Announcement

Collapse

Message to all users:

https://carm.org/forum-rules

Super Member Subscription
https://carm.org/carm-super-members-banner-ad-signup

As most of you are aware, we had a crash to forums and were down for over two days a while back. We did have to do an upgrade to the vbulletin software to fix the forums and that has created changes, VB no longer provide the hybrid or threaded forums. There are some issues/changes to the forums we are not able to fix or change. Also note the link address change, please let friends and posters know of the changed link to the forums. For now this is the only link available, https://forums.carm.org/vb5/ but if clicking on forum on carm.org homepage it will now send you to this link. (edited to add https: now working.

Again, we are working through some of the posting and viewing issues to learn how to post with the changes, you will have to check and test the different features, icons that have changed. You may also want to go to profile settings,since many of the notifications, information in profile, also to update/edit your avatar by clicking on avatar space, pull down arrow next to login for user settings.

Edit to add "How to read forums, to make it easier."
Pull down arrow next to login name upper right select profile, or user settings when page opens to profile,select link in tab that says Account. Then select/choose options, go down to Conversation Detail Options, Select Display mode Posts, NOT Activity, that selection of Posts will make the pages of discussions go to last post on last page rather than out of order that happens if you choose activity threads. Then be sure to go to bottom and select SAVE Changes in your profile options. You can then follow discussions by going through the pages, to the last page having latest responses. Then click on the other links Privacy, Notifications, to select viewing options,the forums get easier if you open all the tabs or links in your profile, user settings and select options. To join Super Member, pull down arrow next to login name, select User Settings and then click on tab/link at top that says Subscriptions.

Thank you for your patience and God Bless.

Diane S
https://carm.org/forum-rules
See more
See less

John T Have you ever asked for the positive reasons Adventists have for their belief?

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by TheWholeGospel View Post
    John 13:14 (KJV) If I then, [your] Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

    This wasn't talking about that occasion, but future ones. They did not wash each other's feet on that day. Jesus tells us what we "ought" to do.
    Kevin, I hope that you realize that "ought" is a synonym for "should" meaning a SUGGESTION. It seems to me that you may be confusing the term "ought" with the command "Do this in remembrance of me." Nor is it anywhere close to the terms "fulfill all righteousness".

    The last two are commands, hence Ordinances in the church. Sadly. you misconstrue a command with a suggestion; therein is your error.
    MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

    1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

    2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

    3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

    4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by john t View Post
      Kevin, I hope that you realize that "ought" is a synonym for "should" meaning a SUGGESTION. It seems to me that you may be confusing the term "ought" with the command "Do this in remembrance of me." Nor is it anywhere close to the terms "fulfill all righteousness".

      The last two are commands, hence Ordinances in the church. Sadly. you misconstrue a command with a suggestion; therein is your error.
      There is nothing sad about taking Jesus' "suggestion," as you put it, and following it.

      Now, what other Biblical doctrine of the Seventh-day Adventist Church would you like to explore. How about #6. "Creation"? Put in a question it would be:

      Why do Seventh-day Adventists believe that God is the Creator of the universe and that He created the earth in six days and rested on and blessed and sanctified the seventh day?

      Link to SDA beliefs: http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/doctrines/gc28.htm
      Last edited by TheWholeGospel; 10-03-15, 04:41 PM.
      "I want the truth!"
      "You can't handle the truth!"

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by john t View Post
        John T, thank you for inviting me to this forum.





        PART TWO

        It is impossible to post about "benefit" using Scripture alone.

        That is because the definition of that word means a good or an advantage that is given like a gift to someone. In most cases, benefits accrue to people who meet certain criteria such as eligibility. There is nothing in the New Covenant that says anything about "benefits" only to those who qualify based on anything of their meritorious actions.

        That is why I believe you are asking the wrong question. You see, if you ask the wrong question, you will always get a wrong answer. Let me propose another question, which I believe is getting to the heart of what you were asking, and if you deem my question to be a wrong, feel free to revise it, OK?

        NEW QUESTION Is this what you are attempting to ask?
        Do SDAs get a "better place in heaven" if they follow the things Ellen says than those who ignore what Ellen says?
        I see that I missed this question. What was that about asking the right question?

        First, you must establish that there are "better places" in heaven, and, second, you need to ask the right question. I established quite plainly that I was only going to be dealing with Biblical teaching. What Ellen White says does not apply in this discussion.
        "I am only talking about Scripture--not extra biblical answers. I will point to the Bible passages explaining why we believe that baptism is necessary for the Christian, why we wash feet when we partake of the Lord's Supper, and why we hold any other doctrinal belief."
        The discussion, as I focused it in my clarification, is on Biblical doctrines. So, with that caveat, would you like to (a) establish that there are better and worse places in heaven and (b) ask your question with the focus on what the Bible says as per my clarification?
        Last edited by TheWholeGospel; 10-03-15, 04:35 PM.
        "I want the truth!"
        "You can't handle the truth!"

