Announcement

Collapse

Message to all users:

https://carm.org/forum-rules

Super Member Subscription
https://carm.org/carm-super-members-banner-ad-signup

As most of you are aware, we had a crash to forums and were down for over two days a while back. We did have to do an upgrade to the vbulletin software to fix the forums and that has created changes, VB no longer provide the hybrid or threaded forums. There are some issues/changes to the forums we are not able to fix or change. Also note the link address change, please let friends and posters know of the changed link to the forums. For now this is the only link available, https://forums.carm.org/vb5/ but if clicking on forum on carm.org homepage it will now send you to this link. (edited to add https: now working.

Again, we are working through some of the posting and viewing issues to learn how to post with the changes, you will have to check and test the different features, icons that have changed. You may also want to go to profile settings,since many of the notifications, information in profile, also to update/edit your avatar by clicking on avatar space, pull down arrow next to login for user settings.

Edit to add "How to read forums, to make it easier."
Pull down arrow next to login name upper right select profile, or user settings when page opens to profile,select link in tab that says Account. Then select/choose options, go down to Conversation Detail Options, Select Display mode Posts, NOT Activity, that selection of Posts will make the pages of discussions go to last post on last page rather than out of order that happens if you choose activity threads. Then be sure to go to bottom and select SAVE Changes in your profile options. You can then follow discussions by going through the pages, to the last page having latest responses. Then click on the other links Privacy, Notifications, to select viewing options,the forums get easier if you open all the tabs or links in your profile, user settings and select options. To join Super Member, pull down arrow next to login name, select User Settings and then click on tab/link at top that says Subscriptions.

Thank you for your patience and God Bless.

Diane S
https://carm.org/forum-rules
See more
See less

The Homeschool/Public School/Private School "Wars"

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The Homeschool/Public School/Private School "Wars"

    Hi all,

    I'm an evangelical Christian but most always post on the secular boards (it's a long story). At any rate, I'm also a public school teacher who used to be a staunch advocate for homeschooling, until just a couple of years ago. I am not a homeschool detractor as many of my public school colleagues are, but I will no longer vocally support homeschooling when it comes up in the staff lounge or other places, as I faithfully did a few years ago.

    Why not?

    The wars.

    I don't know why schooling must be a war among Christians, but it seems it is so. My take: to make themselves feel better about their choice, many (not all) homeschooling families demonized the public schools--I mean all of them. And sold this to their children. And infested even their churches with it. I don't need to go into details. If you're a Christian, you know what I mean, don't you?

    Just one topic to explore: special needs students, whose numbers are exploding, and the lack of care private Christian schools typically provide for them. So, these children are put in public schools, and then many Christians go 'round badmouthing the public schools these children are left to--the very least of these we are supposed to be caretaking.

    (All this said: I know very well that public schools are NOT perfect and have many problems. I am NOT a rose-colored glasses, union-loving, I'm on a pedestal public school teacher, either. Believe me.)
    One thing have I asked of the LORD... that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze upon the beauty of the LORD and to inquire in his temple.--Psalm 27:4

  • #2
    Originally posted by WendyWrites View Post
    Hi all,

    I'm an evangelical Christian but most always post on the secular boards (it's a long story). At any rate, I'm also a public school teacher who used to be a staunch advocate for homeschooling, until just a couple of years ago. I am not a homeschool detractor as many of my public school colleagues are, but I will no longer vocally support homeschooling when it comes up in the staff lounge or other places, as I faithfully did a few years ago.

    Why not?

    The wars.

    I don't know why schooling must be a war among Christians, but it seems it is so. My take: to make themselves feel better about their choice, many (not all) homeschooling families demonized the public schools--I mean all of them. And sold this to their children. And infested even their churches with it. I don't need to go into details. If you're a Christian, you know what I mean, don't you?

    Just one topic to explore: special needs students, whose numbers are exploding, and the lack of care private Christian schools typically provide for them. So, these children are put in public schools, and then many Christians go 'round badmouthing the public schools these children are left to--the very least of these we are supposed to be caretaking.

