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Is Tithing For Christians?

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  • Is Tithing For Christians?

    PREFACE- OPENING POST

    Per Diane- CARM Admin, the following is a private debate between DaveC519 and Limey_Bob concerning the question: "Is Tithing For Christians?". I will argue in favor, Limey_Bob will argue against. Posts are limited to 500 words or less with a declared word count. One verse will be discussed at a time until it is mutually agreed to proceed to another. Each will begin with opening remarks and follow with rebuttal.

    Since I am arguing in favor, I will post my opening remarks first.

  • #2
    I believe tithing (giving 10% of one’s increase) is a command given to Christians in the NT based in large part on the following verse:

    “Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.” (1 Cor 9:14 KJV)

    “So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel.” (1 Cor 9:14 NASU)

    houtoos kai (“even so”) is variously rendered “so also” (NASU, YLT) or “in the same way” (NLT, ESV, NIV, CJB, TLB, NCV, RSV). It means that the precepts or maxims which preceded this statement are to serve as the pattern, manner and example for that which follows:

    ho Kurios dietaxen (“hath the Lord ordained”): dietaxen is third person singular aorist active indicative of diatasso. This verb appears sixteen times in the NT, and is variously rendered in the KJV as “command”, “appoint”, “ordain”, “set in order”, or “give order”. Other translations: “directed” (NASU, CJB, YLT), “ordered” (NLT), “commanded” (ESV, NIV, NCV, RSV), or “given orders” (TLB). It is used to convey a directive or commandment.

    In this verse, the Apostle Paul is saying that the Lord has issued a commandment that they who preach the gospel should live (literally) “out of the gospel” (ek tou euangeliou zeen), and they should do so based directly upon the pattern, manner and example which precedes this verse, which shall be examined shortly. Those who are to receive this maintenance are they who “preach the gospel”, the ministers of Christ in the NT era.

    This directive which the Lord issued is clear, it is concise, and it is most certainly a commandment.

    (WORD COUNT = 275)

    Comment


    • #3
      [SIZE=3]OPENING STATEMENT[/SIZE]



      Firstly Scripture alone must define our terms, otherwise if Dave and myself and are permitted to invent our own definitions to suit our personal prejudices then, any dialogue between us is impossible.

      Secondly, Dave is mistaken in claiming that the tithe was 10%. The tithe is a tenth; see Leviticus 27:32. So if a farmer had twelve newborn lambs then one would be a tithe. If he had seventeen newborn lambs then he gave one and if he had twenty-five newborn lambs then he gave two.

      Thirdly, only landowners and the owners of flocks, trees and anything else producing food from the soil (but not from the sea) paid the tithe, which was in agricultural produce. Notice that Leviticus 27:30 excludes fish and birds from the tithe. The reason for this was that there is some connection to the curse upon the land (from which the tree of good and evil grew) re ‘cursed is the ground for your sake’ Genesis 3:17. So fishermen did not pay a tithe on their catch, it was exempt from tithing.

      Fourthly, all who qualified for the tithe (which excluded paid farm labourers, builders, carpenters and others who did not own any produce from the land), paid three tithes of a tenth each: (A) The Ma’aser Rishon (Levite tithe) see Numbers 18:20-21 which was to be taken by the producer directly to the 48 Levitical cities (Numbers 35:7) in years one to six of the seven year cycle, which was called the Shemitah. (B) The Ma’aser Sheni (Festival Tithe) see Deuteronomy 14:22-26, a second tenth, used for celebrating the festivals, collected on years one and two and four and five of the Shemitah. (C) The Ma’aser Ani (Poor Tithe), see Deuteronomy 14:28-29 a third tenth collected for the widows, orphans, gentiles in their midst who were in want. This was collected on the third and sixth year of the Shemitah. So if I had 15 new born lambs and 88 bushels of barley for six years; then my tithes (plural) would be two lambs and sixteen bushels of barley for each of these six years. On the seventh year as well as the year of jubilee which was every 50 years, the land was fallow and I paid no tithe. Hebrews would also pay on the first six years of the Shemitah, an additional ‘heave offering’ (Terumah Gedolah) of between 1/40th and 1/60th on certain crops directly to the priest, and a half shekel coin; so in total as a percentage the tithe was approximately 22%. More if you consider that you could not harvest the edges of your own field and that anything which fell off your cart at harvest time, could not be picked up, but was left for the poor.

