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Is Tithing For Christians?

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  • DaveC519
    started a topic Is Tithing For Christians?

    Is Tithing For Christians?

    PREFACE- OPENING POST

    Per Diane- CARM Admin, the following is a private debate between DaveC519 and Limey_Bob concerning the question: "Is Tithing For Christians?". I will argue in favor, Limey_Bob will argue against. Posts are limited to 500 words or less with a declared word count. One verse will be discussed at a time until it is mutually agreed to proceed to another. Each will begin with opening remarks and follow with rebuttal.

    Since I am arguing in favor, I will post my opening remarks first.

  • Diane S
    replied
    Debate now closed.

    Leave a comment:


  • DaveC519
    replied
    Originally posted by Limey_Bob. View Post
    Point 20: OK I now understand your position. Thank-you David, for eventually explaining what it is that you happen to believe about tithing. So we are now in complete agreement that the Levitical tithing system does not apply (1) to Christians, (2) for today? I also assume that you agree with me that tithing (3) has been 'annulled' (Hebrews 7:18), by Christ's death and resurrection. So will you confirm these three questions of mine so that we can then move on. When these questions are answered by you, then I’ll have no need to return endlessly to the Levitical tithe laws.

    Point 21: Would you please show me a verse which teaches, or commands the Christian tithe. In fact, would you please list every verse which states this claim of your so that I can now examine every single verse which teaches ‘Christian tithing.’ Or is Christian tithing not taught in Scripture, but it’s just another man-made 20th Century Pentecostal tradition, with no scriptural basis (such as being slayed in the spirit), which you just read into the text? The word ‘tithe(s)’ is used seven times in the New Testament: Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42 and 18:12 in the context of sinful Pharisees, who were under God’s wrath, but who tithed in a man-made attempt to earn their salvation through their own good works. Tithing is also mentioned post-resurrection four times at Hebrews 7:5, 6, 8 and 9 in the context of the Old Covenant ceremonial law having been annulled (Hebrews 7:18), having been made obsolete (Hebrews 8:13), due to a change in the law (Hebrews 7:12). I would shocked, if you were to use any one of these seven passages.

    Point 22: Why did YOU even quote Numbers 18:20-21 (for Scriptural support), if you believe that the Christian tithe is completely unrelated to the Levitical law system?

    Point 23: Charles Manson, the serial killer would take passages from the Bible and then read his weird beliefs into those passages. For instance, at Revelation 9:8 we read of Apollyon’s (Satan’s) helpers that: ‘they had hair like women’s hair.’ So, Charlie argued that this verse was actually speaking about The Beatles, as they had long hair and were very famous in the late 1960’s. Now I do hope that when you do show me proof for this ‘Christian tithe’ of yours, that your hermeneutic will not as weak as Charlie Manson’s! I’m expecting better from you Dave! Define what Christian tithing is, straight out of the Bible, and don’t impose your own prejudice upon the text as Charlie did. Otherwise I’ll promise write to him and ask him to award you an honorary doctorate from the Charlie Boy Manson School of Systematic Theology (San Quentin Prison Faculty). So please don’t show me a verse such as 1st Corinthians 16:2 which is speaking about Biblical free-will giving and then make your entire argument that; we Pentecostals call this .… ‘the Christian Tithe.’ As even Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses can argue more intelligently than that.


    Word Count 500
    Well, this is unfortunate. I previously asked you politely to refrain from employing pejoratives and ad hominems when you did so here:
    http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthrea...=1#post3209797, but it appears you chose to ignore my request. Very unfortunate.

    Leave a comment:


  • Limey_Bob.
    replied
    Originally posted by DaveC519 View Post
    I'm saying Paul was telling the Christians to pay their gospel ministers a TITHE, but not a LEVITICAL TITHE. There is a difference, because the Levitical tithing system was not the only tithe that ever existed ....... That new paradigm was a Christian tithe, NOT the old Levitical tithe.

    Point 20: OK I now understand your position. Thank-you David, for eventually explaining what it is that you happen to believe about tithing. So we are now in complete agreement that the Levitical tithing system does not apply (1) to Christians, (2) for today? I also assume that you agree with me that tithing (3) has been 'annulled' (Hebrews 7:18), by Christ's death and resurrection. So will you confirm these three questions of mine so that we can then move on. When these questions are answered by you, then I’ll have no need to return endlessly to the Levitical tithe laws.

    Point 21: Would you please show me a verse which teaches, or commands the Christian tithe. In fact, would you please list every verse which states this claim of your so that I can now examine every single verse which teaches ‘Christian tithing.’ Or is Christian tithing not taught in Scripture, but it’s just another man-made 20th Century Pentecostal tradition, with no scriptural basis (such as being slayed in the spirit), which you just read into the text? The word ‘tithe(s)’ is used seven times in the New Testament: Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42 and 18:12 in the context of sinful Pharisees, who were under God’s wrath, but who tithed in a man-made attempt to earn their salvation through their own good works. Tithing is also mentioned post-resurrection four times at Hebrews 7:5, 6, 8 and 9 in the context of the Old Covenant ceremonial law having been annulled (Hebrews 7:18), having been made obsolete (Hebrews 8:13), due to a change in the law (Hebrews 7:12). I would shocked, if you were to use any one of these seven passages.

