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John T Have you ever asked for the positive reasons Adventists have for their belief?

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  • John T Have you ever asked for the positive reasons Adventists have for their belief?

    John T, thank you for inviting me to this forum.

    Here is what I would like to discuss:

    Have you ever asked for the positive reasons that Seventh-day Adventists have for their beliefs? In other words, could you approach me, a Seventh-day Adventist pastor, and ask me: "Why do you believe that Christians should be baptized?" or any other question about what we believe and practice.

    Another question might be: "Why do you believe that you should wash feet when you eat the Lord's Supper?"

    So, for discussion sake, phrase a question about our beliefs in this non-adversarial format and give me a chance to respond.

    Deal?
    Last edited by TheWholeGospel; 09-03-15, 06:27 PM.

  • john t
    replied
    Originally posted by emilynghiem View Post
    Dear john t in Romans, there are verses that tell us not to judge others for festivals or days held to be holy.
    For some reason, God may give different traditions to different tribes as their way of showing respect.
    Some show respect by covering their heads.
    Some show respect by praying 5 times a day.
    Some by refraining from intoxication or meat eating,
    Example: Jehovah's Witnesses abstain from celebrating manmade holidays
    and from partaking in blood based procedures they deem to be consuming blood and unclean or against God's laws.

    Whatever God gives different tribes to follow, we can respect that
    as long as it does not violate civil laws and authority, such as sacrificing
    animals or abusing children for example.

    So as long as it is not illegal to wash feet, that is not breaking laws about obedience to civil authority.

    True, it's not a "condition of salvation"
    but forgiveness is a required step.

    So let this NOT become a "stumbling block"
    that causes one neighbor not to forgive another.

    Let us agree it is not a condition on salvation
    but forgiving and correcting anything wrong is necessary that
    would otherwise cause our relations to fall out of grace and harmony with God's truth through Christ.
    I am requesting that this thread be closed as it is supposed to be between Kevin and myself. Take up the diuscussion, yourself, elsewhere.

    Meanwhile IMP, there is NOTHING positive about the SDA beliefs. Its foundations are full of heresy, and it is a semi-Plagian cult.

    Leave a comment:


  • emilynghiem
    replied
    Dear john t in Romans, there are verses that tell us not to judge others for festivals or days held to be holy.
    For some reason, God may give different traditions to different tribes as their way of showing respect.
    Some show respect by covering their heads.
    Some show respect by praying 5 times a day.
    Some by refraining from intoxication or meat eating,
    Example: Jehovah's Witnesses abstain from celebrating manmade holidays
    and from partaking in blood based procedures they deem to be consuming blood and unclean or against God's laws.

    Whatever God gives different tribes to follow, we can respect that
    as long as it does not violate civil laws and authority, such as sacrificing
    animals or abusing children for example.

    So as long as it is not illegal to wash feet, that is not breaking laws about obedience to civil authority.

    True, it's not a "condition of salvation"
    but forgiveness is a required step.

    So let this NOT become a "stumbling block"
    that causes one neighbor not to forgive another.

    Let us agree it is not a condition on salvation
    but forgiving and correcting anything wrong is necessary that
    would otherwise cause our relations to fall out of grace and harmony with God's truth through Christ.

    Leave a comment:


  • UnionofGrace&Nature
    replied
    Originally posted by TheWholeGospel View Post
    John T, thank you for inviting me to this forum.

    Here is what I would like to discuss:

    Have you ever asked for the positive reasons that Seventh-day Adventists have for their beliefs? In other words, could you approach me, a Seventh-day Adventist pastor, and ask me: "Why do you believe that Christians should be baptized?" or any other question about what we believe and practice.

    Another question might be: "Why do you believe that you should wash feet when you eat the Lord's Supper?"

    So, for discussion sake, phrase a question about our beliefs in this non-adversarial format and give me a chance to respond.

    Deal?
    I have one question about SDA beliefs. Why did your church take on the name of SDA in light of Luke 6:1-5 wherein the Sabbath was fulfilled by Christ and He permitted His disciples (and by extension all believers) to violate the Sabbath Law?

    Leave a comment:


  • Bob Carabbio
    replied
    Originally posted by TheWholeGospel View Post
    John T, thank you for inviting me to this forum.

    Here is what I would like to discuss:

    Have you ever asked for the positive reasons that Seventh-day Adventists have for their beliefs? In other words, could you approach me, a Seventh-day Adventist pastor, and ask me: "Why do you believe that Christians should be baptized?" or any other question about what we believe and practice.

    Another question might be: "Why do you believe that you should wash feet when you eat the Lord's Supper?"