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally Posted by john t

          Sadly. you misconstrue a command with a suggestion; therein is your error.
          Originally posted by TheWholeGospel View Post
          There is nothing sad about taking Jesus' "suggestion," as you put it, and following it.
          Your comment totally misrepresents what I stated. To do that is to make communication impossible; it is if you are reading Jabberwocky, and replying to something never intenderd

          Now, what other Biblical doctrine of the Seventh-day Adventist Church would you like to explore?
          You have not finished with what you began, nor have you answered my legitimate questions. Is it your opinion that what Ellen wrote is on par with the 66 books of the Bible?

          That is a legitimate issue because in the other post about foot washing, it is absolutely cleazr that Jesus made a SUGGESTION and did not make a command about it. So I am asking the same question, but in another manner.
          MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

          1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

          2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

          3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

          4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by john t View Post
            Your comment totally misrepresents what I stated. To do that is to make communication impossible; it is if you are reading Jabberwocky, and replying to something never intended
            Please listen to what I am saying. What wrong is there in Seventh-day Adventists taking Jesus' "ought" and doing it? Why would it be sad to accept the "ought" of Jesus as His telling us what He could easily command us to do?

            When your mom told you, "John, you should look both ways before you cross the street," was there anything optional about that? Why would you take your mother's "should" as authoritative while making Jesus' "ought" optional?

            You have not finished with what you began, nor have you answered my legitimate questions. Is it your opinion that what Ellen wrote is on par with the 66 books of the Bible?
            What do you mean by "on par with"? If you mean, does she carry the same authority for Seventh-day Adventists as the Bible. The answer is: No, she does not. As I have been pointing out to you in this series, Seventh-day Adventist doctrines are built on Scripture.

            If you mean, did she write under the inspiration of a different Holy Spirit? The answer is: Seventh-day Adventists believe that she wrote under the influence of the same Holy Spirit as did the writers of Scripture. The SOURCE of her inspiration is not "on par" with that of the Bible writers, it is THE SAME.

            That is a legitimate issue because in the other post about foot washing, it is absolutely clear that Jesus made a SUGGESTION and did not make a command about it. So I am asking the same question, but in another manner.
            John, the difference between a command of Jesus or His suggesting that we "ought" to wash one another's feet makes no real difference. I simply told you the Biblical reason we wash feet with communion. It is because of Jesus' "ought."

            Now, what other of our 28 fundamentals beliefs would you like me to explain from Scripture?
            Last edited by TheWholeGospel; 10-04-15, 12:45 AM.
            "I want the truth!"
            "You can't handle the truth!"

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally Posted by john t

              ( 1) Sadly. you misconstrue a command with a suggestion; therein is your error.
              Originally Posted by TheWholeGospel

              ( 2) There is nothing sad about taking Jesus' "suggestion," as you put it, and following it.



              Originally Posted by john t

              ( 3) Your comment totally misrepresents what I stated. To do that is to make communication impossible; it is if you are reading Jabberwocky, and replying to something never intended
              Originally posted by TheWholeGospel View Post
              (4) Please listen to what I am saying. What wrong is there in Seventh-day Adventists taking Jesus' "ought" and doing it? Why would it be sad to accept the "ought" of Jesus as His telling us what He could easily command us to do?
              Do you want to discuss, or do you want to pontificate?

              Statement 1 is a critique about your own confusion about the nature of what a suggestion means. I could do a linguistic analysis on the usage of the adverb "sadly" being used by me to modify the verb "misconstrue" What I meant to convey to you is that you took my statement as a critique of the way you took that as a command. Are you familiar with Dictionary.com? There is a G R E A T difference between a suggestion and a command.

              Your statement 2 is jumping all over my case and wrongfully criticizing my response as if I am saying "Following the suggestions of Jesus is sad." You are making false allegations against me, and calling me a liar. I must remind you that the rules on the open forums and on this debate forum are identical, and I shall not tolerate any further insults, nor will I let them pass without alerting them to a moderator in the future.

              Statement 3 is my being upset at your misunderstanding of what I stated, but your response, 4 now makes an outrageous assumption that in making the criticism of your misunderstanding of one word, I am now somehow attacking the entire
              SDA church, which I NEVER mentioned.

              As I mentioned earlier, do you wish to discuss, or do you wish to pontificate?

              When your mom told you, "John, you should look both ways before you cross the street," was there anything optional about that? Why would you take your mother's "should" as authoritative while making Jesus' "ought" optional?
              Irrelevant.
              What my parents said to me is immaterial to the discussion at hand. Therefore it is a derail.


              What do you mean by "on par with"? If you mean, does she carry the same authority for Seventh-day Adventists as the Bible. The answer is: No, she does not. As I have been pointing out to you in this series, Seventh-day Adventist doctrines are built on Scripture.