    Point 22: Why did YOU even quote Numbers 18:20-21 (for Scriptural support), if you believe that the Christian tithe is completely unrelated to the Levitical law system?

    Point 23: Charles Manson, the serial killer would take passages from the Bible and then read his weird beliefs into those passages. For instance, at Revelation 9:8 we read of Apollyon’s (Satan’s) helpers that: ‘they had hair like women’s hair.’ So, Charlie argued that this verse was actually speaking about The Beatles, as they had long hair and were very famous in the late 1960’s. Now I do hope that when you do show me proof for this ‘Christian tithe’ of yours, that your hermeneutic will not as weak as Charlie Manson’s! I’m expecting better from you Dave! Define what Christian tithing is, straight out of the Bible, and don’t impose your own prejudice upon the text as Charlie did. Otherwise I’ll promise write to him and ask him to award you an honorary doctorate from the Charlie Boy Manson School of Systematic Theology (San Quentin Prison Faculty). So please don’t show me a verse such as 1st Corinthians 16:2 which is speaking about Biblical free-will giving and then make your entire argument that; we Pentecostals call this .… ‘the Christian Tithe.’ As even Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses can argue more intelligently than that.


    Word Count 500
    Last edited by Limey_Bob.; 08-04-12, 03:44 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • DaveC519
    replied
    Originally posted by Limey_Bob. View Post
    Dave said:That underlying principle was the concept of the tithe. This concept, which even preceded the Law, was a very simple concept: a tenth. That’s it! Simply a tenth. And this simple concept undergird that which was codified in the Law- see Numbers 18:20-21.' My Suggestion: Could we now, both examine this chapter please.
    What we have here is a failure to communicate. And I think I finally see where the communication problem lies between us: you must think I'm saying Paul was advocating that Christians pay a LEVITICAL tithe, am I correct? Is that why you keep going back over the details of the LEVITICAL tithing system?

    No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying Paul was telling the Christians to pay their gospel ministers a TITHE, but not a LEVITICAL TITHE. There is a difference, because the Levitical tithing system was not the only tithe that ever existed.


    Previously, I said:

    And because Paul bases his assertions on the precepts of the examples, he establishes a paradigm which transcends and succeeds the examples themselves. The examples (such as the Levitical priesthood) can even “wax old and vanish away” (Heb 8:13), but the paradigm remains. Paul is consistent elsewhere in his application of this paradigm (Gal 6:6; 1Tim 5:17-18; 2Tim 2:6).

    That new paradigm was a Christian tithe, NOT the old Levitical tithe.

    (WORD COUNT = 170, excluding quote)

    Leave a comment:


  • Limey_Bob.
    replied
    Dave said:That underlying principle was the concept of the tithe. This concept, which even preceded the Law, was a very simple concept: a tenth. That’s it! Simply a tenth. And this simple concept undergird that which was codified in the Law- see Numbers 18:20-21.' My Suggestion: Could we now, both examine this chapter please.

    Leave a comment:


  • Limey_Bob.
    replied
    Clarification (point 17): In this debate, I do not plan to go into the related issue of offerings. There were approximately 10-13 offerings, I do not wish to give the impression that my discussing two of them in my early posts and then two more in later posts meant that I am claiming that only these offerings existed.

    Point 18: The underlying principle at 1st Corinthians 9:13-14 is receiving payment for work given in God’s service and not paying the three Levitical tithes. So soldiers (verse 7), farmers (verse 10) and even Oxen treading the corn (verse 9), etc could all expect rightful payment for their work, the final example at verse 13 is the Levites, including porters, singers and guards, who as well as the priests rightfully received the tithe for work rendered at the temple (Nehemiah 13:5). The contest is these people (and the oxen) receiving payment for work, something which Dave has missed, as he’s trying to use these examples in order to extract money from people (and not pay them). It was a sin for gentiles to pay the three tithes, as gentiles living in the midst of Israel were completely forbidden from tithing under Levitical law (Deuteronomy 26:12 and 14:29). This was why Cornelius, was not permitted to tithe and could only give free-will offerings, even though he himself was a convert to Judaism (Acts 10:2). The tithing system cannot be the model for the New Testament system of free-will giving, as they are unrelated, tithing being exclusively for the Sons of Israel (Leviticus 27:34).

    Point 19: Dave has said that he's not interested in the minutia of the tithe; but absolutely nothing that he has said even relates to Levitical tithing other than his use of the word 'tithe' itself. It would be like Dave and I agreeing to discuss the musical works of Beethoven, but I then refuse to discuss anything other than Eminem who I assure you is really Beethoven as Beethoven was the model for Eminem’s music and so all of Eminem's music by that definition is essentially Beethoven. But I do not wish to study minutia such as the music itself, the notation, the notes, the musical score etc! This seems to be Dave’s approach to tithing, he uses the word ‘tithe,’ but then completely redefines the tithe as the absolute polar opposite to how it is presented in the Torah. The Torah says that the poor and temple singers received a tithe, but our ‘Uncle Scrooge’ claims that they should instead pay the tithe today. The Torah says that the tithe was agricultural produce paid three times a year (including the heave offering), but Dave claims that the tithe is money paid weekly (or monthly by direct debit). The Levitical tithe excluded fish, but Dave includes fish in his tithe. Dave’s logic reminds me of the Beatle’s Song: ‘Nowhere Man’ as having abandoned Scripture to define tithing, he’s theologically going absolutely nowhere.

