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The verse(s) in the Bible that oneness and trins cannot confront literally.

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  • Originally posted by Truther View Post
    When in doubt, you change the verse under discussion. Did it help? Not at all. You simply quoted a verse that recognized Jesus' relationship as a man with the Father. No problem here. As a man, the second person of the Trinity looked to the first person of the Trinity as his God, and Paul simply expresses such in Ephesians 1. When are you going to say something meaningful?

    Still not our position. Honestly, you claim to have been a Trinitarian. How can you be this ignorant of the Trinitarian position? The flesh is not a person. The second person as a man looked to the Father as his God.

    Yes, you are robbing Jesus of his Biblical identity: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
    Indeed it is your trin position.
    Trins teach one of the 3 persons took on flesh, and that flesh had a will of a human being. This equates to 4 wills, unless the person that took on flesh revealed his will in his flesh's will..
    "Not my will but thine be done", said to the 1st person.
    What you have is a heavenly disturbance of wills, or 4 wills(a human will).
    The 2nd person having 2 wills is not schizophrenic, so there are 4 persons(3 divine and 1 human), to make sense of this.
    ....4 persons(wills) in the Godhead total.
    Yikes!
    Obviously, you are very confused. Your arrival at 4 persons shows how disingenuous you are. However, I would like to point out one thing: when you realized that your Scriptural evidence was lacking, you stooped to mocking a theology you obviously don't understand. I take this as an admission that you don't have a Scriptural reason to reject the claim that Jesus as a man legitimately looked to the Father as his God in Trinitarianism.

    God Bless

    Comment


    • Originally posted by DoctrinesofGraceBapt View Post

      Obviously, you are very confused. Your arrival at 4 persons shows how disingenuous you are. However, I would like to point out one thing: when you realized that your Scriptural evidence was lacking, you stooped to mocking a theology you obviously don't understand. I take this as an admission that you don't have a Scriptural reason to reject the claim that Jesus as a man legitimately looked to the Father as his God in Trinitarianism.

      God Bless
      Why even contend with such a fool in his folly? He has no theological baseline for which there can be conversation. He will not concede that his heterodoxy and heresy are what they are.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by DoctrinesofGraceBapt View Post

        Obviously, you are very confused. Your arrival at 4 persons shows how disingenuous you are. However, I would like to point out one thing: when you realized that your Scriptural evidence was lacking, you stooped to mocking a theology you obviously don't understand. I take this as an admission that you don't have a Scriptural reason to reject the claim that Jesus as a man legitimately looked to the Father as his God in Trinitarianism.

        God Bless
        Why did the flesh of the 2nd person have 2 wills?

        You know he told God, not my will but thine be done.

        That means the 2nd person has 2 wills or there was a resistance in heaven between the 2nd person and the other 2.

        Face it, I am right.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by PHENOMENA View Post

          Why even contend with such a fool in his folly? He has no theological baseline for which there can be conversation. He will not concede that his heterodoxy and heresy are what they are.
          You are welcome to debate in English here, just leave your phony Greek redefinitions at the front door😀

          Pull up a chair, get a cup of coffee and stay awhile.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Truther View Post
            Obviously, you are very confused. Your arrival at 4 persons shows how disingenuous you are. However, I would like to point out one thing: when you realized that your Scriptural evidence was lacking, you stooped to mocking a theology you obviously don't understand. I take this as an admission that you don't have a Scriptural reason to reject the claim that Jesus as a man legitimately looked to the Father as his God in Trinitarianism.
            Why did the flesh of the 2nd person have 2 wills?
            The flesh isn't a person. The flesh doesn't have any wills. The 2nd person has 2 wills, one for each nature.

            You know he told God, not my will but thine be done.
            Yes, as a man. Therefore, no problem here. His human will submitted to God.

            That means the 2nd person has 2 wills or there was a resistance in heaven between the 2nd person and the other 2.
            Face it, I am right.
            Nope, you are just very confused. If you cared to read something, you would know that according to Trinitarian Orthodoxy Christ has two wills, but you have no reason to believe each will constitutes another person. Therefore, your conclusion was wrong. On a side note, it's funny to see you run like a banshee from the fact that all your "verses" ended up being in error.

            God Bless

            Comment


            • Originally posted by DoctrinesofGraceBapt View Post

              The flesh isn't a person. The flesh doesn't have any wills. The 2nd person has 2 wills, one for each nature.



              Yes, as a man. Therefore, no problem here. His human will submitted to God.



              Nope, you are just very confused. If you cared to read something, you would know that according to Trinitarian Orthodoxy Christ has two wills, but you have no reason to believe each will constitutes another person. Therefore, your conclusion was wrong. On a side note, it's funny to see you run like a banshee from the fact that all your "verses" ended up being in error.