              If you mean, did she write under the inspiration of a different Holy Spirit? The answer is: Seventh-day Adventists believe that she wrote under the influence of the same Holy Spirit as did the writers of Scripture. The SOURCE of her inspiration is not "on par" with that of the Bible writers, it is THE SAME.
              Pardon, but your inconsistency is showing.

              On one hand, you outright deny that her writings are not the same as Scripture, but then on the other hand, you state that the same Holy spirit who superintended the writing of Scriptures, is the same Holy Spirit who inspired Ellen's writings. Putting aside blasphemy against Holy Spirit for a while--which that statement is, and without any doubt; you are making the preposterous claim that masturbation REALLY does cause blindness and feebleness because that is what Holy Spirit says.

              In case you are not aware of the serious nature of both the offense and the punishment that accompanies BAHS, it is attributing to Him, fully God, Holy Spirit that he lies. There is no medical or scientific effects of long-term deleterious effects of masturbation. almost every adolescent male has done it, as well as many women in the world. If it were the case as you are alleging that there is long-term delitorious effects, then the only sane people on the planet would be pre-adolescent virgin children

              The office or "job" of Holy spirit is ti always and only point to Jesus Christ as Savior. Your version of unholy spirit points people towards slavery to Ellen, snd doing the stupid things she suggests. Therefore the blasphemy comes when you ATTRIBUTE TO HIM ANYTHING THAT WILL TAKE THEM AWAY FROM THE GRACE AND MERCY OF JESUS.

              May you repent, and repent soon of that blasphemy.


              [QUOTE-]John, the difference between a command of Jesus or His suggesting that we "ought" to wash one another's feet makes no real difference. I simply told you the Biblical reason we wash feet with communion. It is because of Jesus' "ought."[/QUOTE]

              You have YET to make a cogent case for what you first brought up in the OP. Until you are able to do that, there is no sense in considering something else, such as you describe below.

              Originally posted by TheWholeGospel View Post
              ]Now, what other of our 28 fundamentals beliefs would you like me to explain from Scripture?
              MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

              1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

              2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

              3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

              4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by john t View Post
                Do you want to discuss, or do you want to pontificate?

                Statement 1 is a critique about your own confusion about the nature of what a suggestion means. I could do a linguistic analysis on the usage of the adverb "sadly" being used by me to modify the verb "misconstrue" What I meant to convey to you is that you took my statement as a critique of the way you took that as a command. Are you familiar with Dictionary.com? There is a G R E A T difference between a suggestion and a command.

                Your statement 2 is jumping all over my case and wrongfully criticizing my response as if I am saying "Following the suggestions of Jesus is sad." You are making false allegations against me, and calling me a liar. I must remind you that the rules on the open forums and on this debate forum are identical, and I shall not tolerate any further insults, nor will I let them pass without alerting them to a moderator in the future.

                Statement 3 is my being upset at your misunderstanding of what I stated, but your response, 4 now makes an outrageous assumption that in making the criticism of your misunderstanding of one word, I am now somehow attacking the entire
                SDA church, which I NEVER mentioned.

                As I mentioned earlier, do you wish to discuss, or do you wish to pontificate?


                Irrelevant.
                What my parents said to me is immaterial to the discussion at hand. Therefore it is a derail.




                Pardon, but your inconsistency is showing.

                On one hand, you outright deny that her writings are not the same as Scripture, but then on the other hand, you state that the same Holy spirit who superintended the writing of Scriptures, is the same Holy Spirit who inspired Ellen's writings. Putting aside blasphemy against Holy Spirit for a while--which that statement is, and without any doubt; you are making the preposterous claim that masturbation REALLY does cause blindness and feebleness because that is what Holy Spirit says.

                In case you are not aware of the serious nature of both the offense and the punishment that accompanies BAHS, it is attributing to Him, fully God, Holy Spirit that he lies. There is no medical or scientific effects of long-term deleterious effects of masturbation. almost every adolescent male has done it, as well as many women in the world. If it were the case as you are alleging that there is long-term delitorious effects, then the only sane people on the planet would be pre-adolescent virgin children

                The office or "job" of Holy spirit is ti always and only point to Jesus Christ as Savior. Your version of unholy spirit points people towards slavery to Ellen, snd doing the stupid things she suggests. Therefore the blasphemy comes when you ATTRIBUTE TO HIM ANYTHING THAT WILL TAKE THEM AWAY FROM THE GRACE AND MERCY OF JESUS.

                May you repent, and repent soon of that blasphemy.


                John, the difference between a command of Jesus or His suggesting that we "ought" to wash one another's feet makes no real difference. I simply told you the Biblical reason we wash feet with communion. It is because of Jesus' "ought."
                You have YET to make a cogent case for what you first brought up in the OP. Until you are able to do that, there is no sense in considering something else, such as you describe below.
                John, the simple point I made in the OP is that I wish to make a positive case for our beliefs. You ASSUMED I meant some other way than from Scripture. I clarified that the positive case which I wish to make for our beliefs is solely from Scripture. In both issues that I have brought up, I have made a positive case from Scripture.