    So, for discussion sake, phrase a question about our beliefs in this non-adversarial format and give me a chance to respond.

    Deal?
    Since there's ONLY ONE Question that really matters at all in "applied Christianity", then please explain in plain language the Mechanism whereby a Normal Human Being can become Born again of the Holy SPirit, freed from their SIN, and become a Child of God (John 1:12).
    Last edited by Bob Carabbio; 12-21-17, 10:57 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Daniel Marsh
    replied
    Private Debate with two people/post removed
    Last edited by CARM Admin; 10-13-17, 09:57 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheWholeGospel
    replied
    Originally posted by john t View Post
    I have many objections to all of that.

    Will respond later
    You wrote this in October of 2015. It is now June of 2016. When will "later" come?

    Leave a comment:


  • TheWholeGospel
    replied
    Originally posted by john t View Post
    I have many objections to all of that.
    Yes, of course you do. The only question is whether the Scriptures disagree with what I have stated--not you.

    Will respond later
    I believe you have in the public thread.

    Leave a comment:


  • john t
    replied
    Originally posted by TheWholeGospel View Post
    They are for the church. PERIOD. If you claim an expiration date for them,

    The context does not put an expiration date on the gifts of the Spirit.

    And now we move on to your THIRD attempt to negate what the New Testament says about the gift of prophecy. Here you go:

    Open thine eyes, John. These are prophecies that take the church to the end of time.

    You deny what the passage says and then ask me to follow your lead.

    Either you accept that God has promised to send prophets to His church when the Spirit chooses or you have your own standard apart from Scripture.

    I know what the Scriptures say. I have posted what the Scriptures say. I stick by them.
    I have many objections to all of that.

    Will respond later

    Leave a comment:


  • TheWholeGospel
    replied
    Attempt one: only OT, Attempt two: maybe NT; Attempt three: Jesus negates

    Originally posted by john t View Post
    You have STILL not addressed where in Scripture Paul says that the gifts of prophecy are for the future."
    They are for the church. PERIOD. If you claim an expiration date for them, you will need to demonstrate why Paul's statement is relegated only to the past. The context does not indicate they are only for the past.

    Ephe 4:11 (KJV) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
    12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
    13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
    Obviously, you neglected to read this part of my post, which shows things in context
    The context does not put an expiration date on the gifts of the Spirit. In fact, it shows their ultimate goal has not YET been reached.

    And now we move on to your THIRD attempt to negate what the New Testament says about the gift of prophecy. Here you go:

    .
    Hebrews 1:1:3 does not mention anyone prophesying anything after the writing of the NT
    .
    Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
    3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
    .
    The passage doesn't deal with any of the prophets in the New Testament OR Paul's statements about them. However, by your logic, the New Testament prophets weren't divinely inspired or to be heeded. That would be a misuse of the passage. Hebrews 1 is simply pointing to the greater revelation of God through Jesus over the revelation given by prophets of the Old Testament.

    Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
    ...
    . 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
    17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
    .
    Revelation 19: 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 1
    10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
    11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war
    I .
    I defy you to find ANYTHING in those verses which come straight from the KJV, and straight of the "Scripture supports" that you guys use to support EGW doing any prophesying.
    Open thine eyes, John. These are prophecies that take the church to the end of time.

    Face it Kevin the work of the leaders to concoct those things is popycock. iT IS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYONE ELSE being a prophet. Therefore, from your OWN sources, there is NO support for FB 18.
    You deny what the passage says and then ask me to follow your lead. I am sorry, John, but the New Testament does not limit the gift of prophecy to the Old Testament (your first contention), does not limit the gift of prophecy to the time of Paul (your second contention), nor does it cut off the gift of prophecy by Jesus' revelation (your third contention). The Spirit gives gifts according to His will (1 Cor. 12:11).

    Why are your leaders trying to pull the wool over your eyes on that one?
    You haven't listened to what the Scriptures say but have superimposed your first notion on them until I pushed you to widen your understanding by showing that the passages about the gift of prophecy are in the PRESENT. Then you tried to manufacture a test from Hebrews 1, and that supposed test would disallow all the prophets of the New Testament. I am sorry, John, but that will not do. Jesus speaks through "His servants the prophets"; they are possessed by "the Spirit of prophecy," which is "the testimony of Jesus" (Rev. 10:7; 19:10).

    Either you accept that God has promised to send prophets to His church when the Spirit chooses or you have your own standard apart from Scripture.