              God Bless
              LOL, now I have heard it all.

              1 person with 2 wills.

              "....not my will, but mine be done".

              You're killin' me!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Truther View Post
                The flesh isn't a person. The flesh doesn't have any wills. The 2nd person has 2 wills, one for each nature.

                Yes, as a man. Therefore, no problem here. His human will submitted to God.

                Nope, you are just very confused. If you cared to read something, you would know that according to Trinitarian Orthodoxy Christ has two wills, but you have no reason to believe each will constitutes another person. Therefore, your conclusion was wrong. On a side note, it's funny to see you run like a banshee from the fact that all your "verses" ended up being in error.
                LOL, now I have heard it all.
                1 person with 2 wills.
                ROFL, this was new for you? This has been a noted doctrine in the Church for 1500 years. The heresy of Monothelitism, two natures and one will, was officially condemned at the Third Council of Constantinople, 680-681. For someone as confident as you are in your Theological understanding, you sure are ignorant.

                "....not my will, but mine be done".
                You're killin' me!
                LOL, you really think this condemns my position? ROFL!!!

                God Bless

                Comment


                • Originally posted by DoctrinesofGraceBapt View Post

                  ROFL, this was new for you? This has been a noted doctrine in the Church for 1500 years. The heresy of Monothelitism, two natures and one will, was officially condemned at the Third Council of Constantinople, 680-681. For someone as confident as you are in your Theological understanding, you sure are ignorant.



                  LOL, you really think this condemns my position? ROFL!!!

                  God Bless
                  No wonder it seemed silly.

                  I used to to teach it cookie cutter oneness, then over a period of time, started to notice 2 persons, each with a will...a divine will vs a human will.

                  I actually began to believe the Bible then let the 2 be who they are without presupposition.

                  Got tired of teaching God was split personality.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Truther View Post
                    ROFL, this was new for you? This has been a noted doctrine in the Church for 1500 years. The heresy of Monothelitism, two natures and one will, was officially condemned at the Third Council of Constantinople, 680-681. For someone as confident as you are in your Theological understanding, you sure are ignorant.

                    LOL, you really think this condemns my position? ROFL!!!
                    No wonder it seemed silly.
                    Declaring something silly due it being recognized Trinitarian Orthodoxy is simply an expression of your irrational bias against Trinitarianism.

                    I used to teach it cookie cutter oneness, then over a period of time, started to notice 2 persons, each with a will...a divine will vs a human will.
                    Good for you. You saw one of the inherent inconsistencies within Oneness. Jesus clearly uses his human will to affirm the presence of another, a divine person distinct from himself, the Father. However, you never took two seconds to see how that would work within Trinitarianism.

                    I actually began to believe the Bible then let the 2 be who they are without presupposition.
                    An assertion not backed up by reality. If you actually began to believe the Bible, and I was wrong, then you would be able to make a meaningful refutation of my position. You inability to do so condemns your understanding of Biblical truth.

                    Got tired of teaching God was split personality.
                    Good for you. No problem of that in Trinitarianism. You might want to thoughtfully consider that position given the bankruptcy of your current position..

                    God Bless

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DoctrinesofGraceBapt View Post

                      Declaring something silly due it being recognized Trinitarian Orthodoxy is simply an expression of your irrational bias against Trinitarianism.



                      Good for you. You saw one of the inherent inconsistencies within Oneness. Jesus clearly uses his human will to affirm the presence of another, a divine person distinct from himself, the Father. However, you never took two seconds to see how that would work within Trinitarianism.



                      An assertion not backed up by reality. If you actually began to believe the Bible, and I was wrong, then you would be able to make a meaningful refutation of my position. You inability to do so condemns your understanding of Biblical truth.



                      Good for you. No problem of that in Trinitarianism. You might want to thoughtfully consider that position given the bankruptcy of your current position..

                      God Bless
                      Sorry. Trins teach 1 person with 2 differing/opposing wills, as you have openly demonstrated.

                      This is indeed the Son of God(God the Son) possessing 2 personalities.

                      I saw a movie called Sybil in the 70s that showed a possessed girl with multiple wills.

                      Jesus Christ is not creepy as incarnationist depict.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Truther View Post
                        Declaring something silly due it being recognized Trinitarian Orthodoxy is simply an expression of your irrational bias against Trinitarianism.

                        Good for you. You saw one of the inherent inconsistencies within Oneness. Jesus clearly uses his human will to affirm the presence of another, a divine person distinct from himself, the Father. However, you never took two seconds to see how that would work within Trinitarianism.

                        An assertion not backed up by reality. If you actually began to believe the Bible, and I was wrong, then you would be able to make a meaningful refutation of my position. You inability to do so condemns your understanding of Biblical truth.

