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The Logos as the Divine Expression

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  • HollyWood
    started a topic The Logos as the Divine Expression

    The Logos as the Divine Expression




    Hello all,

    This is my maiden voyage into this forum. The following is from a discussion which began on the JW forum and SeventhDay has agreed that we can discuss it here so I've brought some of our posts from that discussion.

    Here's hoping.....

    Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

    Yes, it is!

    The Logos (Divine Expression) who is God made flesh is one person not three.

    Simple is it not?

    There would not be a begotten Son of God without a Father and there would be no Father without a begotten Son of God and that is what the Logos made flesh entails but it is one person!

    God bless you,

    SeventhDay
    Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

    The Logos made flesh did not become another person therefore God is in roles of himself as the Father and the Son!

    God is not three souls or three selves!

    God bless you,

    SeventhDay
    Originally posted by HollyWood View Post

    I think you must be Oneness in your concept of who God is. Modalism or Sabellianism is the position that God is one person who has taken on three different forms or personas in order to relate to us in different ways at different times.

    Here are just a few of the scriptures that show it's an incorrect belief:

    In Matthew 4:16-17 we see that the Father speaks out of heaven when Jesus is baptized - a clear distinction.

    We also read in John 17:1 that Jesus prayed to the Father, and he carefully made a distinction between the two in saying "Father... glorify your Son, that the Son may glorify You."

    1 John 2:1 tells us that Jesus is our Advocate with the Father.

    It doesn't make sense to equate Jesus and the Father as the same person, as these verses would be rendered nonsense.

    Perhaps the Oneness forum would be a better place to discuss your beliefs?

  • SeventhDay
    replied
    Originally posted by TibiasDad View Post

    Again, you haven't dealt with the evidence, nor explained the obvious scriptural statements that place the Father and Son in the same circumstance acting independently of one another. God becoming flesh is much easier, or should I say more simply, explained and understood as two distinct individuals, but you refuse to acknowledge the simple facts of reality, such as Jesus praying to the Father who was in heaven. If there is but one actual person, then Jesus is lying by saying the the Father is in heaven, and he is merely talking to himself, asking "not my will but mine be done"; is is a preposterous and laughable thing to believe such a thing.


    Doug
    Can not discuss this with you on this forum.

    God bless you,

    SeventhDay

    Leave a comment:


  • TibiasDad
    replied
    Originally posted by HollyWood View Post

    Doug, I had to move this discussion to the Trinity forum because SeventhDay said he can't post on this forum. It has the same thread title on the Trinity forum.


    Holly
    Okay...see you there!

    Doug

    Leave a comment:


  • HollyWood
    replied
    Originally posted by TibiasDad View Post

    Again, you haven't dealt with the evidence, nor explained the obvious scriptural statements that place the Father and Son in the same circumstance acting independently of one another. God becoming flesh is much easier, or should I say more simply, explained and understood as two distinct individuals, but you refuse to acknowledge the simple facts of reality, such as Jesus praying to the Father who was in heaven. If there is but one actual person, then Jesus is lying by saying the the Father is in heaven, and he is merely talking to himself, asking "not my will but mine be done"; is is a preposterous and laughable thing to believe such a thing.


    Doug
    Doug, I had to move this discussion to the Trinity forum because SeventhDay said he can't post on this forum. It has the same thread title on the Trinity forum.


    Holly

    Leave a comment:


  • TibiasDad
    replied
    Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

    God has roles because the Logos was made flesh for the benefit of humanity to be part of the God family as spiritual sons and daughters with Jesus being "the first born from the dead." God did not become another person but God took on the form of a human servant thus God was in two roles of himself.

    Simple to understand is it not?

    God bless you,

    SeventhDay
    Again, you haven't dealt with the evidence, nor explained the obvious scriptural statements that place the Father and Son in the same circumstance acting independently of one another. God becoming flesh is much easier, or should I say more simply, explained and understood as two distinct individuals, but you refuse to acknowledge the simple facts of reality, such as Jesus praying to the Father who was in heaven. If there is but one actual person, then Jesus is lying by saying the the Father is in heaven, and he is merely talking to himself, asking "not my will but mine be done"; is is a preposterous and laughable thing to believe such a thing.


    Doug

    Leave a comment:


  • SeventhDay
    replied
    Originally posted by TibiasDad View Post

    You present no scripture, or even lexical evidence in support of your response, and you do not even try to refute or falsify the biblical and lexical evidence that I give for my reasoning. All three persons of the Trinity are called God in scripture. And again, one Lord doesn’t mean only one person is Lord. And God doesn’t talk to himself as different character roles. That is not even close to common sense, much less a biblical teaching.


    Doug
    God has roles because the Logos was made flesh for the benefit of humanity to be part of the God family as spiritual sons and daughters with Jesus being "the first born from the dead." God did not become another person but God took on the form of a human servant thus God was in two roles of himself.

    Simple to understand is it not?

    God bless you,

    SeventhDay

    Leave a comment:


  • TibiasDad
    replied
    Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

    Two roles of God are very close together!

    God is one Lord means exactly what it says without putting a spin on it.

    No where in the scriptures is God presented as three selves which is a trinity invention!

    God bless you,

    SeventhDay
    You present no scripture, or even lexical evidence in support of your response, and you do not even try to refute or falsify the biblical and lexical evidence that I give for my reasoning. All three persons of the Trinity are called God in scripture. And again, one Lord doesn’t mean only one person is Lord. And God doesn’t talk to himself as different character roles. That is not even close to common sense, much less a biblical teaching.


