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Becoming a Catholic not a good idea?

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  • Originally posted by JCiL View Post
    I think repentance onto salvation is a once of event. You are now born again, and sealed with the Holy Spirit. You cannot be born again and again and again. You can go to God confess and ask Him with a sincere repentance to forgive you of any sin you "commit" after you are born again. This restores you, to the "right" relationship with God. As I said earlier, Jesus continues to intercede for us with the Father. I do not think this stops, even if we fall away, for we are His. God therefore will not judge born again believers for sin, but for reward.

    So in my opinion, the word repentance, takes on a different context for born again believers, when it comes to confessing sin before God.
    So it sounds as though you are saying there are two repentances, not one: There is the repentance that saves you and me, which is a one-time decision, and then there is the repentance that does not save you and me, which is an on-going process that continues to restore us to a right relationship with God. Since the kind of repentance that does not save us is the kind of repentance that restores our relationship with God, does this mean that the other kind of repentance (the kind that does save us) is the kind of repentance that does not create a right relationship with God? I don't think you do mean this. I guess, then my question is this: How do these two kinds of repentance differ from one another? What makes one a repentance that saves and the other a repentance that is useless to save us from Hell?

    Faith:
    1. We have "saving" faith, that comes from hearing the testimony of Jesus Christ. This faith reconciles believers with Christ, and we are placed in right standing with God.

    2. We have faith in God's provision, His promises, The Holy Spirit in us, that leads us on a road of sanctification etc.

    3. We have the gift of faith as seen in 1 Cor. 12, and in Romans 12 we see that there is a measure of faith given by God.
    Are these two or more different kinds of faiths, or are they three aspects of the one faith that saves us? I'm thinking they are at least two faiths, not one. For (2) could describe an on-going process, while (1) could describe a one-time decision. I suppose (3) could be an aspect of both saving faith and the non-saving faith. So I'm thinking you believe that just as there are two repentances, so too there are two faiths--one that is a one-time decision that saves us, and one which is an ongoing process that draws us closer to Christ and helps us trust and obey Him more and more. Is this what you are thinking? If so, my question is similar: How do these two faiths differ from each other? What makes one of these faiths powerful to save us, and the other faith useless to save us from Hell?
    Last edited by spockrates; 05-16-12, 02:36 PM.
    "If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains (however improbable) must be the truth."
    —Spock

    Comment


    • Originally posted by spockrates View Post




      I hear what you are saying. The concern I have is this: My gut tells me I don't want to be Catholic. I like the worship music at Evangelical churches. I like carrying my own Bible to church and turning to the same page in my Bible from which the pastor is teaching. I like not having to try to figure out when to stand, kneel and sit during a worship service. Don't get me wrong--I've heard good biblical teaching at Mass, and have even been nearly moved to tears during such, just like I've experienced in Evangelical churches. The style of worship, however is not something I like as much.

      That being said, I don't know if desire is a good determiner of truth. I mean, feelings ebb and flow like a tide. I'm not so sure my gut can be trusted. Case in point: I've spoken to many a Mormon who tells me to know if what the Book of Mormon is true, I need to pray and read it and if I have a strong feeling of conviction it is true, then it is. They then tell me they have this strong feeling, so they know it is true. Yet, you and I know it is not--not because we feel it is not, but because the objective evidence tells us otherwise.

      So when you say I need to go where I feel the Spirit is leading me, are you saying to trust my gut feelings alone? or are you saying my feelings will confirm what the objective evidence demonstrates the truth to be? How do I know when my feelings are caused by the Holy Spirit and when they are just my own?
      That is difficult to answer.

      I know that God supernaturally lead me to a place of worship, and from the second I entered, I just knew that that was exactly where God wanted me at that moment. We can and must spiritually discern. It is not so much as feeling. God does speak to us in that strong quiet voice, through His Spirit. You know when something is wrong throug conviction.

      The enemy talks in a louder almost more convincing voice, anf if we react we feel condemnation.

      Conviction is from our Father
      Condemnation, comes from the enemy.