                        Good for you. No problem of that in Trinitarianism. You might want to thoughtfully consider that position given the bankruptcy of your current position..
                        Sorry. Trins teach 1 person with 2 differing/opposing wills, as you have openly demonstrated.
                        This is indeed the Son of God(God the Son) possessing 2 personalities.
                        Nope, not even close. One person with two nature and therefore two wills in no way implies two personalities. This is an assertion without a rational.

                        I saw a movie called Sybil in the 70s that showed a possessed girl with multiple wills.
                        Jesus Christ is not creepy as incarnationist depict.
                        As if referring to a movie from the 70s is a meaningful way to make a point.

                        God Bless

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by DoctrinesofGraceBapt View Post

                          Nope, not even close. One person with two nature and therefore two wills in no way implies two personalities. This is an assertion without a rational.



                          As if referring to a movie from the 70s is a meaningful way to make a point.

                          God Bless
                          If Jesus had 2 separate wills then there is indecisiveness in God.

                          I cant see it now....

                          (In Gethsemane)Which will must I follow?

                          Not my will...but mine other will be done.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Truther View Post
                            Nope, not even close. One person with two nature and therefore two wills in no way implies two personalities. This is an assertion without a rational.
                            As if referring to a movie from the 70s is a meaningful way to make a point.
                            If Jesus had 2 separate wills then there is indecisiveness in God.
                            Why? You can assert things, but that's a far, far cry from actually justifying what you are saying. What about two wills implies indecisiveness? Nothing. Two wills opens the possibility of disagreement, and therefore indecisiveness, when you are talking about two persons, but given that we are talking about one person with two natures, and therefore two wills, this possibility dissolves into impossibility. With respect to God, the Father and the Son are simply one with one Divine will. Therefore, how could God be indecisive at all? God doesn't have two wills; God has one will. One person who is God does have a second nature that has another will, but that other will doesn't count with respect to God proper.

                            I can't see it now....
                            (In Gethsemane)Which will must I follow?
                            Not my will...but mine other will be done.
                            Empty mockery is not a meaningful way to respond. Yes, Jesus' other will, which is also the Father's, was what Jesus submitted to in this passage, but none that is relevant to the Trinitarian framework. We have two wills: one human one divine. In this passage, we have the human will of Jesus submit to the divine will. No problem here for either prospective. You are just taking a genetic comment from Jesus where he submits his human will to the divine will and inferring from that Trinitarianism can't be true even though you refuse to consider what Trinitarians are actually saying. Inference that doesn't apply due to your refusal to consider what Trinitarianism teaches amounts to nothing.

                            God Bless

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by DoctrinesofGraceBapt View Post

                              Why? You can assert things, but that's a far, far cry from actually justifying what you are saying. What about two wills implies indecisiveness? Nothing. Two wills opens the possibility of disagreement, and therefore indecisiveness, when you are talking about two persons, but given that we are talking about one person with two natures, and therefore two wills, this possibility dissolves into impossibility. With respect to God, the Father and the Son are simply one with one Divine will. Therefore, how could God be indecisive at all? God doesn't have two wills; God has one will. One person who is God does have a second nature that has another will, but that other will doesn't count with respect to God proper.



                              Empty mockery is not a meaningful way to respond. Yes, Jesus' other will, which is also the Father's, was what Jesus submitted to in this passage, but none that is relevant to the Trinitarian framework. We have two wills: one human one divine. In this passage, we have the human will of Jesus submit to the divine will. No problem here for either prospective. You are just taking a genetic comment from Jesus where he submits his human will to the divine will and inferring from that Trinitarianism can't be true even though you refuse to consider what Trinitarians are actually saying. Inference that doesn't apply due to your refusal to consider what Trinitarianism teaches amounts to nothing.

                              God Bless

                              This is silly.

                              The 3 persons have the 2nd person develop a human will that is at odds with their own corresponding wills.

                              This 4th human will is in emnity with the will of God.

                              It is not wanting to do the will of God, but must grapple with the will of God.

                              This is visible in the garden..

                              This is clearly a tug of war withing the 2nd person of the trinity...question; is it fair for "God the Son" to create himself a new, 2nd subservient will, by getting Mary pregnant and creating himself a baby that has it's own will?

                              ....and the other 2 persons in heaven don't have to do that?

                              Comment


                              • And please don't start trying to say that the 3 persons in heaven do not have independent wills but a single will(thought process).

                                This would be a 3 headed single person.

                                A person has a will...period.

                                https://www.google.com/search?q=trin...UHl8sUs_eR9eM:
                                Last edited by Truther; 04-22-19, 09:51 AM.

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