                You asked me about whether Ellen White was "on par" with Scripture (a side issue from the OP). Even though your bringing it up is a side issue to what I defined, I responded simply and plainly--her authority is NOT on par (or equal) with Scripture, yet her source of inspiration--the Holy Spirit--is the same as Scripture. Her source of inspiration--as every prophet's source of inspiration--is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit inspires the prophets. For me to make that statement is merely to accept the biblical teaching on the subject. See what Peter writes about prophecy:
                2Pet 1:21 (KJV) For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
                Now, please state another of our 28 fundamentals that you would like me to give the positive Scriptural case for, and then we can proceed.
                Last edited by TheWholeGospel; 10-05-15, 12:37 AM.
                "I want the truth!"
                "You can't handle the truth!"

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by TheWholeGospel View Post
                  John, the simple point I made in the OP is that I wish to make a positive case for our beliefs. You ASSUMED I meant some other way than from Scripture. I clarified that the positive case which I wish to make for our beliefs is solely from Scripture. In both issues that I have brought up, I have made a positive case from Scripture.

                  You asked me about whether Ellen White was "on par" with Scripture (a side issue from the OP). Even though your bringing it up is a side issue to what I defined, I responded simply and plainly--her authority is NOT on par (or equal) with Scripture, yet her source of inspiration--the Holy Spirit--is the same as Scripture. Her source of inspiration--as every prophet's source of inspiration--is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit inspires the prophets. For me to make that statement is merely to accept the biblical teaching on the subject. See what Peter writes about prophecy:
                  .
                  2Pet 1:21 (KJV) For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
                  Now, please state another of our 28 fundamentals that you would like me to give the positive Scriptural case for, and then we can proceed.
                  What is the CONTEXT of what Peter said?
                  .
                  1 Peter 1: 16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
                  17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,” 18 we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain.
                  19 And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts,
                  20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation.
                  21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
                  ESV
                  .
                  Peter was clearly writing about the prophecies surrounding the life of Jesus christ who to all the prophets was yet to come. There is no way that Peter was writing about Ellen. Therefore it is bogus for you or anyone else to include her in the meaning and application of Scripture. IOW to do what you have done in applying that Scripture is as eviserating and twisting as one can get. Just like a wash cloth is twisted to get excess water out of it, so also have you done the same thing to the Bible. You have eviscerated the life out of the Scriptures.

                  Do you suppose that he, writing as an APOSTLE meant "prophecy as in the past through the recognized Prophets of the OT, and John the baptizer. the last OT prophet" or do you suppose that the APOSTLE meant "prophecy to come" which would have negated his position as APOSTLE as well as all the other Apostles?

                  No my bringing in Ellen is not ancillary to the issue since it can be established (as I have done) that her works were chock full of nutty things and false prophecies.

                  It seems as you wish to be more argumentative than anything else. You stated that you wanted to post about the "positive benefits" of being a SDA person, and I maintain that NONE of the stuff you guys teach can be substantiated bu using Scripture alone, and SCRIPTURE IN CONTEXT.


                  As I mentioned earlier, do you wish to discuss the Bible in its CONTEXT, or do you wish to pontificate?
                  MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

                  1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

                  2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

                  3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

                  4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by john t View Post
                    What is the CONTEXT of what Peter said?
                    .
                    1 Peter 1: 16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
                    17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,” 18 we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain.
                    19 And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts,
                    20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation.
                    21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
                    ESV
                    .
                    How does that in the least change the fact that prophecy comes from the Spirit of prophecy--even under the New Testament? It does not. Paul says that the gift or prophecy comes by the Spirit.
                    1Cor 12:7 (KJV) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
                    8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
                    9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
                    10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
                    Peter was clearly writing about the prophecies surrounding the life of Jesus Christ who to all the prophets was yet to come. There is no way that Peter was writing about Ellen. Therefore it is bogus for you or anyone else to include her in the meaning and application of Scripture. IOW to do what you have done in applying that Scripture is as eviserating and twisting as one can get. Just like a wash cloth is twisted to get excess water out of it, so also have you done the same thing to the Bible. You have eviscerated the life out of the Scriptures.

                    Do you suppose that he, writing as an APOSTLE meant "prophecy as in the past through the recognized Prophets of the OT, and John the baptizer. the last OT prophet" or do you suppose that the APOSTLE meant "prophecy to come" which would have negated his position as APOSTLE as well as all the other Apostles?

                    No my bringing in Ellen is not ancillary to the issue since it can be established (as I have done) that her works were chock full of nutty things and false prophecies.
                    The ground rules of this exchange is for you to ask for me to give the positive Biblical case for our doctrines. If you want to explore things that you think are "nutty," then please set up a different thread for that. You invited me to exchange information with you. You suggested this private debate forum because I kept insisting that you weren't listening to me, that you didn't care to learn. I am only seeking to follow through with that purpose.

