as the firstborn.


                            Heb 3:5 And Mosheh indeed was trustworthy in all His house as a servant, for a witness of what would be spoken later,

                            6 but Messiah as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the boldness and the boasting of the expectation firm to the end.

                            The Father and The Son aren't two persons of a Trinity but are One - The WORD of John 1:1 - of creative order.
                            Last edited by dannyfortruth; 10-09-18, 12:17 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

                              There is much to consider when the Logos was made flesh on what all that entails and the Son of God and the Father are one person because God as the divine expression was made flesh.

                              John 1:1 states that the Logos was God not that the Son of God was the Logos.

                              We are introduced in John 1:14 when the Logos was made flesh to the only begotten Son and the Father!

                              There are two figures of speech describing the Logos made flesh In John 1:14,18. One is a simile and one is a metaphor.

                              Let us examine them and what it entails.

                              God bless you,

                              SeventhDay
                              Would you agree that your belief is Biblical Unitarianism, i.e. that Jesus did not exist prior to being born of Mary except as the plan, the purpose and the wisdom of God?


                              Holly
                              Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heartís desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about Godís righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

                              Comment

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