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The verse(s) in the Bible that oneness and trins cannot confront literally.

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  • Originally posted by Truther View Post
    You didn't specify Jesus' two wills. You have been constantly referring to Jesus' human will and God the Father's divine will. Yes, Jesus shares this will, being that he is also divine, but that is utterly besides the point. I am not a mind reader, and why must I elaborate about something you refuse to interact with?
    There are no opposing wills in this passage. You have one will submitting to another will. In other words, two wills with different perspectives where one submits to the other. Nothing here even hints at opposing wills. Perhaps, you should use other words to convey what you are getting at.
    There are no contrary wills here. You are projecting things on the passage that are simply not warranted. Therefore, I prefer neither because I reject your asserted premise, opposed or contrary wills.
    42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
    Wrong, there are 2 opposing wills here.
    Wrong, there are not 2 opposing wills here.

    Asserting position can sure be fun.


    One wanted the cup removed but the other one wanted it to stay.
    And? Every human will has conflicting desires. That is totally irrelevant. That Jesus submitted his human will proves that there is nothing opposing.

    One says, not my will but thine be done.
    This denotes separate and distinct differences in thinking.
    Yes, but it does not denote opposing or contrary wills.

    This blows the trin idea sky high(3 persons in one thought process).
    Not even close. This simply expresses how desperate you are to justify anything.

    Person #2 thinks different than person #1.
    With respect to his human will as one would expect. And???????????? None of this can even in principle be relevant to your assertion of opposing wills.

    This is the trin God, conflicted in thought, arguing amongst itself.
    Yikes!
    This is Truther fundamentally misunderstanding Trinitarianism while being too stubborn to accept correction.

    God Bless

    Comment


    • Originally posted by DoctrinesofGraceBapt View Post

      Wrong, there are not 2 opposing wills here.

      Asserting position can sure be fun.




      And? Every human will has conflicting desires. That is totally irrelevant. That Jesus submitted his human will proves that there is nothing opposing.



      Yes, but it does not denote opposing or contrary wills.



      Not even close. This simply expresses how desperate you are to justify anything.



      With respect to his human will as one would expect. And???????????? None of this can even in principle be relevant to your assertion of opposing wills.



      This is Truther fundamentally misunderstanding Trinitarianism while being too stubborn to accept correction.

      God Bless
      Humans do not have opposing wills.

      We have a will and God has a will.

      God's will must trump man's will.

      You should know that.

      What man has is a conscience, God using it to change man's will.

      Trins think Jesus really meant......"not my will, but my will be done", when Jesus said "not mine, but thine.....".

      The fact is, his God was dealing with him by his conscience.

      If we were born with conflicting wills, we were born completely nuts.

      Give God the credit and admit that we are sinners by our will, okay?

      Don't act like there is a Godly side of your will, okay?

      God did it all, right?

      Read this.....



      9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

      10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

      11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

      12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

      13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

      14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

      15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

      16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

      17 And the way of peace have they not known:

      18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.


      Did God implant His will in us?

      Yep, and Jesus understood that too.

      This is why Jesus was full of the Holy Ghost and led of the Holy Ghost.

      The 2 wills that you see Jesus speaking of is the will of the Holy Ghost influencing his will to continue to the cross, when Jesus did not want to do it.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Truther View Post
        I have sought my Christian friends in both camps to give me a simple explanation of the following verses.

        They all disappoint me with their answers.

        Jesus, from his first mention of having a God in the O.T.(Psalm 22 etc.), to Rev 3:12, is attacked by Christians(inadvertently), and misrepresented continuously.

        Why do we do this to him?

        Why don't we let Jesus have his God?

        Can't Jesus have his God and still be God to us?

        You bet he can....it is called the Col 2:9 effect of the last Adam(Jesus Christ), after he resurrected.

        Fact is, Jesus Christ was made a quickening spirit after he was resurrected by his God, then fully indwelled of every bit of what his God consists of.

        This caused Jesus Christ to become omnipresent and the very temple of his God.