                    If you are willing to learn, you will take the opportunity that you suggested. Remember, your objective is to listen and to show a willingness to learn.

                    It seems as you wish to be more argumentative than anything else. You stated that you wanted to post about the "positive benefits" of being a SDA person, and I maintain that NONE of the stuff you guys teach can be substantiated bu using Scripture alone, and SCRIPTURE IN CONTEXT.

                    As I mentioned earlier, do you wish to discuss the Bible in its CONTEXT, or do you wish to pontificate?
                    I wish to stand by what the Scriptures clearly teach. What have I stated positively from Scripture thus far?

                    1. Baptism is required of those who believe in the New Testament.
                    2. Jesus set an example of footwashing and said that we "ought" to follow His example.
                    3. Prophets under the New Testament are not inspired by a different Holy Spirit than any of the Bible prophets--Old Testament or New.

                    These are positive statements.

                    Would you mind pointing to another fundamental teaching for which I can follow through with the OP and give you the positive Biblical case for it?

                    I have already responded about prophecy, and Paul is clear that we are not to despise prophesying (1 Thes. 5:20).
                    Last edited by TheWholeGospel; 10-05-15, 02:12 AM.
                    "I want the truth!"
                    "You can't handle the truth!"

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by TheWholeGospel View Post
                      How does that in the least change the fact that prophecy comes from the Spirit of prophecy--even under the New Testament? It does not. Paul says that the gift or prophecy comes by the Spirit.
                      .
                      1Cor 12:7 (KJV) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
                      8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
                      9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
                      10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:


                      The ground rules of this exchange is for you to ask for me to give the positive Biblical case for our doctrines. If you want to explore things that you think are "nutty," then please set up a different thread for that. You invited me to exchange information with you. You suggested this private debate forum because I kept insisting that you weren't listening to me, that you didn't care to learn. I am only seeking to follow through with that purpose.

                      Your error is that in ALL of these writings, be it be done by Paul, Peter or Jesus, the emphasis was ALWAYS in the past tense, not the future. That is a great violation of the hermenutic principle that the time of the utterance is a reflection of the meaning of the author. For you or anyone to make such a leap of time, and to magically apply it to Ellen is balderdash.


                      If you are willing to learn, you will take the opportunity that you suggested. Remember, your objective is to listen and to show a willingness to learn.
                      I am a critical learner, and I ALWAYS asked questions, I will always inspect methods of pedagogy to see of they are sound, and I will always question the ones trying to teach. It is not that I am attempting to be superior to others; rather I want to be sure that what new thing I am supposed to be learning is sound.

                      For two reasons I find that what you are attempting to "teach: to be unsound.

                      1) is the fact that you seem to want to be the "unquestionable expert"
                      2) is the fact that you are focusing on my "attitude" saying "If you want to learn..." which is very imperious and condescending. That is how the people heard "truth" from David Koresh" or Jim Jones, etc.

                      I wish to stand by what the Scriptures clearly teach. What have I stated positively from Scripture thus far?

                      1. Baptism is required of those who believe in the New Testament.
                      2. Jesus set an example of foot washing and said that we "ought" to follow His example.
                      3. Prophets under the New Testament are not inspired by a different Holy Spirit than any of the Bible prophets--Old Testament or New.

                      These are positive statements.
                      As far as those statements go, they are fine. The trouble happens whenever anyone goes off on a tangent. That is what "got you in trouble" about foot washing.

                      Would you mind pointing to another fundamental teaching for which I can follow through with the OP and give you the positive Biblical case for it?
                      I have already responded about prophecy, and Paul is clear that we are not to despise prophesying (1 Thes. 5:20).
                      I have no problem with that as long as it remains a statement about what was prophesied in the OT. I have great issues with that when you make an non-chronological statement, and project it into 1844 etc.
                      MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

                      1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

                      2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

                      3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

                      4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by john t View Post
                        Your error is that in ALL of these writings, be it be done by Paul, Peter or Jesus, the emphasis was ALWAYS in the past tense, not the future. That is a great violation of the hermenutic principle that the time of the utterance is a reflection of the meaning of the author. For you or anyone to make such a leap of time, and to magically apply it to Ellen is balderdash.
                        I have one simple response: The giving of the gift of prophecy is not past in the statements of Paul.

                        I am a critical learner, and I ALWAYS asked questions, I will always inspect methods of pedagogy to see of they are sound, and I will always question the ones trying to teach. It is not that I am attempting to be superior to others; rather I want to be sure that what new thing I am supposed to be learning is sound.

                        For two reasons I find that what you are attempting to "teach: to be unsound.

                        1) is the fact that you seem to want to be the "unquestionable expert"
                        When it comes to the Biblical reasons for what Seventh-day Adventists believe, who is the expert--the one who has taught Adventist beliefs for thirty years or the one who has recently tangentially encountered them? I think you can find it in your heart to recognize that you are not an expert on Seventh-day Adventist beliefs.