    (All this said: I know very well that public schools are NOT perfect and have many problems. I am NOT a rose-colored glasses, union-loving, I'm on a pedestal public school teacher, either. Believe me.)
    I think I know what you mean, but given Australia is not as staunchly Christian as the US we don't see much of it here. Many parents do take their kids out of the public school system and into private christian schools. A very small number homeschool, but it's infinitesimally small. I think I've met one kid who was homeschooled in my life. He was very smart but socially maladjusted.
    Most aussies respect the teaching profession, but many will blame teachers for their kids' behavioral issues and poor grades.
    "Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right. Here I am, stuck in the middle with you"

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Aussieguy View Post

      I think I know what you mean, but given Australia is not as staunchly Christian as the US we don't see much of it here. Many parents do take their kids out of the public school system and into private christian schools. A very small number homeschool, but it's infinitesimally small. I think I've met one kid who was homeschooled in my life. He was very smart but socially maladjusted.
      Most aussies respect the teaching profession, but many will blame teachers for their kids' behavioral issues and poor grades.
      I'm big into individual freedom and wholly recognize that parents have the right to choose their child's schooling. I really don't understand, say, Germany, where homeschooling is "illegal". The state does not own your child, how can it be "illegal"? So, do parents have the right to choose their child's schooling? Absolutely, as long as they are not smuggling "homeschooling" in as a cover for abuse. That does happen, but only in a tiny minority of cases.

      To be blunt, many (not all) homeschoolers are very preachy about their choice, as you can read on the secular boards. Again: the public schools have legitimate problems and are NOT above reproach, believe me. But it's beyond that for many homeschooling parents; it's deeply personal. They made a difficult personal decision for their family and there's between a little and a lot of judginess for some people in those that don't. That's just it. The adults know how to hide that in social situations.

      But their kids? They don't. So when the homeschool kids talk to MY kids about going to public school, it's without the social filter on that parents KNOW how to put on--the kids mouth what they hear at home, unfiltered.

      It's not a good thing. I'll just say that.
      One thing have I asked of the LORD... that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze upon the beauty of the LORD and to inquire in his temple.--Psalm 27:4

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by WendyWrites View Post

        I'm big into individual freedom and wholly recognize that parents have the right to choose their child's schooling. I really don't understand, say, Germany, where homeschooling is "illegal". The state does not own your child, how can it be "illegal"? So, do parents have the right to choose their child's schooling? Absolutely, as long as they are not smuggling "homeschooling" in as a cover for abuse. That does happen, but only in a tiny minority of cases.

        To be blunt, many (not all) homeschoolers are very preachy about their choice, as you can read on the secular boards. Again: the public schools have legitimate problems and are NOT above reproach, believe me. But it's beyond that for many homeschooling parents; it's deeply personal. They made a difficult personal decision for their family and there's between a little and a lot of judginess for some people in those that don't. That's just it. The adults know how to hide that in social situations.

        But their kids? They don't. So when the homeschool kids talk to MY kids about going to public school, it's without the social filter on that parents KNOW how to put on--the kids mouth what they hear at home, unfiltered.

        It's not a good thing. I'll just say that.
        I don't believe homeschooling should be illegal, but minimum academic standards are required. I'm not sure how that works with home school.
        "Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right. Here I am, stuck in the middle with you"

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Aussieguy View Post

          I don't believe homeschooling should be illegal, but minimum academic standards are required. I'm not sure how that works with home school.
          In the US, it depends on the state. Some states are very strict and kids need to be tested regularly if they are homeschooled. In other states, there's very little oversight. Honestly, most homeschoolers do better than public school kids. Homeschooling parents are almost unfailingly dedicated to their kids' education, put a lot of time and thought into it, and the kids do very well. There are exceptions, always. But the results can not be refuted, speaking generally. I mean the teacher-student ratio alone can't be beat, right? I'm not opposed to homeschooling on principle. I'm sad and disheartened that this has turned into an issue of contention in the church at large--not so much in my church but in the Christian community.
          One thing have I asked of the LORD... that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze upon the beauty of the LORD and to inquire in his temple.--Psalm 27:4