      Fifthly, Jesus stated clearly that tithing was a part of the Levitical law (Matthew 23:23). But the (ceremonial) law was annulled by Christ himself on the cross (Hebrews 7:18). So what churches call tithing today is completely unrelated to the Scriptures.


      Word Count: 500
      Last edited by Limey_Bob.; 08-02-12, 12:19 AM. Reason: spelling

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Limey_Bob. View Post
        [SIZE=3]OPENING STATEMENT[/SIZE]



        Firstly Scripture alone must define our terms, otherwise if Dave and myself and are permitted to invent our own definitions to suit our personal prejudices then, any dialogue between us is impossible.

        Secondly, Dave is mistaken in claiming that the tithe was 10%. The tithe is a tenth; see Leviticus 27:32. So if a farmer had twelve newborn lambs then one would be a tithe. If he had seventeen newborn lambs then he gave one and if he had twenty-five newborn lambs then he gave two.

        Thirdly, only landowners and the owners of flocks, trees and anything else producing food from the soil (but not from the sea) paid the tithe, which was in agricultural produce. Notice that Leviticus 27:30 excludes fish and birds from the tithe. The reason for this was that there is some connection to the curse upon the land (from which the tree of good and evil grew) re ‘cursed is the ground for your sake’ Genesis 3:17. So fishermen did not pay a tithe on their catch, it was exempt from tithing.

        Fourthly, all who qualified for the tithe (which excluded paid farm labourers, builders, carpenters and others who did not own any produce from the land), paid three tithes of a tenth each: (A) The Ma’aser Rishon (Levite tithe) see Numbers 18:20-21 which was to be taken by the producer directly to the 48 Levitical cities (Numbers 35:7) in years one to six of the seven year cycle, which was called the Shemitah. (B) The Ma’aser Sheni (Festival Tithe) see Deuteronomy 14:22-26, a second tenth, used for celebrating the festivals, collected on years one and two and four and five of the Shemitah. (C) The Ma’aser Ani (Poor Tithe), see Deuteronomy 14:28-29 a third tenth collected for the widows, orphans, gentiles in their midst who were in want. This was collected on the third and sixth year of the Shemitah. So if I had 15 new born lambs and 88 bushels of barley for six years; then my tithes (plural) would be two lambs and sixteen bushels of barley for each of these six years. On the seventh year as well as the year of jubilee which was every 50 years, the land was fallow and I paid no tithe. Hebrews would also pay on the first six years of the Shemitah, an additional ‘heave offering’ (Terumah Gedolah) of between 1/40th and 1/60th on certain crops directly to the priest, and a half shekel coin; so in total as a percentage the tithe was approximately 22%. More if you consider that you could not harvest the edges of your own field and that anything which fell off your cart at harvest time, could not be picked up, but was left for the poor.

        Fifthly, Jesus stated clearly that tithing was a part of the Levitical law (Matthew 23:23). But the (ceremonial) law was annulled by Christ himself on the cross (Hebrews 7:18). So what churches call tithing today is completely unrelated to the Scriptures.


        Word Count: 500
        Per your request here: http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthrea...=1#post3188631, rebuttals will deal with one verse at a time. You said:
        Secondly, Dave is mistaken in claiming that the tithe was 10%. The tithe is a tenth; see Leviticus 27:32. So if a farmer had twelve newborn lambs then one would be a tithe. If he had seventeen newborn lambs then he gave one and if he had twenty-five newborn lambs then he gave two.

