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Becoming a Catholic not a good idea?

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  • spockrates
    started a topic Becoming a Catholic not a good idea?

    Becoming a Catholic not a good idea?

    Not sure how this private debate thing works, so I'll post here to find out. Sent an email requesting it be approved, already. Not looking for a debate, just a thoughtful, respectful dialog. So here goes:

    I'm seriously considering becoming Catholic and would like advice as to why this is not a good idea.

  • Diane S
    replied
    This private debate forum for two people. Please take comments and discussions to open forums.

    Leave a comment:


  • JCiL
    replied
    Originally posted by nic012
    YOu should wrong on the way of becoming a catholic and not a good idea
    Not sure what you mean here Nic. Care to elaborate?

    Leave a comment:


  • spockrates
    replied
    You may join us here, if you like:

    http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthrea...m-Debate-forum

    The hostiles seemed to have left the discussion, and there are now only thoughtful Protestants and Catholics.

    Leave a comment:


  • spockrates
    replied
    Originally posted by JCiL View Post
    It is for His good pleasure and not for salvation. In order that He be glorified. I think God's glorification, is above all things.
    But isn't that which God wants the same as God's His good pleasure? That is, doesn't that which He wants give Him pleasure when He gets it?

    Leave a comment:


  • JCiL
    replied
    So how do you know that God working in you to will and act according to His purpose is not the salvation He has freely given us? How do you know this sanctification is not the way God uses to save us from Hell?
    It is for His good pleasure and not for salvation. In order that He be glorified. I think God's glorification, is above all things.

    Leave a comment:


  • JCiL
    replied
    In response to your reply, I'd ask this: But did we not agree earlier that Chris Himself is eternal life? Did we not also agree that only those who are connected to Christ continue to have eternal life?
    No, I don't think that was agreed between us, rather I asserted that God will bring anyone who "drifts" away back to Him.

    I think we also agree that if (and only if) it were possible for one to let go of Christ, He would not cease to be eternal life. The difference of opinion is over whether letting go is possible. You are certain it is not, and I'm not so certain.

    Perhaps an analogy will help show why I have some doubts: Consider a person water skiing. If she were to let go of the towrope and sink into the ocean, the rope would not cease to be what it is. So too, if someone were to let go of Christ and sink deep into sin, Christ would not cease to be who He is. Now one might say that the boat driver gives the water skier the towrope and no one holding onto the rope while the boat is in motion will sink into the water. Even though this be true, it would also be true that no one who lets go of the rope would continue to stay above the waterline. The same might be true of Christ: No one who holds onto Him will ever perish, but it would also be true that anyone who lets go of Him (if that were possible) would indeed perish. Jesus' statement in John's gospel would not be proven false by anyone who lets go. For He was not speaking of them. He was speaking only of the ones who would continue to hold onto Him. That's how someone can perish if Christ gives them eternal life--by letting go of it and Him. Jesus might actually have been saying that only those who accept and keep the gift do not perish.
    In the parable of the sower we see that the word falls on certain types of soil. Who would you think are the born again amongst those who the seed fall upon?

    So do you see how Catholics and some Protestants (such as Methodists and Evangelicals) believe what they do?
    I see it yes. My biggest concern about this theology remains, that it takes away from God's sovereignity. It is fact, that God predestines, justifies, and glorifies, before the foundation of the earth. How will He let go of those?

    The disagreement they have with you is not over John 10 and Romans 8; it's over the idea that no one can ever let go. John 10 and Romans 8 do not necessarily say no one can ever let go of Christ--though they do say that no one who holds on will ever perish. To prove them wrong, you and I still need a passage of scripture that clearly says it is impossible for anyone to let go of Christ. I'm not sure such a passage exists that clearly says no one can ever let go, so scripture remains ambiguous on this point. How then do I determine who has the correct interpretation of John 10 and Romans 8, since either interpretation might be true?
    Since we started this discussion, I have asked many people directly, if it would be possible for them personally to let go of God completely and utterly. So far no one has come back and said yes, It would be possible for me (personally) to completely and utterly deny Christ as my Lord and Saviour.

    I mean, even under the threat of death and torture, will you deny Him, in your innermost being?

    Leave a comment:


  • spockrates
    replied
    I appreciate your time and thoughtful answers, JCiL! Maybe we can do it again, sometime.

    Leave a comment:


  • spockrates
    replied
    Originally posted by JCiL View Post
    God has given us the free gift of salvation not so?
    Yes, that is so!



