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Fundancer, SG and common ancestry

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  • Fundancer, SG and common ancestry

    A place for Fundancer to ask questions about http://www.evolutionarymodel.com/ervs.htm
    "I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." - Charles Babbage.

    "Reality rules. Honor the truth." - John A. "Chemist" Steele.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Spinoza's Ghost View Post
    A place for Fundancer to ask questions about http://www.evolutionarymodel.com/ervs.htm
    I looked at your thread it means nothing.
    "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not:
    behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah,
    the Root of David,
    hath prevailed to open the book,
    and to loose the seven seals thereof." Revelation 5:5

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Fundancer View Post
      I looked at your thread it means nothing.
      Tell me the first thing that you do not understand. I will do my best to explain it to you.
      "I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." - Charles Babbage.

      "Reality rules. Honor the truth." - John A. "Chemist" Steele.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Spinoza's Ghost View Post
        Tell me the first thing that you do not understand. I will do my best to explain it to you.
        Look it doesn't matter how many layers of ERVs are shared with Chimps. It does not mean common ancestory. Get over it. It is nice you find similarities. Big Deal! So the Creator used simliar patterns when creating the Chimp and man. It is logical that there would be closely aligned because of the shapes are similar. It does not mean they evolved. Now give it up.
        "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not:
        behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah,
        the Root of David,
        hath prevailed to open the book,
        and to loose the seven seals thereof." Revelation 5:5

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Fundancer View Post
          Look it doesn't matter how many layers of ERVs are shared with Chimps. It does not mean common ancestory. Get over it. It is nice you find similarities. Big Deal! So the Creator used simliar patterns when creating the Chimp and man. It is logical that there would be closely aligned because of the shapes are similar. It does not mean they evolved. Now give it up.
          Retroviruses are inserted into the DNA by an enzyme called integrase. Integrase does not target specific locations in the DNA. The only possible explanation for retroviral DNA in so many common locations is that they are there by inheritance. In each case, integrase inserted the retroviral DNA into an ancestral cell, and we have all inherited the insertion.

          We are not talking about "layers of ERVs" by the way. The article talks of "layers of evidence". Please read the article carefully and with an open mind before coming to any conclusions about it. If there is anything else you don't understand, feel free to ask me. I will do my best to explain.
          Last edited by Spinoza's Ghost; 11-11-13, 11:10 PM.
          "I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." - Charles Babbage.

          "Reality rules. Honor the truth." - John A. "Chemist" Steele.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Spinoza's Ghost View Post
            Retroviruses are inserted into the DNA by an enzyme called integrase. Integrase does not target specific locations in the DNA. The only possible explanation for retroviral DNA in so many common locations is that they are there by inheritance. In each case, integrase inserted the retroviral DNA into an ancestral cell, and we have all inherited the insertion.

            We are not talking about "layers of ERVs" by the way. The article talks of "layers of evidence". Please read the article carefully and with an open mind before coming to any conclusions about it. If there is anything else you don't understand, feel free to ask me. I will do my best to explain.
            Same difference.................. The key phrase here is "the only possible explanation". There are probably many explanations and you just haven't come up with them or the right one. It is the only possible explanation because the science community is ignorant of any other explanation. Good show! The efforts of evolutionists are to prove evolution, not find the truth. We have the truth and evolutionists have turn the truth into a lie. There is no true theory of evolution. It is a theory that has never been proven.

            When you want to present the honest truth let me know and I will listen.
            Last edited by Fundancer; 11-12-13, 01:39 AM.
            "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not:
            behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah,
            the Root of David,
            hath prevailed to open the book,
            and to loose the seven seals thereof." Revelation 5:5

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Fundancer View Post
              Same difference.................. The key phrase here is "the only possible explanation". There are probably many explanations and you just haven't come up with them or the right one. It is the only possible explanation because the science community is ignorant of any other explanation. Good show! The efforts of evolutionists are to prove evolution, not find the truth. We have the truth and evolutionists have turn the truth into a lie. There is no true theory of evolution. It is a theory that has never been proven.

              When you want to present the honest truth let me know and I will listen.
              There are probably many explanations as to why night follows day, but only one that makes any sense with respect to all the evidence.

              EDIT PER MOD

              Now if you think any of the evidence presented in the article is incorrect, or if you can come up with an alternative explanation for it that is at least as good as the blindingly obvious one, you are welcome to say so, but you must give your reasons, not just spout your unsubstantiated opinions.

              For starters, can you explain why ERVs code for reverse transcriptase and integrase, or don't you think that they do?
              Last edited by 4Him; 11-12-13, 10:09 AM.
              "I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." - Charles Babbage.

              "Reality rules. Honor the truth." - John A. "Chemist" Steele.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Spinoza's Ghost View Post
                There are probably many explanations as to why night follows day, but only one that makes any sense with respect to all the evidence.