        I used “10%” as being literally 1/10, being 1 divided by 10. I do not disagree that in counting the tithe of the flocks, every “tenth” animal was marked as being “holy unto the Lord”. Nowhere is it indicated that whole animals should be divided, nor if the tithe was of the land, should a whole product (ear of corn, grape, etc.) be divided.

        (WORD COUNT = 135)
        Last edited by DaveC519; 08-02-12, 01:51 AM. Reason: corrected word count

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by DaveC519 View Post
          Per your request here: http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthrea...=1#post3188631, rebuttals will deal with one verse at a time. You said:

          I used “10%” as being literally 1/10, being 1 divided by 10. I do not disagree that in counting the tithe of the flocks, every “tenth” animal was marked as being “holy unto the Lord”. Nowhere is it indicated that whole animals should be divided, nor if the tithe was of the land, should a whole product (ear of corn, grape, etc.) be divided.

          (WORD COUNT = 135)

          Dave that was my opening statement, not my rebuttal, as I did not address any point of your post. If you'd like to start again, then I'd be happy if you would like to post your opening statement, mine next and then, your first rebuttal, I will then read your opening statement re your position on tithing and then your rebuttal and then post my first reply only to your rebuttal. Does this sound fair? Obviously I want to explain my position BEFORE any rebuttals, otherwise people will not have a clue as to what position I am arguing for or what I even believe about tithing. So likewise, I would assume that you too would like to explain what your position is before we then debate individual verses. I hope that this is fair to you.
          Last edited by Limey_Bob.; 08-02-12, 03:09 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Limey_Bob. View Post
            Dave that was my opening statement, not my rebuttal, as I did not address any point of your post. If you'd like to start again, then I'd be happy if you would like to post your opening statement, mine next and then, your first rebuttal, I will then read your opening statement re your position on tithing and then your rebuttal and then post my first reply only to your rebuttal. Does this sound fair? Obviously I want to explain my position BEFORE any rebuttals, otherwise people will not have a clue as to what position I am arguing for or what I even believe about tithing. So likewise, I would assume that you too would like to explain what your position is before we then debate individual verses. I hope that this is fair to you.
            That was my rebuttal to your opening post, dealing with the first verse.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by DaveC519 View Post
              That was my rebuttal to your opening post, dealing with the first verse.


              What do you want me to do now? Do I reply to your 275 word post or your 135 word post or both, or will you be posting an opening statement. Please tell me what I am expected to do? I was hoping for a MODERATED debate with rules, which would begin with opening statements, as I cannot argue with you if you have not told me clearly what your position actually is, but I am very anxious to be helpful and to comply; so what do you want me to do now? I don't see how we can debate tithing if you refuse to even define 'tithing' and you just spend your time trying to pick holes in my arguments, but I can't pick holes in your argument as you have not defined the term 'tithing' for me.
              Last edited by Limey_Bob.; 08-02-12, 05:18 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Limey_Bob. View Post
                What do you want me to do now? Do I reply to your 275 word post or your 135 word post or both, or will you be posting an opening statement. Please tell me what I am expected to do? I was hoping for a MODERATED debate with rules, which would begin with opening statements, as I cannot argue with you if you have not told me clearly what your position actually is, but I am very anxious to be helpful and to comply; so what do you want me to do now? I don't see how we can debate tithing if you refuse to even define 'tithing' and you just spend your time trying to pick holes in my arguments, but I can't pick holes in your argument as you have not defined the term 'tithing' for me.
                My opening statement was here: http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthrea...=1#post3196908, and in it, I defined "tithing" as "giving 10% of one's increase". I also stated in that post my belief that the Lord's commandment concerning NT tithing is based in part on 1Cor 9:14.

                I do have more verses and passages I'd like to introduce, but apparently I misunderstood your request to deal with one verse at a time as applying to each post, not just a rebuttal. Is this correct?

                This post here: http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthrea...=1#post3204542 was the comment/rebuttal to the first verse you offered.

                If you have a website you'd like to suggest which offers standardized rules for written debate, that would be helpful. Thank you.