        Now his God does everything from within His quickening spirit son.

        His God is not a fraction of an inch outside him, but all of his God is inside him.

        Your comments or questions are welcome here.
        You seemed to have answered your own question. Is there a question you are wanting to ask that you actually want someone to answer?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by DoctrinesofGraceBapt View Post

          Wrong, there are not 2 opposing wills here.

          Asserting position can sure be fun.




          And? Every human will has conflicting desires. That is totally irrelevant. That Jesus submitted his human will proves that there is nothing opposing.



          Yes, but it does not denote opposing or contrary wills.



          Not even close. This simply expresses how desperate you are to justify anything.



          With respect to his human will as one would expect. And???????????? None of this can even in principle be relevant to your assertion of opposing wills.



          This is Truther fundamentally misunderstanding Trinitarianism while being too stubborn to accept correction.

          God Bless
          While the wills are not opposing there is more than one will. Not "my will", but "thy will" be done. Are there multiple wills within the eternal essence of God? In other words, does each eternal person have their own will in harmony with the others? If yes, how is this not tritheism? Or, is the "my will" Jesus speaks of based on the incarnation and the fact that he exists as a genuine man?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Truther View Post
            Wrong, there are not 2 opposing wills here.
            Asserting position can sure be fun.
            And? Every human will has conflicting desires. That is totally irrelevant. That Jesus submitted his human will proves that there is nothing opposing.
            Yes, but it does not denote opposing or contrary wills.
            Not even close. This simply expresses how desperate you are to justify anything.
            With respect to his human will as one would expect. And???????????? None of this can even in principle be relevant to your assertion of opposing wills.
            This is Truther fundamentally misunderstanding Trinitarianism while being too stubborn to accept correction.
            Humans do not have opposing wills.
            We have a will and God has a will.
            God's will must trump man's will.
            You should know that.
            Nothing I said denies such, and you should know that. Not to mention the fact that you have no warrant for saying Jesus' human will was opposing the divine will.

            What man has is a conscience, God using it to change man's will.
            Trins think Jesus really meant......"not my will, but my will be done", when Jesus said "not mine, but thine.....".
            Not even close. You should really stop making baseless assertions.

            The fact is, his God was dealing with him by his conscience.
            Another vacuous assertion.

            If we were born with conflicting wills, we were born completely nuts.
            Give God the credit and admit that we are sinners by our will, okay?
            Nothing I've said even comes close to denying that we are sinners by our wills. Stop confusing yourself.

            Don't act like there is a Godly side of your will, okay?
            I don't.

            God did it all, right?
            Read this.....

            9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
            10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
            11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
            12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
            13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
            14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
            15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
            16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
            17 And the way of peace have they not known:
            18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

            Did God implant His will in us?
            Yep, and Jesus understood that too.
            More stuff that is 100% irrelevant to our dispute.

            This is why Jesus was full of the Holy Ghost and led of the Holy Ghost.
            I never denied this.

            The 2 wills that you see Jesus speaking of is the will of the Holy Ghost influencing his will to continue to the cross, when Jesus did not want to do it.
            And??????? Again, nothing follows from your assertions. It likely because of your confusion.

            God Bless

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Neal View Post
              Wrong, there are not 2 opposing wills here.
              Asserting position can sure be fun.
              And? Every human will has conflicting desires. That is totally irrelevant. That Jesus submitted his human will proves that there is nothing opposing.
              Yes, but it does not denote opposing or contrary wills.
              Not even close. This simply expresses how desperate you are to justify anything.
              With respect to his human will as one would expect. And???????????? None of this can even in principle be relevant to your assertion of opposing wills.
              This is Truther fundamentally misunderstanding Trinitarianism while being too stubborn to accept correction.
              While the wills are not opposing there is more than one will. Not "my will", but "thy will" be done. Are there multiple wills within the eternal essence of God? In other words, does each eternal person have their own will in harmony with the others?
              No.

