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John T Have you ever asked for the positive reasons Adventists have for their belief?

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  • John T Have you ever asked for the positive reasons Adventists have for their belief?

    John T, thank you for inviting me to this forum.

    Here is what I would like to discuss:

    Have you ever asked for the positive reasons that Seventh-day Adventists have for their beliefs? In other words, could you approach me, a Seventh-day Adventist pastor, and ask me: "Why do you believe that Christians should be baptized?" or any other question about what we believe and practice.

    Another question might be: "Why do you believe that you should wash feet when you eat the Lord's Supper?"

    So, for discussion sake, phrase a question about our beliefs in this non-adversarial format and give me a chance to respond.

    Deal?
    Last edited by TheWholeGospel; 09-03-15, 06:27 PM.
    "I want the truth!"
    "You can't handle the truth!"

  • #2
    Deal

    However, I do believe that you are asking the wrong question when you ask, "[What are the] positive reasons that Seventh-day Adventists have for their beliefs?". That is because you are seeking extra biblical answers to your question, by definition.
    MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

    1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

    2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

    3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

    4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by john t View Post
      Deal

      However, I do believe that you are asking the wrong question when you ask, "[What are the] positive reasons that Seventh-day Adventists have for their beliefs?". That is because you are seeking extra biblical answers to your question, by definition.
      I am only talking about Scripture--not extra biblical answers. I will point to the Bible passages explaining why we believe that baptism is necessary for the Christian, why we wash feet when we partake of the Lord's Supper, and why we hold any other doctrinal belief.

      OK. Back to you.
      "I want the truth!"
      "You can't handle the truth!"

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by TheWholeGospel View Post
        I am only talking about Scripture--not extra biblical answers. I will point to the Bible passages explaining why we believe that baptism is necessary for the Christian, why we wash feet when we partake of the Lord's Supper, and why we hold any other doctrinal belief.

        OK. Back to you.
        Those differences are inconsequential because they are practiced in various churches in various ways, and are not conditions of salvation. That baptism is "necessary for the Christian" I will also agree, but only so far as it was instituted as a sacrament by Jesus. I have been "triple baptized" once as an infant, once as a young married man through sprinkling in a Mennonite church, and once by total immersion somewhere. Since the latter two were "believer's baptisms", and the second time was a repetition of the second in order to fulfill the requirements of the denomination; it was no biggie to me.

        The foot washings are a carry over of the old custom, and are not necessary nor as common as they were in the time of Jesus because we all wear shoes and socks and as often as we bathe, we wash our feet. While the foot washings are unnecessary due to culture, they are significant as a means of expressing service to another.
        MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

        1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

        2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

        3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

        4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







        Comment


        • #5
          John T, thank you for inviting me to this forum.

          Here is what I would like to discuss:

          Have you ever asked for the positive reasons that Seventh-day Adventists have for their beliefs? In other words, could you approach me, a Seventh-day Adventist pastor, and ask me: "Why do you believe that Christians should be baptized?" or any other question about what we believe and practice.
          Originally posted by john t View Post
          Those differences are inconsequential because they are practiced in various churches in various ways, and are not conditions of salvation. That baptism is "necessary for the Christian" I will also agree, but only so far as it was instituted as a sacrament by Jesus. I have been "triple baptized" once as an infant, once as a young married man through sprinkling in a Mennonite church, and once by total immersion somewhere. Since the latter two were "believer's baptisms", and the second time was a repetition of the second in order to fulfill the requirements of the denomination; it was no biggie to me.

          The foot washings are a carry over of the old custom, and are not necessary nor as common as they were in the time of Jesus because we all wear shoes and socks and as often as we bathe, we wash our feet. While the foot washings are unnecessary due to culture, they are significant as a means of expressing service to another.

          PART TWO

          It is impossible to post about "benefit" using Scripture alone.

          That is because the definition of that word means a good or an advantage that is given like a gift to someone. In most cases, benefits accrue to people who meet certain criteria such as eligibility. There is nothing in the New Covenant that says anything about "benefits" only to those who qualify based on anything of their meritorious actions.

          That is why I believe you are asking the wrong question. You see, if you ask the wrong question, you will always get a wrong answer. Let me propose another question, which I believe is getting to the heart of what you were asking, and if you deem my question to be a wrong, feel free to revise it, OK?