                (WORD COUNT = 112)

                Comment


                • #9
                  [SIZE=3]My Response to Dave’s First Rebuttal.[/SIZE]


                  Dave said: I defined "tithing" as "giving 10% of one's increase.

                  My reply: (point 6): You have offered no scriptural backing to this definition and neither have you defined precisely what ‘increase’ is. If I catch ten fish then do I have to tithe one fish? If I clip my toe nails or cut my hair, then do I have to tithe a tenth of these? Please answer this question. Your definition is extremely vague. I challenge you to show me anywhere where the tithe was not AGRICULTURAL produce from the land (Leviticus 27:30). The four tithes (I did not have time to explain the Terumah Ma’aiser) was never money. However, if a man was physically unable or unwilling to take his Ma’aiser Rishon and Ma’aiser Ani (Levite and poor tithes) to one of the 48 Levitical cities. Then the tithe could be exchanged for money, the money given to the Levites via a friend, and the Levites would then transfer the money back into the tithe of agricultural produce. However, when they did this the man paying the tithe had to pay 1/8th instead of 1/10th on both of these tithes see Leviticus 27:31. To my knowledge the Festival tithe remained at a 1/10th as he was permitted to eat it apart from the priests if he could not physically get to the tabernacle or temple see Deuteronomy 14:22-26.



                  Dave said: I also stated in that post my belief that the Lord's commandment concerning NT tithing is based in part on 1st Corinthians 9:14.


                  My reply: (point 7): Dave, there is absolutely no mention of tithing here. This verse is simply saying that those who work in preaching, deserve to receive some appropriate payment. If you look at 1st Corinthians 9:13, it states how that the Levites and priests (in each of the 24 courses), received payment for their work in the temple. This was not full-time work or payment. Each of the 24 courses worked for about two weeks per years and then received payment approximate to two weeks wages. I am not accusing Dave of this, but in the United Kingdom, I know of pastors who claim endless perks such as; a huge manse, endless new PCs and laptops, a cleaning lady, car, full-time wage, pension, dental and private medical insurance for the pastor and his family, and holidays for the pastor and his family which are called missions and are paid for by the church, sometimes even private school fees. Paul is not alluding to all of these endless perks at 1st Corinthians 9:14 and neither is he even hinting at the tithe. I am not against full-time pastors receiving a full time wage. However, in the first century, pastors were mostly paid as day labourers, i.e. if they preached on Sunday, then their payment was just one days wage approximate to a farm labourers daily wage. Pastors in the first century did not get a manse, a silver chariot and team of horses, a stable boy, a weekly cleaning lady, the best togas for themselves and their family, school fees paid etc and just about everything else all paid for by the church out of a supposed tithe!


                  Word Count: 497 (excluding my quoting Dave).
                  Last edited by Limey_Bob.; 08-02-12, 04:03 PM. Reason: spelling corrections - my spelling is absolutely terrible

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Dave said: If you have a website you'd like to suggest which offers standardized rules for written debate, that would be helpful. Thank you.


                    My reply: I don't have a web site, but debate rules always follow the same pattern: firstly opening statements from both parties with the affirmative speaker usually going first. Then one question, or verse or topic asked by each speaker of the other speaker in turn, with each speaker asking his or her opponent an equal number of questions / verses / challenges. Then finally brief closing statements from both speakers in which new material or insights cannot be added; previous arguments are restated.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Statement two

                      STATEMENT TWO

                      As I alluded to in my opening statement, houtoos kai (“even so”, “in the same way”) of 1 Cor 9:14 serves as the hinge, so to speak, which connects that which was stated before it to that which is stated after. Whatever concepts, precepts or maxims are introduced before houtoos kai are to serve as the pattern, manner or example of that which follows.