      Discern what is truth and what is false. There are truths in the RCC it is undeniable, and the creeds tell the story. What they have added to the creeds, is what you need to discern if it is from God, or if it is developed through the "doctrines" of man, claiming oral tradition as their source, years after the original apostles.
      (Rom 8:38 - 39) For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by spockrates View Post
        So it sounds as though you are saying there are two repentances, not one: There is the repentance that saves you and me, which is a one-time decision, and then there is the repentance that does not save you and me, which is an on-going process that continues to restore us to a right relationship with God. Since the kind of repentance that does not save us is the kind of repentance that restores our relationship with God, does this mean that the other kind of repentance (the kind that does save us) is the kind of repentance that does not create a right relationship with God? I don't think you do mean this. I guess, then my question is this: How do these two kinds of repentance differ from one another? What makes one a repentance that saves and the other a repentance that is useless to save us from Hell?



        Are these two or more different kinds of faiths, or are they three aspects of the one faith that saves us? I'm thinking they are at least two faiths, not one. For (2) could describe an on-going process, while (1) could describe a one-time decision. I suppose (3) could be an aspect of both saving faith and the non-saving faith. So I'm thinking you believe that just as there are two repentances, so too there are two faiths--one that is a one-time decision that saves us, and one which is an ongoing process that draws us closer to Christ and helps us trust and obey Him more and more. Is this what you are thinking? If so, my question is similar: How do these two faiths differ from each other? What makes one of these faiths powerful to save us, and the other faith useless to save us from Hell?
        I think it boils down to this:

        All humans are seperated from God, because of sin. We are not reconciled. We need reconcilliation, and that is why Christ lived, died, was raised and ascended. God promises reconcilliation through Christ. Now the gospel is the good news that we can be reconciled to God. Upon hearing the gospel we are convicted of our need for reconcilliation through Christ. We immediately realize our state as completely lost before God, and we are anxious to be reconciled. We admit , our state, and we are reconciled when we give ourselves to God to reconcile us. This includes repentance (turning away from the old [sin]. At that instant we are reconciled because we have faith in the sacrifice of Christ. This is a once of event:
        For it is impossible, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

        We cannot be restored to this "kind" of repentance again. It is done.
        Are we fallable, and will we fail God from time to time... of course, and we do not even want to do it, but it happens.... that is why we as believers has the unmerrited favor of God, and we confess and repent of our shortcomings to Him, and He works in us to do works that glorify Him. This sanctification is a lifelong process, and our Father is ever in us, helping and guiding as we walk with Him.
        (Rom 8:38 - 39) For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by JCiL View Post
          That is difficult to answer.
          The best questions (those that lead to the most beneficial wisdom) usually are!



          I know that God supernaturally lead me to a place of worship, and from the second I entered, I just knew that that was exactly where God wanted me at that moment. We can and must spiritually discern. It is not so much as feeling. God does speak to us in that strong quiet voice, through His Spirit. You know when something is wrong throug conviction.

          The enemy talks in a louder almost more convincing voice, anf if we react we feel condemnation.

          Conviction is from our Father
          Condemnation, comes from the enemy.

          Discern what is truth and what is false. There are truths in the RCC it is undeniable, and the creeds tell the story. What they have added to the creeds, is what you need to discern if it is from God, or if it is developed through the "doctrines" of man, claiming oral tradition as their source, years after the original apostles.
          Yes, I've heard that condemnation is not from God, but I wonder if that is true. Consider what David (who God called a man after His own heart) sang:

          10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

          11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

          12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and renew a right spirit within me.

          (Psalms 51)


          Here the man after God's own heart was expressing his genuine feeling of condemnation for his own actions. This feeling was from God, I think--or at least from the conscience God gave him. Consider also Paul's words:


          15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners —of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.

          (1 Timothy 1)


          Here Paul is expressing similar feelings of condemnation for his own sinful behavior. Regret for one's disobedience to God is a feeling from God, I think. So how can a lack of such feeling be proof that it is the Holy Spirit leading me, rather than my own spirit, or some other spirit?
          Last edited by spockrates; 05-17-12, 01:11 PM.
          "If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains (however improbable) must be the truth."
          —Spock

          Comment


          • Originally posted by JCiL View Post
            I think it boils down to this:

