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Is Tithing For Christians?

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  • #16
    It appears you may be missing Paul’s point altogether.

    When he offered the examples he did, he intended for us to examine the underlying principle which is common in each example, and he tells us that is his intention (vs. 10). If we take the examples themselves at prima facie, then the only ones who would qualify for the ministerial support commanded in vs. 14 would be: warriors, vinedressers, shepherds (vs. 7), OXEN! (9), farmers (9), and the Levitical priesthood (13). But as Paul asks in verse 9, “Does God care about oxen?" Really? No! God COULD CARE LESS ABOUT OXEN! Then why did Paul reference it? So that we should care about oxen? Absolutely not! If God could care less about oxen, then why should we? We shouldn’t, and that’s not why Paul cited it. “For our sakes, no doubt, this is written”, Paul says. But why? Because Paul intended for us to look beyond the example prima facie and look for the underlying principle, the “precepts and maxims”.

    Paul first alludes to this underlying principle found in the general examples from every day life, and then sharpens his focus, finally arriving at the very specific example of the Levitical priesthood (13). However, his intention was not for us to get bogged down in the minutiae of the Levitical tithing system itself, but to understand the underlying principle behind it, and to apply that principle in fulfilling the Lord’s commandment in the NT. That underlying principle was the concept of the tithe. This concept, which even preceded the Law, was a very simple concept: a tenth. That’s it! Simply a tenth. And this simple concept undergird that which was codified in the Law- see Num 18:20-21.

    Those two verses were the very heart of the Levitical support system: the tithe. “In like manner”, those who preach the gospel should not have to do so of their own charges (vs. 7). If they have sown spiritual things among you- just like the Levitical priesthood did in the temple- then they should be able to reap carnal benefits, just like the priesthood did. And what were those carnal benefits? The tithe! And since the priesthood served no other purpose than to “sow spiritual things”, in like manner, those who preach the gospel among us should serve no other purpose.

    Now, simply because the Levitical priesthood was divided into 24 courses doesn’t mean the Christian ministry is. Christian ministry is not patterned after the Levitical system. A small congregation (1st ce. or today) typically has only one pastor who serves full time, and the members of that congregation are under commandment (vs. 14) to support that pastor “in like manner” as the Israelites supported their priesthood (vs. 13)- with the tithe. It was not necessary for Paul to encumber the Lord’s commandment with the minutiae of the old system, but to simply appeal to the underlying principle of it: the tithe (Num 18:20-21).

    (WORD COUNT = 491)

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    • #17
      Clarification (point 17): In this debate, I do not plan to go into the related issue of offerings. There were approximately 10-13 offerings, I do not wish to give the impression that my discussing two of them in my early posts and then two more in later posts meant that I am claiming that only these offerings existed.

      Point 18: The underlying principle at 1st Corinthians 9:13-14 is receiving payment for work given in God’s service and not paying the three Levitical tithes. So soldiers (verse 7), farmers (verse 10) and even Oxen treading the corn (verse 9), etc could all expect rightful payment for their work, the final example at verse 13 is the Levites, including porters, singers and guards, who as well as the priests rightfully received the tithe for work rendered at the temple (Nehemiah 13:5). The contest is these people (and the oxen) receiving payment for work, something which Dave has missed, as he’s trying to use these examples in order to extract money from people (and not pay them). It was a sin for gentiles to pay the three tithes, as gentiles living in the midst of Israel were completely forbidden from tithing under Levitical law (Deuteronomy 26:12 and 14:29). This was why Cornelius, was not permitted to tithe and could only give free-will offerings, even though he himself was a convert to Judaism (Acts 10:2). The tithing system cannot be the model for the New Testament system of free-will giving, as they are unrelated, tithing being exclusively for the Sons of Israel (Leviticus 27:34).