                      What follows houtoos kai is a commandment from the Lord that they which preach the gospel should live out of the gospel. This commandment is fulfilled based upon the precepts introduced before houtoos kai. So, let’s examine what those precepts are:

                      The Apostle Paul begins the passage in 1Cor 9 making an appeal, first of all, for apostolic rights (vs. 1-6), but ultimately for the rights of ministers in general (vs. 14). He asserts those rights to maintenance (“the power to eat and drink”- vs. 4), appealing to the general examples of warriors, vinedressers, and shepherds. These all have a right to partake of the fruits of their labors (vs. 10). He then makes appeal to precepts found directly within the Law itself: oxen (vs. 9-10, see Deut 25:4), and the Levitical priesthood itself (vs. 13). The tithe (Num 18:21) was certainly included in these “things of the temple”, but not only tithes, but everything that was appointed to the priesthood (Nu 18:7-19; 5:9-10, Deut 18:3-4), which also included money (Nu 3:48; 2Ki 12:16).

                      Paul then ties the precepts and maxims of these examples (again, including the Levitical priesthood) directly to the Lord’s commandment for ministerial maintenance with the words houtoos kai (“even so”, “in the same way”). Therefore, NT ministerial maintenance is to be based upon the precepts found in the examples of vs. 1-13, including the system of tithes and offerings. And because Paul bases his assertions on the precepts of the examples, he establishes a paradigm which transcends and succeeds the examples themselves. The examples (such as the Levitical priesthood) can even “wax old and vanish away” (Heb 8:13), but the paradigm remains. Paul is consistent elsewhere in his application of this paradigm (Gal 6:6; 1Tim 5:17-18; 2Tim 2:6).

                      Two things are of note in this passage: 1)- although Paul says he did not exercise his rights for maintenance in the Corinthian congregation (12, 15), he nowhere abrogates those rights. If he did, the entire passage would be moot. 2)- this commandment- and the paradigm which supports it- was delivered to the church at Corinth (and by extension, to all Christians), which included Gentiles, of whom there were “not many wise, mighty or noble" (by implication- rich and/or landowners (1Cor 1:26 )”, but described them even as “foolish, weak, and base” (vs. 27-28). So the commandment for ministerial support is given to all, not simply to the rich and/or landowners. And this support is patterned after, according to Paul, the tithes and offering system of the Levitical priesthood, and that system included the giving of cash money.

                      (WORD COUNT = 495)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        [SIZE=3]My Response to Dave’s second statement[/SIZE]


                        My reply: (point 8): The agreed title of this debate is this: ‘Is Tithing For Christians?’ Will DaveC519 please confirm that this is the debate title?


                        My reply: (point 9): I am not against ministerial support, I said that I am in favour of it. However, that is not the debate which I agreed to participate in.


                        My reply: (point 10): Will you please respond to my point 7 in which I showed you how: 1st Corinthians 9:14 re: houtoos kai (“even so”, “in the same way”) refers directly back to verse 13, which used the example of the priests being paid for their work of approximately two weeks at the temple in tithe agricultural produce (and not money). The context for 1st Corinthians 9:13 is not full time work, its part-time service in the temple by the 24 courses of priests, who served about two weeks each. You are assuming that both verses 13 and 14 are speaking about money and full-time service. When in fact verse thirteen is speaking about the tithe which was exclusively agricultural produce (Leviticus 27:30) and not money, for part-time service of about two weeks in the temple by priests, levites, guards and even singers (Nehemiah 13:5).


                        My reply: (point 11): Will you please define the tithe for me. I cannot debate tithing unless you are willing to define the tithe for me. Do you regard it as money or agricultural produce. I also asked you if the tithe could be fish? Do you accept the Bible as the final arbiter of what the tithe is and how it is raised? Or do you believe that we can go outside of the Bible to modern American church traditions to determine the tithe for us. The fact that pastors in the New Testament were paid in money, but that the Tithe was exclusively agricultural produce, proves that the New Testament Church did not practice the Levitical system of three tithes of a tenth each: with the additional ‘heave offering.’ In the New Testament giving money replaced the Old Testament system of three tithes and offerings of agricultural produce.