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by WendyWrites View Post

            In the US, it depends on the state. Some states are very strict and kids need to be tested regularly if they are homeschooled. In other states, there's very little oversight. Honestly, most homeschoolers do better than public school kids. Homeschooling parents are almost unfailingly dedicated to their kids' education, put a lot of time and thought into it, and the kids do very well. There are exceptions, always. But the results can not be refuted, speaking generally. I mean the teacher-student ratio alone can't be beat, right? I'm not opposed to homeschooling on principle. I'm sad and disheartened that this has turned into an issue of contention in the church at large--not so much in my church but in the Christian community.
            in all honesty, I don't hear much of the christian community beyond my own church. I'm not sure if that's good or bad.
            "Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right. Here I am, stuck in the middle with you"

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Aussieguy View Post

              in all honesty, I don't hear much of the christian community beyond my own church. I'm not sure if that's good or bad.
              I would say, branch out if you can. No remark on your church, I don't know that much about it. See if there's a wider Christian community in your town you can be involved in in some way, I know you're limited however. Visit some of the other boards here on CARM and get to know folks that way. There might be some Bible studies online that you would enjoy, you could look into that!
              One thing have I asked of the LORD... that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze upon the beauty of the LORD and to inquire in his temple.--Psalm 27:4

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by WendyWrites View Post

                I would say, branch out if you can. No remark on your church, I don't know that much about it. See if there's a wider Christian community in your town you can be involved in in some way, I know you're limited however. Visit some of the other boards here on CARM and get to know folks that way. There might be some Bible studies online that you would enjoy, you could look into that!

                The church itself is quite ecumenical, it's mostly just I don't get much of a chance to get out Having a disability is isolating in so many ways. i can't just leave the house when i want, plus being in a wheelchair and having some (minor) communication difficulties can make one feel self conscious. just typing this one handed is difficult.
                "Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right. Here I am, stuck in the middle with you"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Aussieguy View Post


                  The church itself is quite ecumenical, it's mostly just I don't get much of a chance to get out Having a disability is isolating in so many ways. i can't just leave the house when i want, plus being in a wheelchair and having some (minor) communication difficulties can make one feel self conscious. just typing this one handed is difficult.
                  I can imagine. I'm praying for you still. You seem to be doing well with one hand though! Are there any resources through the gov't to get you voice-to-text software (btw, I think this is just what tax dollars are meant for. Disability is badly abused in the States but helping people who need it is not what I'm talking about)
                  One thing have I asked of the LORD... that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze upon the beauty of the LORD and to inquire in his temple.--Psalm 27:4

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by WendyWrites View Post

                    I can imagine. I'm praying for you still. You seem to be doing well with one hand though! Are there any resources through the gov't to get you voice-to-text software (btw, I think this is just what tax dollars are meant for. Disability is badly abused in the States but helping people who need it is not what I'm talking about)
                    I am looking into getting voice to text software. I'm working with a speech therapist and occupational therapist to get some. Believe it or not, there are two speech therapists at my church, and I'm seeing neither of them. i understand what you mean by abuse. in Australia, the disability support pension is very hard to get. I was denied the first time I applied. I'm very glad of the support I get. I mean for example, I don't have a spare 5k to spend on a power wheelchair, nor could I afford to pay for personal carers to help shower me, etc. This is the kind of stuff I used to pay tax for.
                    "Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right. Here I am, stuck in the middle with you"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I think this conversation would be different and perhaps better had over in a Christian board, since this op is about "why schooling must be a war among Christians".

                      Have you read any home school apologetics at places like American Vision (AV)? From their perspective the "war" is warranted and just.

                      I was open but not wholly supportive of home schooling when my wife first proposed it. We discussed the matter for the better part of three years before committing to do so. We sent the kids to private school as a compromise in the interim.