    What do you do with your free gift? I believe that we have to be stewards with what God has given us - salvation.
    Agreed.

    If you look at verse 13, I believe the key lies within.
    13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

    Can you see that it is actually God who works in us (this is the Almighty, and we have reverance for Him and we fear Him), so we have to be good stewards and allow God to work in us so we may WILL and ACT according to His good purpose.

    So God expects us to take stewardship, and we should honestly seek His face, in these things.
    So how do you know that God working in you to will and act according to His purpose is not the salvation He has freely given us? How do you know this sanctification is not the way God uses to save us from Hell?

    Leave a comment:


  • spockrates
    replied
    Originally posted by JCiL View Post
    (Joh 10:28) I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
    (Joh 10:29) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

    This scripture is clear. "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish...."
    This is a promise not from a man to man, nor from a man to a woman, nor from a human friend to a friend, but from Almighty God.

    He GIVES eternal life, and they will never perish. I think it has been established in our discussion that eternal life is given, the day you are born again, and you are sealed with the Holy Spirit.
    So how can you ever perish, if eternal life is given by Christ the redeemer?
    Sorry for taking so long to respond. Other things have kept me away.

    In response to your reply, I'd ask this: But did we not agree earlier that Chris Himself is eternal life? Did we not also agree that only those who are connected to Christ continue to have eternal life? I think we also agree that if (and only if) it were possible for one to let go of Christ, He would not cease to be eternal life. The difference of opinion is over whether letting go is possible. You are certain it is not, and I'm not so certain.

    Perhaps an analogy will help show why I have some doubts: Consider a person water skiing. If she were to let go of the towrope and sink into the ocean, the rope would not cease to be what it is. So too, if someone were to let go of Christ and sink deep into sin, Christ would not cease to be who He is. Now one might say that the boat driver gives the water skier the towrope and no one holding onto the rope while the boat is in motion will sink into the water. Even though this be true, it would also be true that no one who lets go of the rope would continue to stay above the waterline. The same might be true of Christ: No one who holds onto Him will ever perish, but it would also be true that anyone who lets go of Him (if that were possible) would indeed perish. Jesus' statement in John's gospel would not be proven false by anyone who lets go. For He was not speaking of them. He was speaking only of the ones who would continue to hold onto Him. That's how someone can perish if Christ gives them eternal life--by letting go of it and Him. Jesus might actually have been saying that only those who accept and keep the gift do not perish.

    So do you see how Catholics and some Protestants (such as Methodists and Evangelicals) believe what they do? The disagreement they have with you is not over John 10 and Romans 8; it's over the idea that no one can ever let go. John 10 and Romans 8 do not necessarily say no one can ever let go of Christ--though they do say that no one who holds on will ever perish. To prove them wrong, you and I still need a passage of scripture that clearly says it is impossible for anyone to let go of Christ. I'm not sure such a passage exists that clearly says no one can ever let go, so scripture remains ambiguous on this point. How then do I determine who has the correct interpretation of John 10 and Romans 8, since either interpretation might be true?
    Last edited by spockrates; 05-23-12, 01:27 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • JCiL
    replied
    Originally posted by ignatius
    Mark 16:15
    Yes.

    Do we go out and preach for our glory?

    Ps. This is a private debate forum, and I would like to debate you in this thread, but it is against the rules. If you start a thread, about anything I wrote, in the RCC forum, I will take part, or we can request our own debate.

    Leave a comment:


  • JCiL
    replied
    Originally posted by spockrates View Post
    Yes, that's a good point. I mean, I've been in Protestant churches where people who had been baptized as adults do get baptized again, but this is not so in the Catholic faith. Baptism should be done by a Catholic pastor only once, they teach. I wonder why. I wonder if the reason for this is that they believe the Holy Spirit is received at baptism and, somehow, never leaves the person, even when she becomes unrepentant. Hmmm.



    So what makes repenting onto salvation different from repenting after salvation? Is it the thing of which the person repents? For example, is the repentance onto salvation merely a repenting of one's unbelief (or lack of faith) in Christ? Is that the kind of repentance that saves?



    I find it interesting that you'd choose that verse. Is Paul saying we should work out of our salvation, or work out our salvation? Working out (at least in the United States) is a term that speaks of a process, rather than a one-time event. For example, if I work out at the gym, it's something I do again and again. If I'm working out a problem, it's something I am currently working on solving, but have not solved, yet. What do you think Paul intend to say, here?