      Point 19: Dave has said that he's not interested in the minutia of the tithe; but absolutely nothing that he has said even relates to Levitical tithing other than his use of the word 'tithe' itself. It would be like Dave and I agreeing to discuss the musical works of Beethoven, but I then refuse to discuss anything other than Eminem who I assure you is really Beethoven as Beethoven was the model for Eminem’s music and so all of Eminem's music by that definition is essentially Beethoven. But I do not wish to study minutia such as the music itself, the notation, the notes, the musical score etc! This seems to be Dave’s approach to tithing, he uses the word ‘tithe,’ but then completely redefines the tithe as the absolute polar opposite to how it is presented in the Torah. The Torah says that the poor and temple singers received a tithe, but our ‘Uncle Scrooge’ claims that they should instead pay the tithe today. The Torah says that the tithe was agricultural produce paid three times a year (including the heave offering), but Dave claims that the tithe is money paid weekly (or monthly by direct debit). The Levitical tithe excluded fish, but Dave includes fish in his tithe. Dave’s logic reminds me of the Beatle’s Song: ‘Nowhere Man’ as having abandoned Scripture to define tithing, he’s theologically going absolutely nowhere.

      Word Count: 493
      Last edited by Limey_Bob.; 08-03-12, 10:02 PM.

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      • #18
        Dave said:That underlying principle was the concept of the tithe. This concept, which even preceded the Law, was a very simple concept: a tenth. That’s it! Simply a tenth. And this simple concept undergird that which was codified in the Law- see Numbers 18:20-21.' My Suggestion: Could we now, both examine this chapter please.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Limey_Bob. View Post
          Dave said:That underlying principle was the concept of the tithe. This concept, which even preceded the Law, was a very simple concept: a tenth. That’s it! Simply a tenth. And this simple concept undergird that which was codified in the Law- see Numbers 18:20-21.' My Suggestion: Could we now, both examine this chapter please.
          What we have here is a failure to communicate. And I think I finally see where the communication problem lies between us: you must think I'm saying Paul was advocating that Christians pay a LEVITICAL tithe, am I correct? Is that why you keep going back over the details of the LEVITICAL tithing system?

          No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying Paul was telling the Christians to pay their gospel ministers a TITHE, but not a LEVITICAL TITHE. There is a difference, because the Levitical tithing system was not the only tithe that ever existed.


          Previously, I said:

          And because Paul bases his assertions on the precepts of the examples, he establishes a paradigm which transcends and succeeds the examples themselves. The examples (such as the Levitical priesthood) can even “wax old and vanish away” (Heb 8:13), but the paradigm remains. Paul is consistent elsewhere in his application of this paradigm (Gal 6:6; 1Tim 5:17-18; 2Tim 2:6).

          That new paradigm was a Christian tithe, NOT the old Levitical tithe.

          (WORD COUNT = 170, excluding quote)

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          • #20
            Originally posted by DaveC519 View Post
            I'm saying Paul was telling the Christians to pay their gospel ministers a TITHE, but not a LEVITICAL TITHE. There is a difference, because the Levitical tithing system was not the only tithe that ever existed ....... That new paradigm was a Christian tithe, NOT the old Levitical tithe.

            Point 20: OK I now understand your position. Thank-you David, for eventually explaining what it is that you happen to believe about tithing. So we are now in complete agreement that the Levitical tithing system does not apply (1) to Christians, (2) for today? I also assume that you agree with me that tithing (3) has been 'annulled' (Hebrews 7:18), by Christ's death and resurrection. So will you confirm these three questions of mine so that we can then move on. When these questions are answered by you, then I’ll have no need to return endlessly to the Levitical tithe laws.

            Point 21: Would you please show me a verse which teaches, or commands the Christian tithe. In fact, would you please list every verse which states this claim of your so that I can now examine every single verse which teaches ‘Christian tithing.’ Or is Christian tithing not taught in Scripture, but it’s just another man-made 20th Century Pentecostal tradition, with no scriptural basis (such as being slayed in the spirit), which you just read into the text? The word ‘tithe(s)’ is used seven times in the New Testament: Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42 and 18:12 in the context of sinful Pharisees, who were under God’s wrath, but who tithed in a man-made attempt to earn their salvation through their own good works. Tithing is also mentioned post-resurrection four times at Hebrews 7:5, 6, 8 and 9 in the context of the Old Covenant ceremonial law having been annulled (Hebrews 7:18), having been made obsolete (Hebrews 8:13), due to a change in the law (Hebrews 7:12). I would shocked, if you were to use any one of these seven passages.