                      The complaints about social inadequacy is myth.

                      If what I view on the television is any reflection of society at large and the direction it is heading then I don't want my kids in public school. The same goes if what I see in teens in counseling (an admittedly small portion of the populace). .


                      Three of the most prominent reasons homeschooling is controversial among Christian is because 1) home schoolers are often vocal and come across (real or perceived) judgmental, 2) an amazing amount of ignorance (or shall I be polite and call it a "lack of knowledge"?) exists even within the Christian community, and 3) it is money and resources private Christian schools would otherwise be getting. When the home schooled are few then not much money is absent from the private system but with its growth those who would otherwise be sent to private schools end up at home (and often getting a better education, imo). Just read some of these commentary articles about John MacArthur's and his executive director, Phil Johnson's views. Here are many other articles on homeschooling in general. Note how much is going on for which Christians are probably unaware. Click over to page three and read the article titled, "Homeschoolers Are Only Good for Cleaning Toilets."



                      For the record: Neither my wife or I are Reconstructionists (like those at AV). My children took SOL examinations each year and routinely scored in the top 5-10% of the nation. My son is now in a Marine Corps NROTC program studying cyber security and my daughter is a high school senior taking math and meteorology at the local community college. Although she is currently undecided she's contemplated attending college to study either theater or child development (or both).
                      All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                      “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                        I think this conversation would be different and perhaps better had over in a Christian board, since this op is about "why schooling must be a war among Christians".

                        Have you read any home school apologetics at places like American Vision (AV)? From their perspective the "war" is warranted and just.

                        I was open but not wholly supportive of home schooling when my wife first proposed it. We discussed the matter for the better part of three years before committing to do so. We sent the kids to private school as a compromise in the interim.

                        The complaints about social inadequacy is myth.

                        If what I view on the television is any reflection of society at large and the direction it is heading then I don't want my kids in public school. The same goes if what I see in teens in counseling (an admittedly small portion of the populace). .


                        Three of the most prominent reasons homeschooling is controversial among Christian is because 1) home schoolers are often vocal and come across (real or perceived) judgmental, 2) an amazing amount of ignorance (or shall I be polite and call it a "lack of knowledge"?) exists even within the Christian community, and 3) it is money and resources private Christian schools would otherwise be getting. When the home schooled are few then not much money is absent from the private system but with its growth those who would otherwise be sent to private schools end up at home (and often getting a better education, imo). Just read some of these commentary articles about John MacArthur's and his executive director, Phil Johnson's views. Here are many other articles on homeschooling in general. Note how much is going on for which Christians are probably unaware. Click over to page three and read the article titled, "Homeschoolers Are Only Good for Cleaning Toilets."



                        For the record: Neither my wife or I are Reconstructionists (like those at AV). My children took SOL examinations each year and routinely scored in the top 5-10% of the nation. My son is now in a Marine Corps NROTC program studying cyber security and my daughter is a high school senior taking math and meteorology at the local community college. Although she is currently undecided she's contemplated attending college to study either theater or child development (or both).
                        First, I expressly moved this post to a Christian forum, Josheb. This is out of the Secular forums area. All else belong to the Christians, at least as I understand it.

                        You do not have to convince me that homeschooling is a valid choice for a Christian family. I've long been convinced of that. Not only for academics, but also for many other reasons. Many years ago, when the homeschooling trend was younger, I believe social concerns were more reasonable. But no longer. Most homeschooling families ensure their kids are widely involved, often in consortiums and extracurriculars, and these kids are as "socialized" as public school kids, but maybe not in as wide as circles. Unless parents are purposely secreting kids away, this concern is of a bygone era.

                        It's interesting that you think public schools is what you see on television. Public schools, everywhere, are a reflection of their community. So a public school in Berkeley, CA is going to look very, very different than a public school in Tiny Town, Nebraska. I'm continually flummoxed that people (pretend?) not to understand this. Are there radical Marxists teaching public school? Yes. Are they likely to be Kindergarten teachers in Tiny Town, Nebraska?

