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As most of you are aware, we had a crash to forums and were down for over two days a while back. We did have to do an upgrade to the vbulletin software to fix the forums and that has created changes, VB no longer provide the hybrid or threaded forums. There are some issues/changes to the forums we are not able to fix or change. Also note the link address change, please let friends and posters know of the changed link to the forums. For now this is the only link available, https://forums.carm.org/vb5/ but if clicking on forum on carm.org homepage it will now send you to this link. (edited to add https: now working.

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Diane S
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Becoming a Catholic not a good idea?

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  • In response to your reply, I'd ask this: But did we not agree earlier that Chris Himself is eternal life? Did we not also agree that only those who are connected to Christ continue to have eternal life?
    No, I don't think that was agreed between us, rather I asserted that God will bring anyone who "drifts" away back to Him.

    I think we also agree that if (and only if) it were possible for one to let go of Christ, He would not cease to be eternal life. The difference of opinion is over whether letting go is possible. You are certain it is not, and I'm not so certain.

    Perhaps an analogy will help show why I have some doubts: Consider a person water skiing. If she were to let go of the towrope and sink into the ocean, the rope would not cease to be what it is. So too, if someone were to let go of Christ and sink deep into sin, Christ would not cease to be who He is. Now one might say that the boat driver gives the water skier the towrope and no one holding onto the rope while the boat is in motion will sink into the water. Even though this be true, it would also be true that no one who lets go of the rope would continue to stay above the waterline. The same might be true of Christ: No one who holds onto Him will ever perish, but it would also be true that anyone who lets go of Him (if that were possible) would indeed perish. Jesus' statement in John's gospel would not be proven false by anyone who lets go. For He was not speaking of them. He was speaking only of the ones who would continue to hold onto Him. That's how someone can perish if Christ gives them eternal life--by letting go of it and Him. Jesus might actually have been saying that only those who accept and keep the gift do not perish.
    In the parable of the sower we see that the word falls on certain types of soil. Who would you think are the born again amongst those who the seed fall upon?

    So do you see how Catholics and some Protestants (such as Methodists and Evangelicals) believe what they do?
    I see it yes. My biggest concern about this theology remains, that it takes away from God's sovereignity. It is fact, that God predestines, justifies, and glorifies, before the foundation of the earth. How will He let go of those?

    The disagreement they have with you is not over John 10 and Romans 8; it's over the idea that no one can ever let go. John 10 and Romans 8 do not necessarily say no one can ever let go of Christ--though they do say that no one who holds on will ever perish. To prove them wrong, you and I still need a passage of scripture that clearly says it is impossible for anyone to let go of Christ. I'm not sure such a passage exists that clearly says no one can ever let go, so scripture remains ambiguous on this point. How then do I determine who has the correct interpretation of John 10 and Romans 8, since either interpretation might be true?
    Since we started this discussion, I have asked many people directly, if it would be possible for them personally to let go of God completely and utterly. So far no one has come back and said yes, It would be possible for me (personally) to completely and utterly deny Christ as my Lord and Saviour.

    I mean, even under the threat of death and torture, will you deny Him, in your innermost being?
    (Rom 8:38 - 39) For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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    • So how do you know that God working in you to will and act according to His purpose is not the salvation He has freely given us? How do you know this sanctification is not the way God uses to save us from Hell?
      It is for His good pleasure and not for salvation. In order that He be glorified. I think God's glorification, is above all things.
      (Rom 8:38 - 39) For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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      • Originally posted by JCiL View Post
        It is for His good pleasure and not for salvation. In order that He be glorified. I think God's glorification, is above all things.
        But isn't that which God wants the same as God's His good pleasure? That is, doesn't that which He wants give Him pleasure when He gets it?
        "If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains (however improbable) must be the truth."
        —Spock

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        • You may join us here, if you like:

          http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthrea...m-Debate-forum

          The hostiles seemed to have left the discussion, and there are now only thoughtful Protestants and Catholics.
          "If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains (however improbable) must be the truth."
          —Spock

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          • Originally posted by nic012
            YOu should wrong on the way of becoming a catholic and not a good idea
            Not sure what you mean here Nic. Care to elaborate?
            (Rom 8:38 - 39) For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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            • This private debate forum for two people. Please take comments and discussions to open forums.
              God Bless,
              Diane S

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