    ...10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father.

    12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

    (Philippians 2)


    What does it mean to obey God and work out one's salvation with fear and trembling (verse 12)?
    God has given us the free gift of salvation not so?

    What do you do with your free gift? I believe that we have to be stewards with what God has given us - salvation.

    If you look at verse 13, I believe the key lies within.
    13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

    Can you see that it is actually God who works in us (this is the Almighty, and we have reverance for Him and we fear Him), so we have to be good stewards and allow God to work in us so we may WILL and ACT according to His good purpose.

    So God expects us to take stewardship, and we should honestly seek His face, in these things.

    Leave a comment:


  • JCiL
    replied
    Originally posted by spockrates View Post
    I think I see now. Condemning oneself does not mean feeling convicted of the wrongness of one's thoughts, words, or deeds. Condemning oneself means feeling that one is no longer Heaven bound. I think that is what you mean.

    The response both Catholics and many Protestants would give: "Of course, no one who is in Jesus would ever be condemned! God forbid! But we're not suggesting that. What we are saying is that only those not in Jesus would be condemned, and we're sure you agree. The disagreement we have is not with Romans 8, it's with your idea that no one who is in Jesus could ever become not in Jesus. Just as friends can become enemies, and spouses can divorce, so too believers can tragically walk away from Christ. To convince us that what you say is true, you must produce a passage of scripture that says no one in a relationship with God has the possibility of ever getting out of that relationship."
    (Joh 10:28) I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
    (Joh 10:29) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

    This scripture is clear. "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish...."
    This is a promise not from a man to man, nor from a man to a woman, nor from a human friend to a friend, but from Almighty God.

    He GIVES eternal life, and they will never perish. I think it has been established in our discussion that eternal life is given, the day you are born again, and you are sealed with the Holy Spirit.
    So how can you ever perish, if eternal life is given by Christ the redeemer?

    Leave a comment:


  • spockrates
    replied
    Originally posted by JCiL View Post
    Repent and be baptized. This is once of, not to be repeated, for you would have to be baptized continiously as well.
    Yes, that's a good point. I mean, I've been in Protestant churches where people who had been baptized as adults do get baptized again, but this is not so in the Catholic faith. Baptism should be done by a Catholic pastor only once, they teach. I wonder why. I wonder if the reason for this is that they believe the Holy Spirit is received at baptism and, somehow, never leaves the person, even when she becomes unrepentant. Hmmm.

    Repentance after salvation differs, for you are not repenting unto salvation all the time.
    So what makes repenting onto salvation different from repenting after salvation? Is it the thing of which the person repents? For example, is the repentance onto salvation merely a repenting of one's unbelief (or lack of faith) in Christ? Is that the kind of repentance that saves?

    Salvation is a once off event, we work out our salvation, through God working through is for His glory.
    I find it interesting that you'd choose that verse. Is Paul saying we should work out of our salvation, or work out our salvation? Working out (at least in the United States) is a term that speaks of a process, rather than a one-time event. For example, if I work out at the gym, it's something I do again and again. If I'm working out a problem, it's something I am currently working on solving, but have not solved, yet. What do you think Paul intend to say, here?

    ...10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father.

    12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

    (Philippians 2)


    What does it mean to obey God and work out one's salvation with fear and trembling (verse 12)?
    Last edited by spockrates; 05-18-12, 05:16 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • spockrates
    replied
    Originally posted by JCiL View Post
    Before salvation, one is condemned not so?
    After salvation:
    (Rom 8:1) There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

    You condemn yourself, if you do not believe these words that Paul wrote. Being convicted of sin, is something entirely different.
    I think I see now. Condemning oneself does not mean feeling convicted of the wrongness of one's thoughts, words, or deeds. Condemning oneself means feeling that one is no longer Heaven bound. I think that is what you mean.

    The response both Catholics and many Protestants would give: "Of course, no one who is in Jesus would ever be condemned! God forbid! But we're not suggesting that. What we are saying is that only those not in Jesus would be condemned, and we're sure you agree. The disagreement we have is not with Romans 8, it's with your idea that no one who is in Jesus could ever become not in Jesus. Just as friends can become enemies, and spouses can divorce, so too believers can tragically walk away from Christ. To convince us that what you say is true, you must produce a passage of scripture that says no one in a relationship with God has the possibility of ever getting out of that relationship."
    Last edited by spockrates; 05-18-12, 04:48 PM.

    Leave a comment:

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