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Why do we need God?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by OniSoldier View Post
    However, you jump from the limitless God assumption straight into how we can use that assumption to reject any other form of theism. Which is a great process for defending the Christian faith and explaining why it would be one of the better religions to believe, but it kind of ignores the main question of why anyone actually needs to believe in God.
    Be patient; I'm getting there. And let's clarify the matter: I am not leaping from a "limitless God assumption" to anything. I am starting from a skeptical position about the claim or hypothesis, "God exists." I'm using logic to examine what can instantly be discarded because of failed logic, particularly te law of non-cotnradiction.
    Originally posted by OniSoldier View Post
    Trust me, I have done a lot of research into Christianity, God...
    I trust you, Oni, but with all due respect - and I mean no offense by this next statement - but that claim is nowhere in evidence in these posts and all I have to go on is these posts.

    For example, the problem of Bible inerrancy is easily resolved but I read no evidence of any understanding of what I posted and anyone claiming "I have done a lot off research......" surely would already know and have resolved the problem that doesn't actually exist.

    So how about we put our penises back in our pants and stop seeing how far the other can pee? Okay?
    Originally posted by OniSoldier View Post
    Most questions I research (those that hindered my faith) lead me to more questions than when I started.
    Why would you expect it to be any other way, Oni?

    What you're trying to do is understand the complex infinite from a point of simple finiteness. I've been a Christian for over 34 years and before that I was a hedonist, a practicing Buddhist, an agnostic, atheist, humanist, and I was even in a cult for a brief time. I don't post that to boast; I'm saying I too have done some searching, and I can approach the problem of "Why do we need God?" from several different starting points.

    Your frustrations are completely normal, but I suggest to you that at least some of them stem from unrealistic expectations because if you hope to come to a point where you have no more questions then you will ive a life of self-imposed disappointment - whether a believer in God or not!

    And I am certainly not going to be able to answer all your questions, and even if I were able to do so it would take many posts and you'd have to hang in here with me through it all. You asked me to trust you. I ask you to do the same.

    I believe I can help with an answer to "Why do we need God?" You're new here so you don't know my style yet, but most here can tell you I can be a bit of a nudge when it comes to staying on-topic. Everything I post will be related to the single question asked in this op (or at least that's my plan).
    Originally posted by OniSoldier View Post
    Once I accepted that you can't intellectualize God, I understood that this is a religion that majorly revolves around faith, simply put. That's where I have always struggled, I just can't muster up faith, and when I did, I couldn't keep it, even with reading the bible, seeking earnestly, and praying, at the end of the day, I would still be mentally exhausted because I was accepting something without having any sort of proof, especially because I never heard from God, felt that my prayers were never answered, and I just couldn't accept any of it.
    Wow. There's a lot in there to address.

    First, faith can be the only way to any God because any God that can be reached by the finite is Her/Him/Itself finite in that way. That god is not a God. He might be a superior life form, but that's not a big-G God. But that doesn't mean faith is unreasonable or irrational. I'll come back to this point when we're done because when we're done I'll summarized at least some of the evidence and suggest there is plenty of reason to understand our need for God even if God can't be intellectualized.

    Second, there's the recurring problem of inordinate expectations. Earlier there was the aforementioned problem of unending questions. Now there are the problems of you being able to "muster" faith, and the perception of unanswered prayer, the performance mentality of "I need to keep it," and the refusal to accept it all. If you change the way you think then you'll change the way you act and abandoning it all is not the only option. In more fundamentalist language I would tell you that the belief you have to do it all, understand it all, and keep it all is.... a lie from the pit of hell . You've clearly had a thirst. I respectfully submit to you that this thirst of which you're acutely aware is one reason you need God. It comes from Him and you will find rest through it in Him, but it's not a condition that can be satisfied on this side of the grave and that may be one of the reasons I can help because I too study and have a never ending list of questions (some of which perhaps I'll share with you along the way) but I have solved this problem of thirst. Most of us Christians here have. You can too.

    I'll skip the rest for now so as not to digress far afiled of your original inquiry, "Why do we need God?"
    Originally posted by OniSoldier View Post
    So now, many months later (after giving up trying to believe and follow God) I feel good, I enjoy life, I have no complaints really, I am genuinely nice to people because I tend to see the good in everyone (or I try to as often as I can), and I feel perfectly fine.
    Does any of that mean God has stopped His involvement in Your life?

    I'm going to revisit the "If... then... else...." approach in a separate post because this one, while informative, won't get you to an answer to your inquiry. and I'd like to keep a thread intact as much as possible.
    All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

    “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)


    • #17
      If... then... else....