                        Nope.

                        But this is my experience with homeschooling families, not all, but TOO MANY of them lump all public schools together, from the inner city schools to the great public schools in Tiny Towns and suburbs and just say teachers are there to "indoctrinate". This is ridiculous. In reality some homeschoolers have an agenda for doing so, but won't admit it.

                        To wrap up, no child should be trapped in failing schools. That's why I'm in favor of vouchers, to the consternation of my public school colleagues. However, if private schools accept public money, they should ALSO be beholden to accept students with special needs. No more filtering out as they are wont to do. If the public/private school debate were going on now, believe me, I would fight public schools tooth and nail.

                        But it's not. It's over. It was over long before I was born, see. Given that, some of us are called to go into the schools and be there. And some Christians, seemingly, just don't get that.
                        One thing have I asked of the LORD... that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze upon the beauty of the LORD and to inquire in his temple.--Psalm 27:4

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by WendyWrites
                          First, I expressly moved this post...
                          I see that. I must have replied beforehand.
                          Originally posted by WendyWrites
                          You do not have to convince me...
                          Not my intent. I was just covering some of the bases. I noted the clear statement of prior advocacy and understood that as recognition of merits.

                          As far as the social deficits go, it is a real concern and not one that is bygone, but it is also one that is 1) uncommon and 2) present just as much in public schools (although often ignored). I see it regularly among the home schooled community and I can a walk into any public school on any school day and find children with (untreated) social deficits. It is not a problem inherent exclusively to home schooling. We see these behaviors in a variety of people but the moment "I'm home schooled" is said the observer, the would-be diagnostician goes "Ah, yes, now it makes sense," but that just a problem of scapegoating. I have a married pair of friends and colleagues - the husband has four PhDs (four!) in the fields of psychology, education, and theology - who once fed me the party lines - seeking to enlighten me about its dangers - about home schooling. The were shocked to learn of the curriculum taught, and apologetically embarrassed to meet my quite socially engaged and adept children.

                          Let me also be clear here: the anecdotal examples of my own children may not be representative so I therefore do not want to demonstrate scapegoating in reverse. I see the problem of lack of social development in home schoolers, but it is also quite common among the publicly and privately schooled.
                          Originally posted by WendyWrites
                          It's interesting that you think public schools is what you see on television...
                          That's not what I said. That's not remotely close to what I said. Please do not misrepresent what I said. I don't and won't appreciate it. What I wrote was,

                          .
                          "If what I view on the television is any reflection of society at large and the direction it is heading then I don't want my kids in public school."
                          .
                          You are a public school teacher. I suspect you ave the same experience watching entertainment media's portrayals of teachers that I have when watching entertainment media's portrayals of psychologists/counselors. I cringe. What goes on in shows like "Good Will Hunting," "Anger Management, "Couples Counseling", or "In Treatment" is sadly misrepresentative of real life.

                          So, NO, I do not "think public schools is what I see on television," and we won't be able to discuss this op cogently and respectfully if assumptions like that are made about what I write.

                          So let me clarify.

                          There is a "chicken and egg" reciprocal condition society has has with the entertainment media (I could have included popular music along with television). The arts reflect and expand upon society and society in turn reflects and expands upon the media. Society, not school. Since school is a constituent element of society it serves as a microcosm for observing these conditions, these reciprocal cause and effects. I'm fairly confident that as a teacher you're familiar with the various benefits and deficits of visual and auditory mediums (not to be confused with television and film media) and probably use television, film, and computer audio-visuals as learning tools. These things are not inherently bad or otherwise to be avoided and nothing I write should be construed to say otherwise.

                          But to the degree that I can observe what's going on in society and discern where it's going then I can also know what goes on in public environments - all public environments, I just happened to cite school because you're a teacher. My wife was a public school teacher, Wendy. years ago I had these kinds of conversations with her and I took the role of advocacy for public schools against homeschooling.