    And if they are trying to foll you there, there is almost a 100% guarantee that they are trying to fool you and other SDA people elsewhere. Don't cha think?
    I know what the Scriptures say. I have posted what the Scriptures say. I stick by them.
    Last edited by TheWholeGospel; 10-13-15, 09:46 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • john t
    replied
    Originally posted by TheWholeGospel View Post
    There is no expiration date on spiritual gifts.
    Ephe 4:8 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
    11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
    12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
    13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


    Now, regarding the future projection of the gift of prophecy, see Revelation 12:17; 19:10; 22:9.
    You have STILL not addressed where in Scripture Paul says that the gifts of prophecy are for the future."

    Originally Posted by TheWholeGospel

    I have one simple response: The giving of the gift of prophecy is not past in the statements of Paul.
    Obviously, you neglected to read this part of my post, which shows things in context

    .
    Hebrews 1:1:3 does not mention anyone prophesying anything after the writing of the NT
    .
    Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
    3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
    .
    Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
    ...
    . 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
    17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
    .
    Revelation 19: 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 1
    10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
    11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war
    I .
    I defy you to find ANYTHING in those verses which come straight from the KJV, and straight of the "Scripture supports" that you guys use to support EGW doing any prophesying.

    Face it Kevin the work of the leaders to concoct those things is popycock. iT IS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYONE ELSE being a prophet. Therefore, from your OWN sources, there is NO support for FB 18.

    Why are your leaders trying to pull the wool over your eyes on that one?
    And if they are trying to foll you there, there is almost a 100% guarantee that they are trying to fool you and other SDA people elsewhere. Don't cha think?

    Leave a comment:


  • TheWholeGospel
    replied
    Originally posted by john t View Post
    Indeed, they are all present. If they were to continue, the proper tense would be either future, or present perfect.
    There is no expiration date on spiritual gifts.
    Ephe 4:8 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
    11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
    12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
    13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
    For lack of Biblical evidence and exegesis, your assertions about Ellen ALL fail.

    I noticed that you also neglected to address why your spiritual leaders cannot provide the evidence from the Bible that they says "supports Ellen as being a (ahem) prophet" ?
    Are you going to say that "I need to be an adventist in order to make those out-of-context Scripture verses support Ellen as a prophet?"
    Now, regarding the future projection of the gift of prophecy, see Revelation 12:17; 19:10; 22:9.
    Last edited by TheWholeGospel; 10-12-15, 12:12 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • john t
    replied
    Originally posted by TheWholeGospel View Post
    It is present tense, John. It describes the Gospel era--not the Old Testament prophets. I will stop here, for, if you cannot see that it is present tense, nothing else that I can say will make any difference.
    Roma 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, [let us prophesy] according to the proportion of faith;

    1Cor 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with [her] head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
    1Cor 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
    1Cor 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
    29 [Are] all apostles? [are] all prophets? [are] all teachers? [are] all workers of miracles?
    1Cor 13:2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
    1Cor 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
    1Cor 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual [gifts], but rather that ye may prophesy.
    1Cor 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men [to] edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
    1Cor 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater [is] he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
    1Cor 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying [serveth] not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
    1Cor 14:24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or [one] unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
    1Cor 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
    1Cor 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
    1Cor 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
    1Cor 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

    Ephe 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
    Ephe 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
    Ephe 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

    1The 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.

    1Tim 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

    Indeed, they are all present. If they were to continue, the proper tense would be either future, or present perfect.

    For lack of Biblical evidence and exegesis, your assertions about Ellen ALL fail.

    I noticed that you also neglected to address why your spiritual leaders cannot provide the evidence from the Bible that they says "supports Ellen as being a (ahem) prophet" ?
    Are you going to say that "I need to be an adventist in order to make those out-of-context Scripture verses support Ellen as a prophet?"

    Leave a comment:


  • TheWholeGospel
    replied
    Originally posted by john t View Post
    That statement is so absolutely false and I really struggle to refrain from going snarky. Instead, I will tell you how to find it in the Englishman's Greek Concordance.
    It is present tense, John. It describes the Gospel era--not the Old Testament prophets. I will stop here, for, if you cannot see that it is present tense, nothing else that I can say will make any difference.
    Roma 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, [let us prophesy] according to the proportion of faith;

    1Cor 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with [her] head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
    1Cor 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
    1Cor 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
    29 [Are] all apostles? [are] all prophets? [are] all teachers? [are] all workers of miracles?
    1Cor 13:2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
    1Cor 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
    1Cor 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual [gifts], but rather that ye may prophesy.
    1Cor 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men [to] edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
    1Cor 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater [is] he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
    1Cor 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying [serveth] not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
    1Cor 14:24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or [one] unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
    1Cor 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
    1Cor 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
    1Cor 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
    1Cor 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

    Ephe 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
    Ephe 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
    Ephe 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

    1The 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.