      Since you appear to fathom the logic equation itself I'll let you sort through the theisms more easily discarded, such as the polytheisms (there can be several small-g gods, but there can't be several big-G Gods because that would be self-contradictory if they claim to be almighty).

      Here's an example that will eradicate nearly all competitors to Christianity:

      The western mythologies have personal gods. These gods have eyes and ears, arms and legs (usually), cognition, affect (emotion), and volition but none of them are infinite. They are always fighting with one another and this one wins on this occasion but another wins on that occasion. Zeus fights with Ra, who fights with Plut who fights with Thor who fights with Ochosi who fights with Aine, and so on and so on. These gods are personal, but not infinite. None are all powerful or all knowing or any other omni-attribute (even when it's claimed they are.

      Compare this to the eastern mythologies. These are the universal forces of the universe; the yin and the yang, the tao, etc. and if we align ourselves with these forces then we can reach enlightenment and become one with the universe. These forces are pervasive but not personal. The universe has no purpose and no will, and if there is a mind it is something we're all a prt of and not something constructing the universe itself. These forces don't actually care about anything, much less you or me. They just are. They are infinite, but not personal.

      Now compare this to the God of the Bible, the Hebrew God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob from whence the Jews, Christians, and Muslims formed their religion. If this God's report is to be taken at face value then He is a He. He is a God who is both personal and infinite! He possesses cognitive, affective, volitional and relational qualities and also possesses omni-attributes.

      Why is this relevant or important?

      Because the world world in which we live, the world we observe and experience on a daily basis is both personal and infinite. What explains these two conditions? IF there is a God, THEN any God that actually does exist MUST be both infinite and personal, or ELSE we have a reason to reject that god.

      So of all the gods humans have come up with the God of the Bible turns out to be the one God that meets the conditions we regularly observe in creation. No supposedly Judeo-Christianity originated with a bunch of illiterate wandering nomads who stole their religion from others. That argument, Oni, would have us believe these illiterates came up with the one single theology that addresses the most profound conditions of existence.

      Let me mae a couple of statements for the sake of full disclosure. There are a few rare theisms that do assert an infinite-personal God. there are a few Pacific cultures who have such a god and their theism reads uncannily like Christianity. Most notably though is a sect of the Sikhs in Hinduism who explicitly teach God is One (Hinduism is otherwise polytheistic) and infinite and personal, but... they hold this God is unknowable.

      The God of the Bible is infinite, personal, and knowable.

      And that is exactly what we would expect as a consequence of logical necessities for any god claiming to be God.

      Happy to answer any questions about that, although I will reserve the larger issues of relevance to "Why do we need God?" for latter, trusting that you can already see some of the implications answering that question.

      Have you, in your studies, understood the premise of "Original Thought"?

      Are you aware of the premise of "Inherent information" (as opposed to attributed information)?

      That's where I'd like to go next as we build a foundation for understanding an answer to "Why do we need God?"

      Your patience and perseverance are appreciated, because I understand you may choose to leave any time.

      All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

      “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)


      • #18
        Originally posted by OniSoldier View Post
        That's the same response I hear from every Christian. "You can do as you please." So, the question was never answered.
        The question WAS answered precisely, and accurately. YOU CAN do what you please (since humans have freedom of WILL). However, there will be consequences related to any Decision you make.

        Why would an individual need a relationship with God?
        As I said - relationship with God = equals a pleasant eternity with HIM, since physical life on earth isn't the "Main Game". NO relationship with God = a lousy eternity.

        If you assume everything the Bible says is true, that's fantastic, but just because you or millions of people believe it, it does not make it true.
        TRUE STATEMENT!! what a million people think doesn't mean SPIT.

        The truth is the truth regardless of what a million people think.

        "There is, however, only one absolute truth, and anything OTHER THAN THAT is hot air." This pushes non-believers away, and I hear it constantly from my family (all Christians).

        The thing is, one absolute truth (let's say in a different country on the other side of the Earth) can be much different than your absolute truth based on the belief that the Bible is totally true.
        Then, by definition, if what you say is true, then there IS NO ABSOLUTE TRUTH, and even the concept of "truth" is meaningless.

        OF COURSE MY ABSOLUTE TRUTH pushes "non-believers" away AS IT SHOULD -

        Do the math!! it's because I'm telling them that they're WRONG - and humans don't like to be told that. But what they LIKE constitutes NOTHING of importance, if it leads inexorably to an ETERNITY of misery.