                          And I will gladly provide you with sample from about five decades of research empirically documenting these dynamics. This shouldn't be a point of contention between us either as an educator and counselor or as two (conservative) Christians.
                          Originally posted by WendyWrites
                          To wrap up, no child should be trapped in failing schools...
                          And perhaps this aspect of "failing schools" is where the conversation should focus because the term "failing" is defined diversely.

                          I suspect but hope otherwise that this next statement will cause division between us so I want you to understand I'm not trying to poke you in the eye. While it is certainly true not all public schools are (overtly) teaching Marxism, all schools are inherently Marxist in form. The founders of the western educational system were all leftists, and many of them socialists and/or Marxists. For the purpose of understanding the history of education these distinctions are nebulous. I could start with the fact that Horace Mann was a mind-1800s (conservative and Protestant) Whig who believed, as wiki puts it, "universal public education was the best way to turn unruly American children into disciplined, judicious republican citizens," who also intentionally removed Christianity from the institution he begat. Or I could move forward a few decades and go through the influences of George Herbert Mead and John Dewey and his colleagues from the universities of Chicago and Columbia. I'm sure you're familiar with these names from your EDUC101 classes on the history of American education. I could proceed through the decades right up to today's modern school system and provide undeniable and irrefutable evidence for the Marxist influence and structure of the American public school system.

                          And I could still agree with you that most public schools do not explicitly teach Marxism.


                          But they do teach a secularized worldview that is fairly common from Berkley, California to Tiny Town, Nebraska, or Fairfax County, Virginia.


                          And any public school that does not teach reading, writing, and mathematics within a Christian worldview... is failing.



                          Even in a secular pluralistic society like America.

                          The term "failing" has many definitions and "failing does not solely mean that academic grades drop. Nor does it mean that schools fail financially, although that is certainly a concern and one that may influence some to home school. I suspect the chief definition of "failing" among home schoolers is philosophical, not academic and that while my two children probably could have received a stellar academic education in reading, writing, and math in one of the most prominent school systems in the country (possibly the world), but they would not have been provided an adequate education in worldview and meaning because this is a place public schools often either avoid or teach contrary to the views and standards my wife and I wished to teach our children. And... this is often true unwittingly because while many, if not most, teachers are Christian in worldview they are often unaware of how fundamental worldview is in education.


                          The "war" is unavoidable, Wendy. The only remaining question is will this conflict 1) be civil, 2) take place in the market place of ideas, and 3) on our ground or theirs because the battleground is the children not the public schools. The schools are simply one of many tools and as long as they keep people thinking the schools are the battle ground we're showing up in the wrong place.


                          (my apologies for the length)
                          All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                          “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Josheb View Post

                            That's not what I said. That's not remotely close to what I said. Please do not misrepresent what I said. I don't and won't appreciate it. What I wrote was,

                            .
                            "If what I view on the television is any reflection of society at large and the direction it is heading then I don't want my kids in public school."
                            .
                            You are a public school teacher. I suspect you ave the same experience watching entertainment media's portrayals of teachers that I have when watching entertainment media's portrayals of psychologists/counselors. I cringe. What goes on in shows like "Good Will Hunting," "Anger Management, "Couples Counseling", or "In Treatment" is sadly misrepresentative of real life.
                            )
                            If you never want to be misunderstood and find it so offensive you will cease contact, then you must write with exquisite clarity. And the above statement is not that. It is quite nebulous, in fact. It is nowhere stated that you meant the public school teachers were under your scrutiny. You only talked about "society at large".