    1Tim 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

    1) Look at all the all the times that the verb "prophesy" is used in the NT
    2) Using your seminary Greek, find the proper spelling of the future tense.
    3 Find the usages of it by Paul in its context relating to the GIFT of one making prophesy.
    .
    You are the one making that statement, Kevin, so it is you who has to back it up. If you can do it i will be will just be forced to admit that the Apostle Paul permitted the office of Prophet to continue in the NT. If on the other hand, there can be no evidence to back your statement up you will be forced to admit that your statement above has no basis in Scripture, and to teach that it is to be continuing is in fact, a heresy.
    .

    .
    That is a rather weak statement. If we read somewhere in Ellen's writings that she thought that pigs can fly, all that is necessary is for the one making that affirmative statement into a true statement is demonstrate that somewhere in DoA for example, she said "I believe that pigs can and do fly." (Facetious example, but it demonstrates my point) It does not take an "expert in SDA things" to make that sort of statement.
    .

    .
    Here is a part of your FIRST post on this thread:
    .


    You should notice that the questions you proposed were all subjective, "What do you believe" instead of "What does the Bible have to say about.........? You seemed to accept that correction of discussion. So on that basis, I think that we can both agree to these two statements regarding foot washing.
    .
    1) The SDA church practices foot washing.
    2) THE act of foot washing is NOT an ordinance because Jesus did not command it.
    .
    In that light you Seventh-day Adventists accept the Bible as the only source of our beliefs. We consider our movement to be the result of the Protestant conviction Sola Scriptura—the Bible as the only standard of faith and practice for Christians.
    http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/

    .
    Now it seems that you wish to examine FB 18:
    . . .
    the
    One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord’s messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested.
    . .
    Unfortunately, the "scripture tests" supplied by the writers of the SDA FB 18 fail that test
    .
    The prophecy of Joel 2 is fulfilled in Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judæa, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
    .
    15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
    16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
    17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy.....
    .
    So the APOSTLE PETER makes it absolutely clear that om this particular SUNDAY the 50th day after the last day of the Passover Seder on the Sabbath that Holy spirit established the Church of Jesus Christ upon the Earth. Therefore both Joel and Acts do not support FB 18 in any way.
    .
    Hebrews 1:1:3 does not mention anyone prophesying anything after the writing of the NT
    .
    Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
    3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
    .
    Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
    ...
    . 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
    17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
    .
    Revelation 19: 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 1
    10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
    11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war
    I .
    I defy you to find ANYTHING in those verses which come straight from the KJV, and straight of the "Scripture supports" that you guys use to support EGW doing any prophesying.

    Face it Kevin the work of the leaders to concoct those things is popycock. iT IS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYONE ELSE being a prophet. Therefore, from your OWN sources, there is NO support for FB 18.

    Ya lost that round too. That is because I used "sola Scriptura" because I did use Scripture.



    I never said ANYTHING like that, You need to recant that statement, or else it is ANOTHER misquote [INDENT]

    .
    1The 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men. 16 Rejoice evermore. 17 Pray without ceasing. 18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
    19 Quench not the Spirit.
    20 Despise not prophesyings.
    21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
    22 Abstain from all appearance of evil
    .
    Kevin, you have consistently broken (along with your SDA leaders) broken my "Apologetic Axiom 1":
    Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

    I regret that you may not like that, but you are being inconsistent about the stuff your SDA leaders say. Do you suppose that THEY are lying to you? That is really a nasty situation they have placed you in. You see, the choice you really have is to obey your leaders, or obey Scriptures. What I demonstrated here is that there can be no reconciliation of what the official doctrine of the SDA really is, and what Scripture actually says.

    Make your choice, Kevin: Is it Ellen or the Scriptures in their context?
    Last edited by TheWholeGospel; 10-11-15, 05:04 PM.