            All humans are seperated from God, because of sin. We are not reconciled. We need reconcilliation, and that is why Christ lived, died, was raised and ascended. God promises reconcilliation through Christ. Now the gospel is the good news that we can be reconciled to God. Upon hearing the gospel we are convicted of our need for reconcilliation through Christ. We immediately realize our state as completely lost before God, and we are anxious to be reconciled. We admit , our state, and we are reconciled when we give ourselves to God to reconcile us. This includes repentance (turning away from the old [sin]. At that instant we are reconciled because we have faith in the sacrifice of Christ. This is a once of event:
            For it is impossible, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

            We cannot be restored to this "kind" of repentance again. It is done.
            Are we fallable, and will we fail God from time to time... of course, and we do not even want to do it, but it happens.... that is why we as believers has the unmerrited favor of God, and we confess and repent of our shortcomings to Him, and He works in us to do works that glorify Him. This sanctification is a lifelong process, and our Father is ever in us, helping and guiding as we walk with Him.
            But have you answered my question? How does the repentance that saves (which we have immediately prior to salvation) differ from the repentance that does not save (which we have many times after salvation)? You say that the repentance that saves us is turning away from our old sinful habits, but it appears that the repentance that does not save us is also turning away from our old sinful habits. So how can we say they are not one and the same repentance? How can we say the repentance that occurs prior to salvation (which is turning away from our old sinful habits) never happens again? Don't we continue to turn away from our old sinful habits throughout our walk with Christ?
            Last edited by spockrates; 05-17-12, 01:01 PM.
            "If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains (however improbable) must be the truth."
            —Spock

            Comment


            • Originally posted by spockrates View Post
              The best questions (those that lead to the most beneficial wisdom) usually are!





              Yes, I've heard that condemnation is not from God, but I wonder if that is true. Consider what David (who God called a man after His own heart) sang:

              10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

              11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

              12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and renew a right spirit within me.

              (Psalms 51)


              Here the man after God's own heart was expressing his genuine feeling of condemnation for his own actions. This feeling was from God, I think--or at least from the conscience God gave him. Consider also Paul's words:


              15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners —of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.

              (1 Timothy 1)


              Here Paul is expressing similar feelings of condemnation for his own sinful behavior. Regret for one's disobedience to God is a feeling from God, I think. So how can a lack of such feeling be proof that it is the Holy Spirit leading me, rather than my own spirit, or some other spirit?
              Before salvation, one is condemned not so?
              After salvation:
              (Rom 8:1) There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

              You condemn yourself, if you do not believe these words that Paul wrote. Being convicted of sin, is something entirely different.
              (Rom 8:38 - 39) For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by spockrates View Post
                But have you answered my question? How does the repentance that saves (which we have immediately prior to salvation) differ from the repentance that does not save (which we have many times after salvation)? You say that the repentance that saves us is turning away from our old sinful habits, but it appears that the repentance that does not save us is also turning away from our old sinful habits. So how can we say they are not one and the same repentance? How can we say the repentance that occurs prior to salvation (which is turning away from our old sinful habits) never happens again? Don't we continue to turn away from our old sinful habits throughout our walk with Christ?
                Repent and be baptized. This is once of, not to be repeated, for you would have to be baptized continiously as well.

                Repentance after salvation differs, for you are not repenting unto salvation all the time. Salvation is a once off event, we work out our salvation, through God working through is for His glory.
                (Rom 8:38 - 39) For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JCiL View Post
                  Before salvation, one is condemned not so?
                  After salvation:
                  (Rom 8:1) There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

                  You condemn yourself, if you do not believe these words that Paul wrote. Being convicted of sin, is something entirely different.
                  I think I see now. Condemning oneself does not mean feeling convicted of the wrongness of one's thoughts, words, or deeds. Condemning oneself means feeling that one is no longer Heaven bound. I think that is what you mean.