                        My reply: (point 12): You said: “The examples (such as the Levitical priesthood) can even “wax old and vanish away” (Heb 8:13), but the paradigm remains.” My comment, this statement is absolutely NUTS! How can the Levitical priesthood be ‘annulled’ (Hebrews 7:18) and ‘Obsolete’ (Hebrews 8:13) and yet a ‘paradigm’ of it remains? This is simply Pentecostal double-talk using an invented non-scriptural term. It is contradictory to claim that something has completely vanished and been utterly annulled, yet a ‘paradigm’ of it still remains. Your words have absolutely no meaning, as you are now using language in a distinctly post-modern way which is unique to yourself. You might as well talk about a square circle or of the Sun being the moon.

                        Word Count: 475.
                        Last edited by Limey_Bob.; 08-02-12, 11:32 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The agreed title of this debate is this: ‘Is Tithing For Christians?’ Will DaveC519 please confirm that this is the debate title?
                          Yes.

                          I am not against ministerial support, I said that I am in favour of it. However, that is not the debate which I agreed to participate in.
                          QUESTION: who would fulfill the commandment for ministerial support?
                          ANSWER: The commandment for ministerial support found in 1Cor 9:14 is given to the church, therefore, it is the members of the church who would fulfill the commandment based upon the precepts and maxims found in the preceding examples, specifically, the appeal Paul makes to the example of the tithe and offering system of the Levitical priesthood in vs. 13.
                          CONCLUSION: It is the members of the church- Christians- who would fulfill the commandment for ministerial support through their giving of tithes and offerings. “Is Tithing for Christians?”- YES.

                          Will you please respond to my point 7 in which I showed you how: 1st Corinthians 9:14 re: houtoos kai (“even so”, “in the same way”) refers directly back to verse 13, which used the example of the priests being paid for their work of approximately two weeks at the temple in tithe agricultural produce (and not money). The context for 1st Corinthians 9:13 is not full time work, its part-time service in the temple by the 24 courses of priests, who served about two weeks each. You are assuming that both verses 13 and 14 are speaking about money and full-time service. When in fact verse thirteen is speaking about the tithe which was exclusively agricultural produce (Leviticus 27:30) and not money, for part-time service of about two weeks in the temple by priests, levites, guards and even singers (Nehemiah 13:5).

                          Your point is non-sequitur, for the commandment for ministerial support is for Christian ministers, not the Levitical priesthood. Christian ministers typically serve full time in one congregation. Therefore, the tithes and offerings of the members of each Christian congregation would go to their respective Christian ministers.

                          Will you please define the tithe for me. I cannot debate tithing unless you are willing to define the tithe for me.

                          The tithe is giving a tenth (10%) of one’s increase, as I previously defined it here:
                          http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthrea...=1#post3196908

                          and elaborated here:
                          http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthrea...=1#post3204542

                          Do you regard it as money or agricultural produce. I also asked you if the tithe could be fish?

                          In whatever way one is increased, a tithe is due.

                          Do you accept the Bible as the final arbiter of what the tithe is and how it is raised?

                          Yes.

                          Or do you believe that we can go outside of the Bible to modern American church traditions to determine the tithe for us.

                          No.

                          The fact that pastors in the New Testament were paid in money, but that the Tithe was exclusively agricultural produce, proves that the New Testament Church did not practice the Levitical system of three tithes of a tenth each: with the additional ‘heave offering.’ In the New Testament giving money replaced the Old Testament system of three tithes and offerings of agricultural produce.

                          You are correct, and you actually make my point. Paul did not institute the Levitical tithing system for Christians, he advocated Christian ministerial support based upon the Lord’s commandment, and making appeal to the underlying principle found in the example of the former system (1Cor 9:13), and that underlying principle was the tithe, defined as giving a tenth (10%) of one’s increase.