            Point 22: Why did YOU even quote Numbers 18:20-21 (for Scriptural support), if you believe that the Christian tithe is completely unrelated to the Levitical law system?

            Point 23: Charles Manson, the serial killer would take passages from the Bible and then read his weird beliefs into those passages. For instance, at Revelation 9:8 we read of Apollyon’s (Satan’s) helpers that: ‘they had hair like women’s hair.’ So, Charlie argued that this verse was actually speaking about The Beatles, as they had long hair and were very famous in the late 1960’s. Now I do hope that when you do show me proof for this ‘Christian tithe’ of yours, that your hermeneutic will not as weak as Charlie Manson’s! I’m expecting better from you Dave! Define what Christian tithing is, straight out of the Bible, and don’t impose your own prejudice upon the text as Charlie did. Otherwise I’ll promise write to him and ask him to award you an honorary doctorate from the Charlie Boy Manson School of Systematic Theology (San Quentin Prison Faculty). So please don’t show me a verse such as 1st Corinthians 16:2 which is speaking about Biblical free-will giving and then make your entire argument that; we Pentecostals call this .… ‘the Christian Tithe.’ As even Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses can argue more intelligently than that.


            Word Count 500
            Last edited by Limey_Bob.; 08-04-12, 03:44 AM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Limey_Bob. View Post
              Point 20: OK I now understand your position. Thank-you David, for eventually explaining what it is that you happen to believe about tithing. So we are now in complete agreement that the Levitical tithing system does not apply (1) to Christians, (2) for today? I also assume that you agree with me that tithing (3) has been 'annulled' (Hebrews 7:18), by Christ's death and resurrection. So will you confirm these three questions of mine so that we can then move on. When these questions are answered by you, then I’ll have no need to return endlessly to the Levitical tithe laws.

              Point 21: Would you please show me a verse which teaches, or commands the Christian tithe. In fact, would you please list every verse which states this claim of your so that I can now examine every single verse which teaches ‘Christian tithing.’ Or is Christian tithing not taught in Scripture, but it’s just another man-made 20th Century Pentecostal tradition, with no scriptural basis (such as being slayed in the spirit), which you just read into the text? The word ‘tithe(s)’ is used seven times in the New Testament: Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42 and 18:12 in the context of sinful Pharisees, who were under God’s wrath, but who tithed in a man-made attempt to earn their salvation through their own good works. Tithing is also mentioned post-resurrection four times at Hebrews 7:5, 6, 8 and 9 in the context of the Old Covenant ceremonial law having been annulled (Hebrews 7:18), having been made obsolete (Hebrews 8:13), due to a change in the law (Hebrews 7:12). I would shocked, if you were to use any one of these seven passages.

              Point 22: Why did YOU even quote Numbers 18:20-21 (for Scriptural support), if you believe that the Christian tithe is completely unrelated to the Levitical law system?

              Point 23: Charles Manson, the serial killer would take passages from the Bible and then read his weird beliefs into those passages. For instance, at Revelation 9:8 we read of Apollyon’s (Satan’s) helpers that: ‘they had hair like women’s hair.’ So, Charlie argued that this verse was actually speaking about The Beatles, as they had long hair and were very famous in the late 1960’s. Now I do hope that when you do show me proof for this ‘Christian tithe’ of yours, that your hermeneutic will not as weak as Charlie Manson’s! I’m expecting better from you Dave! Define what Christian tithing is, straight out of the Bible, and don’t impose your own prejudice upon the text as Charlie did. Otherwise I’ll promise write to him and ask him to award you an honorary doctorate from the Charlie Boy Manson School of Systematic Theology (San Quentin Prison Faculty). So please don’t show me a verse such as 1st Corinthians 16:2 which is speaking about Biblical free-will giving and then make your entire argument that; we Pentecostals call this .… ‘the Christian Tithe.’ As even Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses can argue more intelligently than that.


              Word Count 500
              Well, this is unfortunate. I previously asked you politely to refrain from employing pejoratives and ad hominems when you did so here:
              http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthrea...=1#post3209797, but it appears you chose to ignore my request. Very unfortunate.

              Comment


              • #22
                Debate now closed.
                God Bless,
                Diane S

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