              If yes, how is this not tritheism?
              You would be correct in this assessment. That's why Trinitarians have always rejected multiple wills within the eternal essence of God.

              Or, is the "my will" Jesus speaks of based on the incarnation and the fact that he exists as a genuine man?
              This is the Trinitarian position.

              God Bless

              Comment


              • Originally posted by DoctrinesofGraceBapt View Post

                Nothing I said denies such, and you should know that. Not to mention the fact that you have no warrant for saying Jesus' human will was opposing the divine will.



                Not even close. You should really stop making baseless assertions.



                Another vacuous assertion.



                Nothing I've said even comes close to denying that we are sinners by our wills. Stop confusing yourself.



                I don't.



                More stuff that is 100% irrelevant to our dispute.



                I never denied this.



                And??????? Again, nothing follows from your assertions. It likely because of your confusion.

                God Bless
                Wrong. Jesus' will was NOT in sync with God's will.

                God's will was for him to drink from the cup.

                Jesus resisted, sweating as it were great drops of blood.

                This was God forcing His will on a man.

                The man finally submitted to God's will, saying "not my will but thine be done".

                You have God staging His flesh as a prop like a movie actor.

                You have God creating fake news, as if there was an independent/individual man after all, but not really.

                I know what incarnationists think....


                "Please, let this cup pass from my Spirit side, nevertheless...."

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Apostolic1ness View Post

                  You seemed to have answered your own question. Is there a question you are wanting to ask that you actually want someone to answer?
                  Sure, let's start with this very simple question.....

                  Do you think per Col 2:9, that every bit of what God consists of is inside the resurrected body of Jesus or not?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Truther View Post
                    Nothing I said denies such, and you should know that. Not to mention the fact that you have no warrant for saying Jesus' human will was opposing the divine will.
                    Not even close. You should really stop making baseless assertions.
                    Another vacuous assertion.
                    Nothing I've said even comes close to denying that we are sinners by our wills. Stop confusing yourself.
                    I don't.
                    More stuff that is 100% irrelevant to our dispute.
                    I never denied this.
                    And??????? Again, nothing follows from your assertions. It likely because of your confusion.
                    Wrong. Jesus' will was NOT in sync with God's will.
                    God's will was for him to drink from the cup.
                    Jesus resisted, sweating as it were great drops of blood.
                    This was God forcing His will on a man.
                    The man finally submitted to God's will, saying "not my will but thine be done".
                    Interesting, You have a sinful Jesus, not submissive, a God who controls men as puppets, and I'm the one whose theology is wrong? You are very, very confused.

                    You have God staging His flesh as a prop like a movie actor.
                    You have God creating fake news, as if there was an independent/individual man after all, but not really.
                    What on earth are you talking about? Have you ever listened to a Trinitarian? Or, has your arrogance always blinded you to what we are saying?

                    I know what incarnationists think....
                    ROFL!!! You don't have a clue.

                    "Please, let this cup pass from my Spirit side, nevertheless...."
                    Wrong again. Are you trying to earn a most ignorant award?

                    God Bless

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DoctrinesofGraceBapt View Post

                      Interesting, You have a sinful Jesus, not submissive, a God who controls men as puppets, and I'm the one whose theology is wrong? You are very, very confused.



                      What on earth are you talking about? Have you ever listened to a Trinitarian? Or, has your arrogance always blinded you to what we are saying?



                      ROFL!!! You don't have a clue.



                      Wrong again. Are you trying to earn a most ignorant award?

                      God Bless
                      Struggling with Godís will is a sin?

                      I always thought the act of disobedience was?

                      Cmon, you know what happened in the garden.

                      Hopefully you donít think this was a staged struggle with Godís will, causing profuse sweating and sleeplessness by God Himself?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Truther View Post
                        Interesting, You have a sinful Jesus, not submissive, a God who controls men as puppets, and I'm the one whose theology is wrong? You are very, very confused.
                        What on earth are you talking about? Have you ever listened to a Trinitarian? Or, has your arrogance always blinded you to what we are saying?
                        ROFL!!! You don't have a clue.
                        Wrong again. Are you trying to earn a most ignorant award?
                        Struggling with God’s will is a sin?
                        We were not talking about struggling. You said "Jesus resisted". That's obviously a sin: "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." Why do you believe Jesus was a sinner? How can he be our savior when he is a sinner like us?