                        2) is the fact that you are focusing on my "attitude" saying "If you want to learn..." which is very imperious and condescending. That is how the people heard "truth" from David Koresh" or Jim Jones, etc.
                        We started this thread because you, in effect, said: "OK. You say I'm not willing to listen. I will show you that I am. Let's have a special format so this can take place." Learning cannot be crammed down someone's throat, so, yes, I focus on your willingness to listen so that learning can take place.

                        As far as those statements go, they are fine. The trouble happens whenever anyone goes off on a tangent.
                        I think anyone looking over our shoulder should recognize that I have kept the discussion on topic.

                        That is what "got you in trouble" about foot washing.
                        I don't know yet how doing what Jesus said that His followers "ought" to do can get someone in trouble.

                        I have no problem with that as long as it remains a statement about what was prophesied in the OT. I have great issues with that when you make an non-chronological statement, and project it into 1844 etc.
                        Paul isn't talking about what was prophesied in the OT. He is talking about the gift of prophecy within the church.
                        1The 5:19 (RSV) Do not quench the Spirit,
                        20 do not despise prophesying,
                        I suggest that you look at the other verses in the NT, whether by Paul or John, that speak about the gift of prophecy. Search on "prophes*" and "prophet*"--there are many, and they speak of an ongoing gift within the NT church.

                        Let me know when you have reviewed the pertinent Bible passages.
                        Last edited by TheWholeGospel; 10-09-15, 11:50 PM.
                        "I want the truth!"
                        "You can't handle the truth!"

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by TheWholeGospel View Post
                          I have one simple response: The giving of the gift of prophecy is not past in the statements of Paul.
                          That statement is so absolutely false and I really struggle to refrain from going snarky. Instead, I will tell you how to find it in the Englishman's Greek Concordance.
                          .
                          1) Look at all the all the times that the verb "prophesy" is used in the NT
                          2) Using your seminary Greek, find the proper spelling of the future tense.
                          3 Find the usages of it by Paul in its context relating to the GIFT of one making prophesy.
                          .
                          You are the one making that statement, Kevin, so it is you who has to back it up. If you can do it i will be will just be forced to admit that the Apostle Paul permitted the office of Prophet to continue in the NT. If on the other hand, there can be no evidence to back your statement up you will be forced to admit that your statement above has no basis in Scripture, and to teach that it is to be continuing is in fact, a heresy.
                          .
                          When it comes to the Biblical reasons for what Seventh-day Adventists believe, who is the expert--the one who has taught Adventist beliefs for thirty years or the one who has recently tangentially encountered them? I think you can find it in your heart to recognize that you are not an expert on Seventh-day Adventist beliefs.
                          .
                          That is a rather weak statement. If we read somewhere in Ellen's writings that she thought that pigs can fly, all that is necessary is for the one making that affirmative statement into a true statement is demonstrate that somewhere in DoA for example, she said "I believe that pigs can and do fly." (Facetious example, but it demonstrates my point) It does not take an "expert in SDA things" to make that sort of statement.
                          .
                          We started this thread because you, in effect, said: "OK. You say I'm not willing to listen. I will show you that I am. Let's have a special format so this can take place." Learning cannot be crammed down someone's throat, so, yes, I focus on your willingness to listen so that learning can take place.
                          .
                          Here is a part of your FIRST post on this thread:
                          .
                          John T, thank you for inviting me to this forum. Here is what I would like to discuss: Have you ever asked for the positive reasons that Seventh-day Adventists have for their beliefs? In other words, could you approach me, a Seventh-day Adventist pastor, and ask me: "Why do you believe that Christians should be baptized?" or any other question about what we believe and practice. Another question might be: "Why do you believe that you should wash feet when you eat the Lord's Supper?" So, for discussion sake, phrase a question about our beliefs in this non-adversarial format and give me a chance to respond.
                          You should notice that the questions you proposed were all subjective, "What do you believe" instead of "What does the Bible have to say about.........? You seemed to accept that correction of discussion. So on that basis, I think that we can both agree to these two statements regarding foot washing.
                          .
                          1) The SDA church practices foot washing.
                          2) THE act of foot washing is NOT an ordinance because Jesus did not command it.
                          .
                          In that light you Seventh-day Adventists accept the Bible as the only source of our beliefs. We consider our movement to be the result of the Protestant conviction Sola Scriptura—the Bible as the only standard of faith and practice for Christians.
                          http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/