          NEW QUESTION Is this what you are attempting to ask?
          Do SDAs get a "better place in heaven" if they follow the things Ellen says than those who ignore what Ellen says?
          MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

          1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

          2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

          3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

          4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by john t View Post
            Those differences are inconsequential because they are practiced in various churches in various ways, and are not conditions of salvation. That baptism is "necessary for the Christian" I will also agree, but only so far as it was instituted as a sacrament by Jesus. I have been "triple baptized" once as an infant, once as a young married man through sprinkling in a Mennonite church, and once by total immersion somewhere. Since the latter two were "believer's baptisms", and the second time was a repetition of the second in order to fulfill the requirements of the denomination; it was no biggie to me.

            The foot washings are a carry over of the old custom, and are not necessary nor as common as they were in the time of Jesus because we all wear shoes and socks and as often as we bathe, we wash our feet. While the foot washings are unnecessary due to culture, they are significant as a means of expressing service to another.
            OK. As I promised, here is a quick Bible study on why Seventh-day Adventist practice baptism by immersion:

            Sprinkling doesn't require "much water." Baptism--immersion--does.
            John 3:23 (KJV) And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
            Acts 8:38 (KJV) And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
            Baptism is the symbol of burial with Christ.
            Roma 6:4 (KJV) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
            Sprinkling doesn't help us conceptualize burial. Therefore, Seventh-day Adventists hold to Biblical baptism, which is immersion.

            Belief and baptism are linked:
            Mark 16:16 (KJV) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be ******.
            Last edited by TheWholeGospel; 09-09-15, 07:42 PM.
            "I want the truth!"
            "You can't handle the truth!"

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by john t View Post
              Those differences are inconsequential because they are practiced in various churches in various ways, and are not conditions of salvation. That baptism is "necessary for the Christian" I will also agree, but only so far as it was instituted as a sacrament by Jesus. I have been "triple baptized" once as an infant, once as a young married man through sprinkling in a Mennonite church, and once by total immersion somewhere. Since the latter two were "believer's baptisms", and the second time was a repetition of the second in order to fulfill the requirements of the denomination; it was no biggie to me.

              The foot washings are a carry over of the old custom, and are not necessary nor as common as they were in the time of Jesus because we all wear shoes and socks and as often as we bathe, we wash our feet. While the foot washings are unnecessary due to culture, they are significant as a means of expressing service to another.
              Here is an even quicker Bible study on why we wash feet with communion.
              John 13:13 (KJV) Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for [so] I am. We
              14 If I then, [your] Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
              15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
              We obey Jesus' command, following His example.

              Now, if you would like a Biblical explanation of any other of our fundamental beliefs, name it and I will provide the Biblical basis for it.

              Thanks.
              "I want the truth!"
              "You can't handle the truth!"

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by TheWholeGospel View Post
                OK. As I promised, here is a quick Bible study on why Seventh-day Adventist practice baptism by immersion:

                Sprinkling doesn't require "much water." Baptism--immersion--does.
                John 3:23 (KJV) And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
                Acts 8:38 (KJV) And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
                Baptism is the symbol of burial with Christ.
                Roma 6:4 (KJV) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
                Sprinkling doesn't help us conceptualize burial. Therefore, Seventh-day Adventists hold to Biblical baptism, which is immersion.

                Belief and baptism are linked:
                Mark 16:16 (KJV) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be ******.
                I have been incredibly busy, and I have a few minutes to devote to this discussion this morning.

                I have no problem with that, as a whole, and I do believe in believer's baptism. However there is historical precedence where infant baptism was the NT rite of the Bris which is the 8th day circumcision and naming of the male. You can see this when the father of the Baptizer, John regained his voice.

                I am not going to argue it, I am merely stating how some have historically viewed things, but there are some of the pastors in those denominations who also practice believer's baptism.
                MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

                1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

                2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

                3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

                4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by TheWholeGospel View Post
                  Here is an even quicker Bible study on why we wash feet with communion.
                  John 13:13 (KJV) Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for [so] I am. We
                  14 If I then, [your] Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
                  15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
                  We obey Jesus' command, following His example.

                  Now, if you would like a Biblical explanation of any other of our fundamental beliefs, name it and I will provide the Biblical basis for it.

                  Thanks.
                  Foot washings are not mandatory; Jesus did that BEFORE they entered the house, and before they partook of the Seder, which is the meal. The important thing is the remembrance of body and blood of Jesus, our Substitutionary Atonement.