                Please do not call me a liar, and dishonest, Fundancer. It is unchristian, and it is not tolerated on these forums.

                Now if you think any of the evidence presented in the article is incorrect, or if you can come up with an alternative explanation for it that is at least as good as the blindingly obvious one, you are welcome to say so, but you must give your reasons, not just spout your unsubstantiated opinions.

                For starters, can you explain why ERVs code for reverse transcriptase and integrase, of don't you think that they do?
                I am not a scientist and I have no idea why ERVs code for reverse transcriptase and intergrase. This only do I know, the lastest guess by evolutionists is not fact.
                "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not:
                behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah,
                the Root of David,
                hath prevailed to open the book,
                and to loose the seven seals thereof." Revelation 5:5

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Fundancer View Post
                  I am not a scientist and I have no idea why ERVs code for reverse transcriptase and intergrase. This only do I know, the lastest guess by evolutionists is not fact.
                  What makes you say it is a guess? Is night following day because of the earth's rotation just a guess, in your view?
                  "I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." - Charles Babbage.

                  "Reality rules. Honor the truth." - John A. "Chemist" Steele.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Spinoza's Ghost View Post
                    What makes you say it is a guess? Is night following day because of the earth's rotation just a guess, in your view?
                    As long was the earth turns on it's axis we will continue to have day following night and night following day. Of course, the sun and moon must continue in their place. A process set in motion as describe in Genesis 1.
                    "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not:
                    behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah,
                    the Root of David,
                    hath prevailed to open the book,
                    and to loose the seven seals thereof." Revelation 5:5

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Fundancer View Post
                      As long was the earth turns on it's axis we will continue to have day following night and night following day. Of course, the sun and moon must continue in their place. A process set in motion as describe in Genesis 1.
                      And as long as we have retroviruses they will continue to integrate DNA copies of their genomes into ours. Did you know that endogenization is an ongoing process in koalas right now? Direct observation, like night following day.

                      Now why did you say it was just a guess?
                      "I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." - Charles Babbage.

                      "Reality rules. Honor the truth." - John A. "Chemist" Steele.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Spinoza's Ghost View Post
                        And as long as we have retroviruses they will continue to integrate DNA copies of their genomes into ours. Did you know that endogenization is an ongoing process in koalas right now? Direct observation, like night following day.

                        Now why did you say it was just a guess?
                        I didn't say the process was a guess. I said the conclusion was a guess. Please don't misrepresent what I say. We have some six thousand years of observable day and nights, night and days. We do not have 6 thousand years of retroviruses integrating DNA copies of their genomes into ours. You only suppose that is so. Or, give me the list of folks who have been observing this for 6,000 years.
                        Last edited by Fundancer; 11-12-13, 03:11 AM.
                        "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not:
                        behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah,
                        the Root of David,
                        hath prevailed to open the book,
                        and to loose the seven seals thereof." Revelation 5:5

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Fundancer View Post
                          I didn't say the process was a guess. I said the conclusion was a guess. Please don't misrepresent what I say. We have some six thousand years of observable day and nights, night and days. We do not have 6 thousand years of retroviruses integrating DNA copies of their genomes into ours. You only suppose that is so. Or, give me the list of folks who have been observing this for 6,000 years.
                          Please do not accuse me of misrepresenting what you say. You said,
                          Originally posted by Fundancer View Post
                          I am not a scientist and I have no idea why ERVs code for reverse transcriptase and intergrase. This only do I know, the lastest guess by evolutionists is not fact.
                          We have approximately 200,000 ERVs and ERV remnants in our genomes. So do chimps. All but around 300 are in corresponding locations in our respective genomes. This is not a supposition. It is a simple fact. It is also a simple fact that reverse transcriptase transcribes RNA into DNA, and that integrase splices stretches of DNA into already existing DNA, but at no specific locations. It is a simple fact that this is how retroviruses reproduce. It is a simple fact that retroviruses can enter the germ-line by inserting their DNA into the DNA of germ-line cells. The conclusion that corresponding ERVs are due to common ancestry is as secure as the conclusion that night and day are caused by the sun shining on a rotating earth. The fact that you do not like such a simple, obvious conclusion is of no importance.
                          "I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." - Charles Babbage.

                          "Reality rules. Honor the truth." - John A. "Chemist" Steele.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            =Spinoza's Ghost;4954287]Please do not accuse me of misrepresenting what you say. You said,
                            Yes, you misrepresented what I said. This is what I said.

                            "I am not a scientist and I have no idea why ERVs code for reverse transcriptase and intergrase. This only do I know, the lastest guess by evolutionists is not fact."