                          .
                          Now it seems that you wish to examine FB 18:
                          . . .
                          the
                          One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord’s messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested.
                          . .
                          Unfortunately, the "scripture tests" supplied by the writers of the SDA FB 18 fail that test
                          .
                          The prophecy of Joel 2 is fulfilled in Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judæa, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
                          .
                          15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
                          16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
                          17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy.....
                          .
                          So the APOSTLE PETER makes it absolutely clear that om this particular SUNDAY the 50th day after the last day of the Passover Seder on the Sabbath that Holy spirit established the Church of Jesus Christ upon the Earth. Therefore both Joel and Acts do not support FB 18 in any way.
                          .
                          Hebrews 1:1:3 does not mention anyone prophesying anything after the writing of the NT
                          .
                          Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
                          2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
                          3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
                          .
                          Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
                          ...
                          . 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
                          17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
                          .
                          Revelation 19: 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 1
                          10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
                          11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war
                          I .
                          I defy you to find ANYTHING in those verses which come straight from the KJV, and straight of the "Scripture supports" that you guys use to support EGW doing any prophesying.

                          Face it Kevin the work of the leaders to concoct those things is popycock. iT IS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYONE ELSE being a prophet. Therefore, from your OWN sources, there is NO support for FB 18.

                          Ya lost that round too. That is because I used "sola Scriptura" because I did use Scripture.



                          I don't know yet how doing what Jesus said that His followers "ought" to do can get someone in trouble.
                          I never said ANYTHING like that, You need to recant that statement, or else it is ANOTHER misquote


                          1The 5:19 (RSV) Do not quench the Spirit,
                          20 do not despise prophesying,
                          I suggest that you look at the other verses in the NT, whether by Paul or John, that speak about the gift of prophecy. Search on "prophes*" and "prophet*"--there are many, and they speak of an ongoing gift within the NT church. Let me know when you have reviewed the pertinent Bible passages.
                          .
                          1The 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men. 16 Rejoice evermore. 17 Pray without ceasing. 18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
                          19 Quench not the Spirit.
                          20 Despise not prophesyings.
                          21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
                          22 Abstain from all appearance of evil
                          .
                          Kevin, you have consistently broken (along with your SDA leaders) broken my "Apologetic Axiom 1":
                          Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

                          I regret that you may not like that, but you are being inconsistent about the stuff your SDA leaders say. Do you suppose that THEY are lying to you? That is really a nasty situation they have placed you in. You see, the choice you really have is to obey your leaders, or obey Scriptures. What I demonstrated here is that there can be no reconciliation of what the official doctrine of the SDA really is, and what Scripture actually says.

                          Make your choice, Kevin: Is it Ellen or the Scriptures in their context?
                          MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

                          1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

                          2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

                          3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

                          4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by john t View Post
                            That statement is so absolutely false and I really struggle to refrain from going snarky. Instead, I will tell you how to find it in the Englishman's Greek Concordance.
                            It is present tense, John. It describes the Gospel era--not the Old Testament prophets. I will stop here, for, if you cannot see that it is present tense, nothing else that I can say will make any difference.
                            Roma 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, [let us prophesy] according to the proportion of faith;

                            1Cor 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with [her] head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
                            1Cor 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
                            1Cor 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
                            29 [Are] all apostles? [are] all prophets? [are] all teachers? [are] all workers of miracles?
                            1Cor 13:2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
                            1Cor 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
                            1Cor 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual [gifts], but rather that ye may prophesy.
                            1Cor 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men [to] edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
                            1Cor 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater [is] he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
                            1Cor 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying [serveth] not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
                            1Cor 14:24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or [one] unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
                            1Cor 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
                            1Cor 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
                            1Cor 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
                            1Cor 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

                            Ephe 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
                            Ephe 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
                            Ephe 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

                            1The 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.

                            1Tim 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

                            1) Look at all the all the times that the verb "prophesy" is used in the NT
                            2) Using your seminary Greek, find the proper spelling of the future tense.
                            3 Find the usages of it by Paul in its context relating to the GIFT of one making prophesy.
                            .
                            You are the one making that statement, Kevin, so it is you who has to back it up. If you can do it i will be will just be forced to admit that the Apostle Paul permitted the office of Prophet to continue in the NT. If on the other hand, there can be no evidence to back your statement up you will be forced to admit that your statement above has no basis in Scripture, and to teach that it is to be continuing is in fact, a heresy.
                            .

                            .
                            That is a rather weak statement. If we read somewhere in Ellen's writings that she thought that pigs can fly, all that is necessary is for the one making that affirmative statement into a true statement is demonstrate that somewhere in DoA for example, she said "I believe that pigs can and do fly." (Facetious example, but it demonstrates my point) It does not take an "expert in SDA things" to make that sort of statement.
                            .

                            .
                            Here is a part of your FIRST post on this thread:
                            .