                  The response both Catholics and many Protestants would give: "Of course, no one who is in Jesus would ever be condemned! God forbid! But we're not suggesting that. What we are saying is that only those not in Jesus would be condemned, and we're sure you agree. The disagreement we have is not with Romans 8, it's with your idea that no one who is in Jesus could ever become not in Jesus. Just as friends can become enemies, and spouses can divorce, so too believers can tragically walk away from Christ. To convince us that what you say is true, you must produce a passage of scripture that says no one in a relationship with God has the possibility of ever getting out of that relationship."
                  Last edited by spockrates; 05-18-12, 04:48 PM.
                  "If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains (however improbable) must be the truth."
                  —Spock

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JCiL View Post
                    Repent and be baptized. This is once of, not to be repeated, for you would have to be baptized continiously as well.
                    Yes, that's a good point. I mean, I've been in Protestant churches where people who had been baptized as adults do get baptized again, but this is not so in the Catholic faith. Baptism should be done by a Catholic pastor only once, they teach. I wonder why. I wonder if the reason for this is that they believe the Holy Spirit is received at baptism and, somehow, never leaves the person, even when she becomes unrepentant. Hmmm.

                    Repentance after salvation differs, for you are not repenting unto salvation all the time.
                    So what makes repenting onto salvation different from repenting after salvation? Is it the thing of which the person repents? For example, is the repentance onto salvation merely a repenting of one's unbelief (or lack of faith) in Christ? Is that the kind of repentance that saves?

                    Salvation is a once off event, we work out our salvation, through God working through is for His glory.
                    I find it interesting that you'd choose that verse. Is Paul saying we should work out of our salvation, or work out our salvation? Working out (at least in the United States) is a term that speaks of a process, rather than a one-time event. For example, if I work out at the gym, it's something I do again and again. If I'm working out a problem, it's something I am currently working on solving, but have not solved, yet. What do you think Paul intend to say, here?

                    ...10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
                    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
                    11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
                    to the glory of God the Father.

                    12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

                    (Philippians 2)


                    What does it mean to obey God and work out one's salvation with fear and trembling (verse 12)?
                    Last edited by spockrates; 05-18-12, 05:16 PM.
                    "If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains (however improbable) must be the truth."
                    —Spock

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by spockrates View Post
                      I think I see now. Condemning oneself does not mean feeling convicted of the wrongness of one's thoughts, words, or deeds. Condemning oneself means feeling that one is no longer Heaven bound. I think that is what you mean.

                      The response both Catholics and many Protestants would give: "Of course, no one who is in Jesus would ever be condemned! God forbid! But we're not suggesting that. What we are saying is that only those not in Jesus would be condemned, and we're sure you agree. The disagreement we have is not with Romans 8, it's with your idea that no one who is in Jesus could ever become not in Jesus. Just as friends can become enemies, and spouses can divorce, so too believers can tragically walk away from Christ. To convince us that what you say is true, you must produce a passage of scripture that says no one in a relationship with God has the possibility of ever getting out of that relationship."
                      (Joh 10:28) I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
                      (Joh 10:29) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

                      This scripture is clear. "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish...."
                      This is a promise not from a man to man, nor from a man to a woman, nor from a human friend to a friend, but from Almighty God.

                      He GIVES eternal life, and they will never perish. I think it has been established in our discussion that eternal life is given, the day you are born again, and you are sealed with the Holy Spirit.
                      So how can you ever perish, if eternal life is given by Christ the redeemer?
                      (Rom 8:38 - 39) For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by spockrates View Post
                        Yes, that's a good point. I mean, I've been in Protestant churches where people who had been baptized as adults do get baptized again, but this is not so in the Catholic faith. Baptism should be done by a Catholic pastor only once, they teach. I wonder why. I wonder if the reason for this is that they believe the Holy Spirit is received at baptism and, somehow, never leaves the person, even when she becomes unrepentant. Hmmm.



                        So what makes repenting onto salvation different from repenting after salvation? Is it the thing of which the person repents? For example, is the repentance onto salvation merely a repenting of one's unbelief (or lack of faith) in Christ? Is that the kind of repentance that saves?



                        I find it interesting that you'd choose that verse. Is Paul saying we should work out of our salvation, or work out our salvation? Working out (at least in the United States) is a term that speaks of a process, rather than a one-time event. For example, if I work out at the gym, it's something I do again and again. If I'm working out a problem, it's something I am currently working on solving, but have not solved, yet. What do you think Paul intend to say, here?

                        ...10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
                        in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
                        11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
                        to the glory of God the Father.

                        12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

                        (Philippians 2)


                        What does it mean to obey God and work out one's salvation with fear and trembling (verse 12)?
                        God has given us the free gift of salvation not so?

                        What do you do with your free gift? I believe that we have to be stewards with what God has given us - salvation.