                          You said: “The examples (such as the Levitical priesthood) can even “wax old and vanish away” (Heb 8:13), but the paradigm remains.” My comment, this statement is absolutely NUTS! How can the Levitical priesthood be ‘annulled’ (Hebrews 7:18) and ‘Obsolete’ (Hebrews 8:13) and yet a ‘paradigm’ of it remains? This is simply Pentecostal double-talk using an invented non-scriptural term. It is contradictory to claim that something has completely vanished and been utterly annulled, yet a ‘paradigm’ of it still remains. Your words have absolutely no meaning, as you are now using language in a distinctly post-modern way which is unique to yourself. You might as well talk about a square circle or of the Sun being the moon.

                          In the spirit of civility, I ask that you refrain from employing pejoratives and/or ad hominems. Perhaps you'd like to re-phrase your last point.

                          (WORD COUNT = 266, excluding quotes)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            [SIZE=4][/SIZE][SIZE=4]Robert's Reply:
                            [/SIZE]

                            Dave you are steadfastly refusing to give any scriptural support for your position, you seem to assume that if you merely make a statement, then like the Pope by speaking ex-cathedra I must somehow accept your words. I also asked you: “do you accept the Bible as the final arbiter of what the tithe is and how it is raised?” Your reply was: “Yes.” But I see no attempt on your part to PROVE any of these claims from Scripture, your making statements does not constitute any proof.

                            Point 13: Under the Levitical system the people owning land paid three tithes and two offerings, each of the tithes was a tenth and the heave offering between 1/40th to 1/60th (see my fourth point for the numerous scriptural references). In total a person owning many fields, trees or animals would pay about 22% under the tithing system in exclusively agricultural produce, to the Levites in two tithes and one offering and to the priests in the other tithe and the other offering. Two tithes had to be taken to one of the 48 Levitical cities and the priests only ended up with about 3% of the payee’s food directly. So how can this paradigm of tithing be repeated in the New Testament Church, when the church according to you collects 10% not 22%, in money and not agricultural produce, in one tithe according to you and not three tithes and two offerings according to Scripture, collected weekly in the Church (1st Corinthians 16:2), but twice a year under the Old Testament system of tithing at the spring and fall harvests! With a 7th year (Exodus 23:10) and 50th Jubilee (Leviticus 25:10-11) Sabbath years rest from paying tithes, which no New Testament Church ever practised. Does your Church have a 7th and 50th year rest from tithing Dave, when no tithes are paid at all? If you don’t then tithing isn’t your paradigm at all!

                            Point 14: I asked you if the tithe could be fish, you said: In whatever way one is increased, a tithe is due.” Please will you provide scriptural evidence that fish were tithed. I have stated that Leviticus 27:30 states that the tithe is only the produce of the land, as God cursed the land (Genesis 3:17) and Christ as the bread from heaven (John 6:58) fulfils the tithe; which you by advocating tithing for today – consequently deny. So by teaching tithing you are actually teaching obedience to the Levitical law for justification, which places people under a curse: Galatians 3:10.

                            Point 15: 1st Corinthians 9:13-14, Paul states that pastors should get paid for their work, he uses temporary work in the temple as an illustration, the 24 courses worked for two weeks a year and got paid, including ushers, guards and singers (Nehemiah 13:5). You do pay the ushers and singers in your Church Dave? If you don’t then tithing is not your paradigm, you are simply making stuff up and calling it ‘tithing.’


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                            • #15
                              I have made a mistake. I hope that Dave will permit me to post this brief correction.


                              Correction: (point 16): Food was tithed (or offered) three times a year, not twice as I had said, or weekly, (Deuteronomy 16:16-17). Tithes were given at the feast of unleavened bread (spring harvest) and tabernacles (autumn harvest). The basket of firstfruits (bikkurim), which was 7 food items (Deuteronomy 8:8) plus wool (Deuteronomy 18:4) which points to Christ fulfilling the tithes and offerings, was given between these two feasts at the feast of weeks which was called Shavuot (Exodus 34:22).


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                              Last edited by Limey_Bob.; 08-03-12, 04:47 PM. Reason: I made a mistake

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