                            You should notice that the questions you proposed were all subjective, "What do you believe" instead of "What does the Bible have to say about.........? You seemed to accept that correction of discussion. So on that basis, I think that we can both agree to these two statements regarding foot washing.
                            .
                            1) The SDA church practices foot washing.
                            2) THE act of foot washing is NOT an ordinance because Jesus did not command it.
                            .
                            In that light you Seventh-day Adventists accept the Bible as the only source of our beliefs. We consider our movement to be the result of the Protestant conviction Sola Scriptura—the Bible as the only standard of faith and practice for Christians.
                            http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/

                            .
                            Now it seems that you wish to examine FB 18:
                            . . .
                            the
                            One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord’s messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested.
                            . .
                            Unfortunately, the "scripture tests" supplied by the writers of the SDA FB 18 fail that test
                            .
                            The prophecy of Joel 2 is fulfilled in Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judæa, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
                            .
                            15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
                            16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
                            17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy.....
                            .
                            So the APOSTLE PETER makes it absolutely clear that om this particular SUNDAY the 50th day after the last day of the Passover Seder on the Sabbath that Holy spirit established the Church of Jesus Christ upon the Earth. Therefore both Joel and Acts do not support FB 18 in any way.
                            .
                            Hebrews 1:1:3 does not mention anyone prophesying anything after the writing of the NT
                            .
                            Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
                            2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
                            3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
                            .
                            Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
                            ...
                            . 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
                            17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
                            .
                            Revelation 19: 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 1
                            10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
                            11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war
                            I .
                            I defy you to find ANYTHING in those verses which come straight from the KJV, and straight of the "Scripture supports" that you guys use to support EGW doing any prophesying.

                            Face it Kevin the work of the leaders to concoct those things is popycock. iT IS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYONE ELSE being a prophet. Therefore, from your OWN sources, there is NO support for FB 18.

                            Ya lost that round too. That is because I used "sola Scriptura" because I did use Scripture.



                            I never said ANYTHING like that, You need to recant that statement, or else it is ANOTHER misquote [INDENT]

                            .
                            1The 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men. 16 Rejoice evermore. 17 Pray without ceasing. 18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
                            19 Quench not the Spirit.
                            20 Despise not prophesyings.
                            21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
                            22 Abstain from all appearance of evil
                            .
                            Kevin, you have consistently broken (along with your SDA leaders) broken my "Apologetic Axiom 1":
                            Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

                            I regret that you may not like that, but you are being inconsistent about the stuff your SDA leaders say. Do you suppose that THEY are lying to you? That is really a nasty situation they have placed you in. You see, the choice you really have is to obey your leaders, or obey Scriptures. What I demonstrated here is that there can be no reconciliation of what the official doctrine of the SDA really is, and what Scripture actually says.

                            Make your choice, Kevin: Is it Ellen or the Scriptures in their context?
                            Last edited by TheWholeGospel; 10-11-15, 06:04 PM.
                            "I want the truth!"
                            "You can't handle the truth!"

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by TheWholeGospel View Post
                              It is present tense, John. It describes the Gospel era--not the Old Testament prophets. I will stop here, for, if you cannot see that it is present tense, nothing else that I can say will make any difference.
                              Roma 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, [let us prophesy] according to the proportion of faith;

                              1Cor 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with [her] head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
                              1Cor 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
                              1Cor 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
                              29 [Are] all apostles? [are] all prophets? [are] all teachers? [are] all workers of miracles?
                              1Cor 13:2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
                              1Cor 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
                              1Cor 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual [gifts], but rather that ye may prophesy.
                              1Cor 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men [to] edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
                              1Cor 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater [is] he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
                              1Cor 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying [serveth] not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
                              1Cor 14:24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or [one] unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
                              1Cor 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
                              1Cor 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
                              1Cor 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
                              1Cor 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

                              Ephe 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
                              Ephe 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
                              Ephe 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

                              1The 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.

                              1Tim 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

                              Indeed, they are all present. If they were to continue, the proper tense would be either future, or present perfect.

                              For lack of Biblical evidence and exegesis, your assertions about Ellen ALL fail.

                              I noticed that you also neglected to address why your spiritual leaders cannot provide the evidence from the Bible that they says "supports Ellen as being a (ahem) prophet" ?
                              Are you going to say that "I need to be an adventist in order to make those out-of-context Scripture verses support Ellen as a prophet?"
                              MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

                              1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

                              2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

                              3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

                              4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by john t View Post
                                Indeed, they are all present. If they were to continue, the proper tense would be either future, or present perfect.
                                There is no expiration date on spiritual gifts.
                                Ephe 4:8 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
                                11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
                                12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
                                13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
                                For lack of Biblical evidence and exegesis, your assertions about Ellen ALL fail.

                                I noticed that you also neglected to address why your spiritual leaders cannot provide the evidence from the Bible that they says "supports Ellen as being a (ahem) prophet" ?
                                Are you going to say that "I need to be an adventist in order to make those out-of-context Scripture verses support Ellen as a prophet?"
                                Now, regarding the future projection of the gift of prophecy, see Revelation 12:17; 19:10; 22:9.
                                Last edited by TheWholeGospel; 10-12-15, 01:12 PM.
                                "I want the truth!"
                                "You can't handle the truth!"

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X