                        If you look at verse 13, I believe the key lies within.
                        13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

                        Can you see that it is actually God who works in us (this is the Almighty, and we have reverance for Him and we fear Him), so we have to be good stewards and allow God to work in us so we may WILL and ACT according to His good purpose.

                        So God expects us to take stewardship, and we should honestly seek His face, in these things.
                        (Rom 8:38 - 39) For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ignatius
                          Mark 16:15
                          Yes.

                          Do we go out and preach for our glory?

                          Ps. This is a private debate forum, and I would like to debate you in this thread, but it is against the rules. If you start a thread, about anything I wrote, in the RCC forum, I will take part, or we can request our own debate.
                          (Rom 8:38 - 39) For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JCiL View Post
                            (Joh 10:28) I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
                            (Joh 10:29) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

                            This scripture is clear. "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish...."
                            This is a promise not from a man to man, nor from a man to a woman, nor from a human friend to a friend, but from Almighty God.

                            He GIVES eternal life, and they will never perish. I think it has been established in our discussion that eternal life is given, the day you are born again, and you are sealed with the Holy Spirit.
                            So how can you ever perish, if eternal life is given by Christ the redeemer?
                            Sorry for taking so long to respond. Other things have kept me away.

                            In response to your reply, I'd ask this: But did we not agree earlier that Chris Himself is eternal life? Did we not also agree that only those who are connected to Christ continue to have eternal life? I think we also agree that if (and only if) it were possible for one to let go of Christ, He would not cease to be eternal life. The difference of opinion is over whether letting go is possible. You are certain it is not, and I'm not so certain.

                            Perhaps an analogy will help show why I have some doubts: Consider a person water skiing. If she were to let go of the towrope and sink into the ocean, the rope would not cease to be what it is. So too, if someone were to let go of Christ and sink deep into sin, Christ would not cease to be who He is. Now one might say that the boat driver gives the water skier the towrope and no one holding onto the rope while the boat is in motion will sink into the water. Even though this be true, it would also be true that no one who lets go of the rope would continue to stay above the waterline. The same might be true of Christ: No one who holds onto Him will ever perish, but it would also be true that anyone who lets go of Him (if that were possible) would indeed perish. Jesus' statement in John's gospel would not be proven false by anyone who lets go. For He was not speaking of them. He was speaking only of the ones who would continue to hold onto Him. That's how someone can perish if Christ gives them eternal life--by letting go of it and Him. Jesus might actually have been saying that only those who accept and keep the gift do not perish.

                            So do you see how Catholics and some Protestants (such as Methodists and Evangelicals) believe what they do? The disagreement they have with you is not over John 10 and Romans 8; it's over the idea that no one can ever let go. John 10 and Romans 8 do not necessarily say no one can ever let go of Christ--though they do say that no one who holds on will ever perish. To prove them wrong, you and I still need a passage of scripture that clearly says it is impossible for anyone to let go of Christ. I'm not sure such a passage exists that clearly says no one can ever let go, so scripture remains ambiguous on this point. How then do I determine who has the correct interpretation of John 10 and Romans 8, since either interpretation might be true?
                            Last edited by spockrates; 05-23-12, 01:27 PM.
                            "If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains (however improbable) must be the truth."
                            —Spock

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JCiL View Post
                              God has given us the free gift of salvation not so?
                              Yes, that is so!



                              What do you do with your free gift? I believe that we have to be stewards with what God has given us - salvation.
                              Agreed.

                              If you look at verse 13, I believe the key lies within.
                              13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

                              Can you see that it is actually God who works in us (this is the Almighty, and we have reverance for Him and we fear Him), so we have to be good stewards and allow God to work in us so we may WILL and ACT according to His good purpose.

                              So God expects us to take stewardship, and we should honestly seek His face, in these things.
                              So how do you know that God working in you to will and act according to His purpose is not the salvation He has freely given us? How do you know this sanctification is not the way God uses to save us from Hell?
                              "If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains (however improbable) must be the truth."
                              —Spock

                              Comment


                              • I appreciate your time and thoughtful answers, JCiL! Maybe we can do it again, sometime.

                                "If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains (however improbable) must be the truth."
                                —Spock

                                Comment

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