                        I always thought the act of disobedience was?
                        As if there are not sins of the heart. What is the Greatest commandment? Love the Lord your God will all your heart. Tell me. What act corresponds to loving God or not loving God. Sin isn't only about what you do. It has to do with your thought process too.

                        Cmon, you know what happened in the garden.
                        And????????? You should really stop distracting yourself with the irrelevant.

                        Hopefully you don’t think this was a staged struggle with God’s will, causing profuse sweating and sleeplessness by God Himself?
                        Hopefully you learn to stop asserting the absurd and jumping to unfounded conclusions. BTW, I call you ignorant because you are ignorant. You don't know what you talking about when it comes to Trinitarianism. I'm not being mean. I'm describing reality. Perhaps you should take this opportunity to contemplate your position.

                        God Bless

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by DoctrinesofGraceBapt View Post

                          We were not talking about struggling. You said "Jesus resisted". That's obviously a sin: "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." Why do you believe Jesus was a sinner? How can he be our savior when he is a sinner like us?



                          As if there are not sins of the heart. What is the Greatest commandment? Love the Lord your God will all your heart. Tell me. What act corresponds to loving God or not loving God. Sin isn't only about what you do. It has to do with your thought process too.



                          And????????? You should really stop distracting yourself with the irrelevant.



                          Hopefully you learn to stop asserting the absurd and jumping to unfounded conclusions. BTW, I call you ignorant because you are ignorant. You don't know what you talking about when it comes to Trinitarianism. I'm not being mean. I'm describing reality. Perhaps you should take this opportunity to contemplate your position.

                          God Bless
                          Are you saying Jesus really meant this?....


                          ”ĒNot thy will but ours be done”Ē, since there was only one unified will involved?



                          Also, asking God to let the cup pass from him that was God’s will to partake of, was not pushback by Jesus, rather he was happily willing to partake of it?
                          Last edited by Truther; 05-15-19, 10:18 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Truther View Post

                            Sure, let's start with this very simple question.....

                            Do you think per Col 2:9, that every bit of what God consists of is inside the resurrected body of Jesus or not?
                            yes.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Apostolic1ness View Post

                              yes.
                              Okay, then you think like I do.

                              Did you know that neither oneness or trin scholars believe that?

                              Did you know they think Jesus’ body, right now, is only the size of a typical human being?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Truther View Post
                                We were not talking about struggling. You said "Jesus resisted". That's obviously a sin: "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." Why do you believe Jesus was a sinner? How can he be our savior when he is a sinner like us?
                                As if there are not sins of the heart. What is the Greatest commandment? Love the Lord your God will all your heart. Tell me. What act corresponds to loving God or not loving God. Sin isn't only about what you do. It has to do with your thought process too.
                                And????????? You should really stop distracting yourself with the irrelevant.
                                Hopefully you learn to stop asserting the absurd and jumping to unfounded conclusions. BTW, I call you ignorant because you are ignorant. You don't know what you talking about when it comes to Trinitarianism. I'm not being mean. I'm describing reality. Perhaps you should take this opportunity to contemplate your position.
                                Are you saying Jesus really meant this?....
                                "Not thy will but ours be done"”, since there was only one unified will involved?
                                Nope. But, you already knew that. You can't make a meaningful comments so you jump to such. Nice job changing the topic back to what was already answered when you got embarrassed for being schooled biblically.

                                Also, asking God to let the cup pass from him that was God's will to partake of, was not pushback by Jesus, rather he was happily willing to partake of it?
                                If you want meaningful conversations, you could try using English. English has certain rules of grammar. You might want to try following them.

                                God Bless

                                Comment

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