                  You do not get "brownie points" if you wash feet or do not wash feet. Your choice as a denomination, and of other denominations.
                  MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

                  1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

                  2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

                  3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

                  4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by john t View Post
                    I have been incredibly busy, and I have a few minutes to devote to this discussion this morning.

                    I have no problem with that, as a whole, and I do believe in believer's baptism. However there is historical precedence where infant baptism was the NT rite of the Bris which is the 8th day circumcision and naming of the male. You can see this when the father of the Baptizer, John regained his voice.

                    I am not going to argue it, I am merely stating how some have historically viewed things, but there are some of the pastors in those denominations who also practice believer's baptism.
                    I set this thread up as an educational opportunity for you to hear the positive biblical reasons for Adventist doctrines. What others may or may not do is off topic.
                    "I want the truth!"
                    "You can't handle the truth!"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by john t View Post
                      Foot washings are not mandatory; Jesus did that BEFORE they entered the house, and before they partook of the Seder, which is the meal. The important thing is the remembrance of body and blood of Jesus, our Substitutionary Atonement.

                      You do not get "brownie points" if you wash feet or do not wash feet. Your choice as a denomination, and of other denominations.
                      I'm not either a Girl Scout or a brownie, so their points are not at stake in this discussion. What IS at stake is whether Jesus told His followers in Scripture to wash feet with the communion service.

                      That point cannot really be argued.

                      Now, I have started this discussion with two rather uncontroversial points, which are simply supported by Scripture. Your response to me has not been from Scripture, so I am wondering what will happen as we go further. The ball is in your court. As I said:

                      "Now, if you would like a Biblical explanation of any other of our fundamental beliefs, name it and I will provide the Biblical basis for it."
                      "I want the truth!"
                      "You can't handle the truth!"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by TheWholeGospel View Post
                        I'm not either a Girl Scout or a brownie, so their points are not at stake in this discussion. What IS at stake is whether Jesus told His followers in Scripture to wash feet with the communion service.

                        That point cannot really be argued.

                        Now, I have started this discussion with two rather uncontroversial points, which are simply supported by Scripture. Your response to me has not been from Scripture, so I am wondering what will happen as we go further. The ball is in your court. As I said:

                        "Now, if you would like a Biblical explanation of any other of our fundamental beliefs, name it and I will provide the Biblical basis for it."
                        Let's stick to what you posted.

                        The Lord's Supper is commanded by Jesus, foot washing is not

                        Is it your belief that when Jesus said to the Disciples, "Do this in remembrance of me." that He was ALSO including the foot washings that Jesus did when the disciples entered?

                        Is it your position that the churches not doing the foot washing are not obeying Christ?
                        MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

                        1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

                        2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

                        3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

                        4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







                        Comment


                        • #13
                          BUMP

                          I know you are busy, but wow Kevin
                          MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

                          1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

                          2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

                          3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

                          4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by john t View Post
                            Let's stick to what you posted.

                            The Lord's Supper is commanded by Jesus, foot washing is not

                            Is it your belief that when Jesus said to the Disciples, "Do this in remembrance of me." that He was ALSO including the foot washings that Jesus did when the disciples entered?

                            Is it your position that the churches not doing the foot washing are not obeying Christ?

                            John 13:14 (KJV) If I then, [your] Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

                            This wasn't talking about that occasion, but future ones. They did not wash each other's feet on that day. Jesus tells us what we "ought" to do.
                            Last edited by TheWholeGospel; 09-30-15, 02:08 PM.
                            "I want the truth!"
                            "You can't handle the truth!"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by john t View Post
                              BUMP

                              I know you are busy, but wow Kevin
                              Incredibly. When I work on a manuscript, it consumes all my waking time that I am not doing the work of a pastor.

                              Now I am away from home caring for my mom. I only have access to the Internet when I drive by the library. I have had a few minutes to check my e-mail while my mom has been in the grocery store shopping. And now I am going back to pick her up.

                              I think the point about what Jesus said about footwashing is self-explanatory, so perhaps you would like to ask me another question about Seventh-day Adventist biblical doctrine.

                              Back to you, John. ...
                              Last edited by TheWholeGospel; 09-30-15, 02:13 PM.
                              "I want the truth!"
                              "You can't handle the truth!"

                              Comment

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