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  • john t
    replied
    Originally posted by TheWholeGospel View Post
    I have one simple response: The giving of the gift of prophecy is not past in the statements of Paul.
    That statement is so absolutely false and I really struggle to refrain from going snarky. Instead, I will tell you how to find it in the Englishman's Greek Concordance.
    .
    1) Look at all the all the times that the verb "prophesy" is used in the NT
    2) Using your seminary Greek, find the proper spelling of the future tense.
    3 Find the usages of it by Paul in its context relating to the GIFT of one making prophesy.
    .
    You are the one making that statement, Kevin, so it is you who has to back it up. If you can do it i will be will just be forced to admit that the Apostle Paul permitted the office of Prophet to continue in the NT. If on the other hand, there can be no evidence to back your statement up you will be forced to admit that your statement above has no basis in Scripture, and to teach that it is to be continuing is in fact, a heresy.
    .
    When it comes to the Biblical reasons for what Seventh-day Adventists believe, who is the expert--the one who has taught Adventist beliefs for thirty years or the one who has recently tangentially encountered them? I think you can find it in your heart to recognize that you are not an expert on Seventh-day Adventist beliefs.
    .
    That is a rather weak statement. If we read somewhere in Ellen's writings that she thought that pigs can fly, all that is necessary is for the one making that affirmative statement into a true statement is demonstrate that somewhere in DoA for example, she said "I believe that pigs can and do fly." (Facetious example, but it demonstrates my point) It does not take an "expert in SDA things" to make that sort of statement.
    .
    We started this thread because you, in effect, said: "OK. You say I'm not willing to listen. I will show you that I am. Let's have a special format so this can take place." Learning cannot be crammed down someone's throat, so, yes, I focus on your willingness to listen so that learning can take place.
    .
    Here is a part of your FIRST post on this thread:
    .
    John T, thank you for inviting me to this forum. Here is what I would like to discuss: Have you ever asked for the positive reasons that Seventh-day Adventists have for their beliefs? In other words, could you approach me, a Seventh-day Adventist pastor, and ask me: "Why do you believe that Christians should be baptized?" or any other question about what we believe and practice. Another question might be: "Why do you believe that you should wash feet when you eat the Lord's Supper?" So, for discussion sake, phrase a question about our beliefs in this non-adversarial format and give me a chance to respond.
    You should notice that the questions you proposed were all subjective, "What do you believe" instead of "What does the Bible have to say about.........? You seemed to accept that correction of discussion. So on that basis, I think that we can both agree to these two statements regarding foot washing.
    .
    1) The SDA church practices foot washing.
    2) THE act of foot washing is NOT an ordinance because Jesus did not command it.
    .
    In that light you Seventh-day Adventists accept the Bible as the only source of our beliefs. We consider our movement to be the result of the Protestant conviction Sola Scriptura—the Bible as the only standard of faith and practice for Christians.
    http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/

    .
    Now it seems that you wish to examine FB 18:
    . . .
    the
    One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord’s messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested.
    . .
    Unfortunately, the "scripture tests" supplied by the writers of the SDA FB 18 fail that test
    .
    The prophecy of Joel 2 is fulfilled in Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judæa, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
    .
    15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
    16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
    17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy.....
    .
    So the APOSTLE PETER makes it absolutely clear that om this particular SUNDAY the 50th day after the last day of the Passover Seder on the Sabbath that Holy spirit established the Church of Jesus Christ upon the Earth. Therefore both Joel and Acts do not support FB 18 in any way.
    .
    Hebrews 1:1:3 does not mention anyone prophesying anything after the writing of the NT
    .
    Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
    3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
    .
    Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
    ...
    . 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
    17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
    .
    Revelation 19: 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 1
    10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
    11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war
    I .
    I defy you to find ANYTHING in those verses which come straight from the KJV, and straight of the "Scripture supports" that you guys use to support EGW doing any prophesying.

    Face it Kevin the work of the leaders to concoct those things is popycock. iT IS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYONE ELSE being a prophet. Therefore, from your OWN sources, there is NO support for FB 18.

    Ya lost that round too. That is because I used "sola Scriptura" because I did use Scripture.



    I don't know yet how doing what Jesus said that His followers "ought" to do can get someone in trouble.
    I never said ANYTHING like that, You need to recant that statement, or else it is ANOTHER misquote


    1The 5:19 (RSV) Do not quench the Spirit,
    20 do not despise prophesying,
    I suggest that you look at the other verses in the NT, whether by Paul or John, that speak about the gift of prophecy. Search on "prophes*" and "prophet*"--there are many, and they speak of an ongoing gift within the NT church. Let me know when you have reviewed the pertinent Bible passages.
    .
    1The 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men. 16 Rejoice evermore. 17 Pray without ceasing. 18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
    19 Quench not the Spirit.
    20 Despise not prophesyings.
    21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
    22 Abstain from all appearance of evil
    .
    Kevin, you have consistently broken (along with your SDA leaders) broken my "Apologetic Axiom 1":
    Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

    I regret that you may not like that, but you are being inconsistent about the stuff your SDA leaders say. Do you suppose that THEY are lying to you? That is really a nasty situation they have placed you in. You see, the choice you really have is to obey your leaders, or obey Scriptures. What I demonstrated here is that there can be no reconciliation of what the official doctrine of the SDA really is, and what Scripture actually says.

    Make your choice, Kevin: Is it Ellen or the Scriptures in their context?

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