                            I repeat:

                            "I didn't say the process was a guess. I said the conclusion was a guess. Please don't misrepresent what I say. We have some six thousand years of observable day and nights, night and days. We do not have 6 thousand years of retroviruses integrating DNA copies of their genomes into ours. You only suppose that is so. Or, give me the list of folks who have been observing this for 6,000 years."


                            We have approximately 200,000 ERVs and ERV remnants in our genomes. So do chimps.

                            So, what? Chimps eat banana's and so do humans. It doesn't mean they are related. The number of ERVs and ERV remnants in our genomes that relate to those in a Chimp is nice to know but does not imply common descent.

                            All but around 300 are in corresponding locations in our respective genomes. This is not a supposition. It is a simple fact. It is also a simple fact that reverse transcriptase transcribes RNA into DNA, and that integrase splices stretches of DNA into already existing DNA, but at no specific locations.
                            Wonderful. This does not imply or prove common descent. If anything it proves a same designer and that when man sinned the animals were cursed along with man.

                            It is a simple fact that this is how retroviruses reproduce. It is a simple fact that retroviruses can enter the germ-line by inserting their DNA into the DNA of germ-line cells.
                            I don't know one way or the other. It is what you say.

                            The conclusion that corresponding ERVs are due to common ancestry is as secure as the conclusion that night and day are caused by the sun shining on a rotating earth.
                            On this we know there is not agreement and is a conclusion assumed to sell common ancestry which isn't going to happen.


                            The fact that you do not like such a simple, obvious conclusion is of no importance.
                            Please don't misrepresent me, again! If anything the facts you have presented indicate a common designer and curse which totally supports the Genesis account.
                            "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not:
                            behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah,
                            the Root of David,
                            hath prevailed to open the book,
                            and to loose the seven seals thereof." Revelation 5:5

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Fundancer View Post
                              Yes, you misrepresented what I said. This is what I said.

                              "I am not a scientist and I have no idea why ERVs code for reverse transcriptase and intergrase. This only do I know, the lastest guess by evolutionists is not fact."

                              I repeat:

                              "I didn't say the process was a guess. I said the conclusion was a guess. Please don't misrepresent what I say. We have some six thousand years of observable day and nights, night and days. We do not have 6 thousand years of retroviruses integrating DNA copies of their genomes into ours. You only suppose that is so. Or, give me the list of folks who have been observing this for 6,000 years."





                              So, what? Chimps eat banana's and so do humans. It doesn't mean they are related. The number of ERVs and ERV remnants in our genomes that relate to those in a Chimp is nice to know but does not imply common descent.



                              Wonderful. This does not imply or prove common descent. If anything it proves a same designer and that when man sinned the animals were cursed along with man.



                              I don't know one way or the other. It is what you say.



                              On this we know there is not agreement and is a conclusion assumed to sell common ancestry which isn't going to happen.




                              Please don't misrepresent me, again! If anything the facts you have presented indicate a common designer and curse which totally supports the Genesis account.
                              Fundancer, you are not facing up to the facts. An obvious conclusion, based on all the evidence, is not a "guess" - unless you count night follows day as a "guess". You called it a guess. I am not misrepresenting you. I quoted you verbatim. Let's dispense with silly and fruitless word games and pointless, empty accusations, shall we? Can't we behave like grown-ups?

                              200,000 ERVs in corresponding locations in both species is extremely powerful evidence for common ancestry. Saying "So, what?" does not address that evidence. You have admitted that you have no alternative explanation to that provided by endogenization. In science, we go with the simplest explanation that accounts for all the evidence and is contradicted by none. Therefore, you have already conceded the scientific case. What remains are your groundless feelings of distaste. As I said before, these are insignificant and irrelevant.

                              ERVs cannot be designed to be in common locations. They are inserted by integrase, which does not target specific DNA loci. We've been over this before. Please try to keep up. Remember, if there is anything you don't understand, or wish to question, that's fine. That's the point of the thread. But please don't grandstand. Get to know the evidence and the reasoning. That's the only way to make progress.

                              If you doubt that retroviruses can enter the germline by integrating with the DNA of germline cells, write to the authors of this paper, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2077286/ and ask them any questions you like. I'm sure they will be more than willing to help you.

                              A conclusion is not an assumption. You are welcome to point out where unwarranted assumptions are being made, but unless you can, you are merely making unsubstantiated slurs, which is hardly honest of you.

                              Regarding a common designer, why would a common designer use different syncytins in different placental lineages? Common design, common designer, different design, whimsical designer is hardly a convincing argument, is it? Is there any phenomena that cannot be "explained" by saying an all-powerful entity could have done anything at all for reasons we cannot comprehend? As they say, keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out.
                              Last edited by Spinoza's Ghost; 11-12-13, 01:34 PM.
                              "I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." - Charles Babbage.

                              "Reality rules. Honor the truth." - John A. "Chemist" Steele.

                              Comment

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