    Doug

    Leave a comment:


  • SeventhDay
    replied
    Originally posted by TibiasDad View Post

    Then how can you argue your position if you can properly understand either language?



    But it is a belief in unicorns, for there is no credible evidence to support your belief; just a twisted, narrow, definition of a single word (one) about the most complex and indescribable being in existence, namely God. If God was trying to say that he was the only person who is God, he would have said I am the only one who is God, but he didn't, he said "the Lord your God is one", not the only person, but one in unity of essence. It is not one is God, but God is one.






    Here is the grammar issue again. "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (John 17:5) παρὰ σεαυτῷ , with you, or in your presence, corresponds to the πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, with God, of John 1:1. But the John 17:5 is even stronger in its sense of spacial proximity one one person to another. It can mean nothing else.


    Doug
    Two roles of God are very close together!

    God is one Lord means exactly what it says without putting a spin on it.

    No where in the scriptures is God presented as three selves which is a trinity invention!

    God bless you,

    SeventhDay

    Leave a comment:


  • TibiasDad
    replied
    Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

    Sorry I am not well versed with Greek grammar or English grammar for that matter!
    Then how can you argue your position if you can properly understand either language?

    I believe the Son of God was the Father in the beginning and since Jesus is God then Jesus is the Father!
    But it is a belief in unicorns, for there is no credible evidence to support your belief; just a twisted, narrow, definition of a single word (one) about the most complex and indescribable being in existence, namely God. If God was trying to say that he was the only person who is God, he would have said I am the only one who is God, but he didn't, he said "the Lord your God is one", not the only person, but one in unity of essence. It is not one is God, but God is one.



    Thus, "glorify me with thy own self that I had with you before the world existed" is Jesus as the Son returning back to himself (The Father he is speaking to) yet retaining his role as the Son of God.

    Understand that God as the divine expression does have roles or the Logos was not made flesh!

    God bless you,

    SeventhDay .

    Here is the grammar issue again. "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (John 17:5) παρὰ σεαυτῷ , with you, or in your presence, corresponds to the πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, with God, of John 1:1. But the John 17:5 is even stronger in its sense of spacial proximity one one person to another. It can mean nothing else.


    Doug

    Leave a comment:


  • TibiasDad
    replied
    Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

    It indicates to me that Jesus is the Father that he is praying too! The glory he had with the Father was the Father himself!

    Jesus has to be the Father because the Son of God is not immortal but died but he did rise again!




    Only God is King of Kings and that is Jesus!

    Only God is Lord of Lords and that is Jesus!

    Only God has immortality and that is Jesus!

    Only God dwells in the light and that is Jesus.

    Thus, Jesus is not only the Son of God who is not immortal but the Father that is immortal!



    Jesus is the one body that is Christ and is God!

    Jesus is the one Spirit that is God!

    Jesus is the one that we put our faith in because Jesus is God who called us to himself!

    Jesus is the one whose name we are baptized in because Jesus is God!

    Jesus is the only one God!

    Jesus is the Father and is God!

    Jesus is the only one that is above all because Jesus is God!

    It is Jesus that is through all because Jesus is God!

    It is Jesus that is dwelling in us as the Spirit of Christ because Jesus is God!



    If we acknowledge the Son we have the Father because Jesus is God!



    Jesus Christ has come in the flesh and appeared to humanity because Jesus is God.

    Not only has Jesus appeared to us in the flesh he also spiritually indwells us because the Spirit of Christ is God!

    God bless you,

    SeventhDay
    You still have one character feigning to communicate with a presumably distinct personality, but is really just sitting by himself having a conversation with himself, but maybe changing his voice to be one character to talk to the other one, neither of which are really real, but just roles for the sake of the narrative that he wants to create.

    This would also imply that Jesus was a ventriloquist at his baptism and had a special effects team for the Holy Spirit descending like a dove. And it makes the John 17:5 and John 1:1b, the pros statements (with God, and with you), if not meaningless, deceptive description of the reality. It also implies Jesus being deceptive when telling the disciples to pray to the Father in heaven, while Jesus is still on earth. Jesus also always spoke of the Father as being presently in heaven while he and the disciples were on earth.

    Absolutely nothing in scripture says that God is one person, but rather that he exists as a unified entity, which in no way disqualifies a triune unity. All of scripture from Genesis to Revelation depicts the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit as distinct and separate entities.


    Doug

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  • SeventhDay
    replied
    Originally posted by HollyWood View Post

    Done.
    Great!

    I like your discussions!

    God bless you,

    SeventhDay

    Leave a comment:


  • HollyWood
    replied
    Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

    Yes, that is fine.

    God bless you,

    SeventhDay
    Done.

    Leave a comment:


  • SeventhDay
    replied
    Originally posted by HollyWood View Post

    I'm thinking maybe the Trinity forum would be better. Can we discuss your view there?


    Holly
    Yes, that is fine.

    God bless you,

    SeventhDay

    Leave a comment:


  • HollyWood
    replied
    Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

    Yes, that will do fine!

    Thanks!

    God bless you,

    SeventhDay
    I'm thinking maybe the Trinity forum would be better. Can we discuss your view there?


    Holly

    Leave a comment:


  • SeventhDay
    replied
    Originally posted by HollyWood View Post

    I don't know which forum you mean. Is it the Theology Questions forum?


    Holly
    Yes, that will do fine!

    Thanks!

    God bless you,

    SeventhDay

    Leave a comment:

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