                            I suspect but hope otherwise that this next statement will cause division between us so I want you to understand I'm not trying to poke you in the eye. While it is certainly true not all public schools are (overtly) teaching Marxism, all schools are inherently Marxist in form. The founders of the western educational system were all leftists, and many of them socialists and/or Marxists. For the purpose of understanding the history of education these distinctions are nebulous. I could start with the fact that Horace Mann was a mind-1800s (conservative and Protestant) Whig who believed, as wiki puts it, "universal public education was the best way to turn unruly American children into disciplined, judicious republican citizens," who also intentionally removed Christianity from the institution he begat. Or I could move forward a few decades and go through the influences of George Herbert Mead and John Dewey and his colleagues from the universities of Chicago and Columbia. I'm sure you're familiar with these names from your EDUC101 classes on the history of American education. I could proceed through the decades right up to today's modern school system and provide undeniable and irrefutable evidence for the Marxist influence and structure of the American public school system.

                            And I could still agree with you that most public schools do not explicitly teach Marxism.
                            I know all this, and would not dispute it. For these reasons and more, if we did not have public schools now but were debating their inception, I would be as dead set against them as I am public health care. But that ship has sailed. It sailed long before I was born, in fact.

                            But they do teach a secularized worldview that is fairly common from Berkley, California to Tiny Town, Nebraska, or Fairfax County, Virginia.

                            And any public school that does not teach reading, writing, and mathematics within a Christian worldview... is failing.

                            Even in a secular pluralistic society like America.
                            First, the degree of secularization is important. If secularization just means we can't actively worship or promote one religion over another here, that's not really "teaching" a secular worldview. Others I don't doubt actively teach secularism, depending on the classroom/teacher/building.

                            Secondly, I wholly reject that children who learn math or reading outside a "Christian worldview" are failing, or in failing schools. People even have inherent morality without knowing God; the Bible says it was "written on their heart". We are all of us made in His image, made to learn. It's a gift--common grace--to learn. You can absolutely learn the joy of playing an instrument, working a sum, all of those things, and even touch on their profundity and beauty, without knowing God, even outside His worldview.

                            The term "failing" has many definitions and "failing does not solely mean that academic grades drop. Nor does it mean that schools fail financially, although that is certainly a concern and one that may influence some to home school. I suspect the chief definition of "failing" among home schoolers is philosophical, not academic and that while my two children probably could have received a stellar academic education in reading, writing, and math in one of the most prominent school systems in the country (possibly the world), but they would not have been provided an adequate education in worldview and meaning because this is a place public schools often either avoid or teach contrary to the views and standards my wife and I wished to teach our children. And... this is often true unwittingly because while many, if not most, teachers are Christian in worldview they are often unaware of how fundamental worldview is in education.
                            So you just mean failing to teach the Christian worldview through every subject. That is true, and that is a reason for homeschooling. But that does not mean schools are really "failing", does it? IF it make a chocolate cake recipe, can I call it a failure because it doesn't taste like lemon cream pie?

                            The "war" is unavoidable, Wendy. The only remaining question is will this conflict 1) be civil, 2) take place in the market place of ideas, and 3) on our ground or theirs because the battleground is the children not the public schools. The schools are simply one of many tools and as long as they keep people thinking the schools are the battle ground we're showing up in the wrong place.
                            The war is totally avoidable, though perhaps the battle of ideas is not. Homeschooling or public schooling are not essentials of the faith. Therefore, it is nowhere near worth a war between Believers.

                            "In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity."--Augustine (probably)
                            One thing have I asked of the LORD... that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze upon the beauty of the LORD and to inquire in his temple.--Psalm 27:4

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by WendyWrites
                              But that does not mean schools are really "failing", does it?
                              Yes, it does mean schools are really failing. They are failing many people in many ways. They are failing most Christians in many ways. However...

                              I read more attribution errors, piles of fallacy, and a few tou violations so, having said my piece and received the misrepresentations, fallacy, and tou violations in response, I'm going to move on.


                              Yes, the war is totally avoidable; the "war" is not. No, homeschooling is not an essential of the faith but no one here has said it is. When Christians begin practicing the essential practices (practices, not doctrines) the "war" will be over. 1 Cor. 11:18-19, 1 Cor. 13:2, 2 Cor. 12:20
                              All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                              “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X