        If one is happy, lives a moral life, and sees no need for God in their life, then I ask, why is it wrong that he or she does not accept the God of the Bible?
        ANd I've already clearly stated that: Majoring on your "physical life" (for 90 years give or take) in pleasure, compared with an ETERNITY of utter regret and torment because you "Enjoyed your few minutes of life, and saw no need of God" is a decision that borders on insanity.


        • #19
          Originally posted by OniSoldier View Post

          Lol! I am not talking to lowly people about my "problems." Additionally, I don't need to talk to anyone about what you are observing as "problems." I don't consider anyone to be lowly here, nor anywhere really, or at least I try not to (we all have our subconscious prejudices and flaws). I don't even consider this a problem! I simply wanted to see some Christian perspectives to this situation: living in content without the belief of the Judeo-Christian God.

          Yes, I lost my way, and after losing my way, I began to ask why we even come to a place where we feel that we "need," God. I have a few answers of my own, but I thought it would be nice to get the opinions of others.

          Did you ever answer the question or have you just been asking more questions? It's hard for me to tell.

          Also, the #1 and #2 questions that you asked about are copies of the exact question that I asked, but with different wording.

          You ask why one would need anything else.

          That's what I am asking. If those pre-conditions you stated above are assumed, and one would not need anything else, then why would one "need" God?

          I'm curious about opinions, not more questions.

          Originally posted by OniSoldier View Post

          ... I'm curious about opinions, not more questions.
          n>OK, you don't want more questions, so I will just tell you.

          Originally posted by OniSoldier View Post

          ... If those pre-conditions you stated above are assumed ... then why would one "need" God? ...
          n>OK, you don't want more questions, so I will just tell you.
          Read more carefully. I did not "assume" "those pre-conditions". They were not preconditions. They were meant as obvious conditions of reality most rational mature humans should be able to acknowledge. But apparently you won't or can't. Please do not misrepresent my stuff. Since I did not say that... be aware that if you continue to misrepresent me, we're done.
          1) Since you have not existed forever, you need created. Or perhaps you do think you are eternally self existent. Here's what I will assume: I will assume you read sufficiently carefully to get that.
          2) Since you did not spontaneously poof into existence from nothing -- alone, on your own, you need created. Or perhaps you do think you think like Hawking, that the universe -- and you in particular -- created itself from nothing. Here's what I will assume: I will assume you read sufficiently carefully to get that.

          Mouser Larry Roy: "yippee ki yay"
          “... see the loonies in their cages… are they not witty… how much amusement they afford… ours is a human world, theirs is a bestial world… " Bedlam


          • #20
            Because to live a fruitful life free from self hate and worldly judgements, you need to experience the grace and mercy from our Lord Jesus Christ. Only through him we are able to feel the real love we have all been desperately needing.god loves, Jesus saves. Amen brother good luck


            • #21
              We all need the love of God.
              God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son,that anyone who believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 God did not send his Son into the world to condemn it, but to save it.
              18 “There is no eternal doom awaiting those who trust him to save them. But those who don’t trust him have already been tried and condemned for not believing in the only Son of God. 19 Their sentence is based on this fact: that the Light from heaven came into the world, but they loved the darkness more than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 They hated the heavenly Light because they wanted to sin in the darkness. They stayed away from that Light for fear their sins would be exposed and they would be punished. 21 But those doing right come gladly to the Light to let everyone see that they are doing what God wants them to.” John 3:16-21


              • #22
                Originally posted by OniSoldier View Post
                I have a simple question and nearly all Christians who I ask give the same answer. My question is: Why do I need God?
                Simple answer: You, you wife, and your kids ARE ALL SINNERS, and you HAVE FALLEN SHORT of the Glory of God. That you're happy and satisfied with things as they are is nice, but unimportant in the absolute.

                If you (your Wife, and your kids DO NOT become "born again of the Holy Spirit", and become Christians (not just religious, or "cultural Christians"), then your SIN remains on you, and will cause you to be judged with satan and his people, and banished eternally from God's presence, so "Heaven" will not be an option. Anybody who SEES the final judgement, WILL NOT MAKE THE CUT!!!

                Those who have REPENTED Of their sin and surrendered to God in faith that the BLOOD OF JESUS cleanses them from all sin no longer have to fear Judgement.

                This is a genuine and honest question.
                And I gave an honest answer. you should talk to a pastor from an evangelical; Church - Baptist, Assembly of God, etc. and see about getting things straight with God. Your present "feelings" about it will prove fatal.