    Word Count: 493
    Last edited by Limey_Bob.; 08-03-12, 10:02 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • DaveC519
    replied
    It appears you may be missing Paul’s point altogether.

    When he offered the examples he did, he intended for us to examine the underlying principle which is common in each example, and he tells us that is his intention (vs. 10). If we take the examples themselves at prima facie, then the only ones who would qualify for the ministerial support commanded in vs. 14 would be: warriors, vinedressers, shepherds (vs. 7), OXEN! (9), farmers (9), and the Levitical priesthood (13). But as Paul asks in verse 9, “Does God care about oxen?" Really? No! God COULD CARE LESS ABOUT OXEN! Then why did Paul reference it? So that we should care about oxen? Absolutely not! If God could care less about oxen, then why should we? We shouldn’t, and that’s not why Paul cited it. “For our sakes, no doubt, this is written”, Paul says. But why? Because Paul intended for us to look beyond the example prima facie and look for the underlying principle, the “precepts and maxims”.

    Paul first alludes to this underlying principle found in the general examples from every day life, and then sharpens his focus, finally arriving at the very specific example of the Levitical priesthood (13). However, his intention was not for us to get bogged down in the minutiae of the Levitical tithing system itself, but to understand the underlying principle behind it, and to apply that principle in fulfilling the Lord’s commandment in the NT. That underlying principle was the concept of the tithe. This concept, which even preceded the Law, was a very simple concept: a tenth. That’s it! Simply a tenth. And this simple concept undergird that which was codified in the Law- see Num 18:20-21.

    Those two verses were the very heart of the Levitical support system: the tithe. “In like manner”, those who preach the gospel should not have to do so of their own charges (vs. 7). If they have sown spiritual things among you- just like the Levitical priesthood did in the temple- then they should be able to reap carnal benefits, just like the priesthood did. And what were those carnal benefits? The tithe! And since the priesthood served no other purpose than to “sow spiritual things”, in like manner, those who preach the gospel among us should serve no other purpose.

    Now, simply because the Levitical priesthood was divided into 24 courses doesn’t mean the Christian ministry is. Christian ministry is not patterned after the Levitical system. A small congregation (1st ce. or today) typically has only one pastor who serves full time, and the members of that congregation are under commandment (vs. 14) to support that pastor “in like manner” as the Israelites supported their priesthood (vs. 13)- with the tithe. It was not necessary for Paul to encumber the Lord’s commandment with the minutiae of the old system, but to simply appeal to the underlying principle of it: the tithe (Num 18:20-21).

    (WORD COUNT = 491)

    Leave a comment:


  • Limey_Bob.
    replied
    I have made a mistake. I hope that Dave will permit me to post this brief correction.


    Correction: (point 16): Food was tithed (or offered) three times a year, not twice as I had said, or weekly, (Deuteronomy 16:16-17). Tithes were given at the feast of unleavened bread (spring harvest) and tabernacles (autumn harvest). The basket of firstfruits (bikkurim), which was 7 food items (Deuteronomy 8:8) plus wool (Deuteronomy 18:4) which points to Christ fulfilling the tithes and offerings, was given between these two feasts at the feast of weeks which was called Shavuot (Exodus 34:22).


    Word Count 77
    Last edited by Limey_Bob.; 08-03-12, 04:47 PM. Reason: I made a mistake

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  • Limey_Bob.
    replied
    [SIZE=4][/SIZE][SIZE=4]Robert's Reply:
    [/SIZE]

    Dave you are steadfastly refusing to give any scriptural support for your position, you seem to assume that if you merely make a statement, then like the Pope by speaking ex-cathedra I must somehow accept your words. I also asked you: “do you accept the Bible as the final arbiter of what the tithe is and how it is raised?” Your reply was: “Yes.” But I see no attempt on your part to PROVE any of these claims from Scripture, your making statements does not constitute any proof.

    Point 13: Under the Levitical system the people owning land paid three tithes and two offerings, each of the tithes was a tenth and the heave offering between 1/40th to 1/60th (see my fourth point for the numerous scriptural references). In total a person owning many fields, trees or animals would pay about 22% under the tithing system in exclusively agricultural produce, to the Levites in two tithes and one offering and to the priests in the other tithe and the other offering. Two tithes had to be taken to one of the 48 Levitical cities and the priests only ended up with about 3% of the payee’s food directly. So how can this paradigm of tithing be repeated in the New Testament Church, when the church according to you collects 10% not 22%, in money and not agricultural produce, in one tithe according to you and not three tithes and two offerings according to Scripture, collected weekly in the Church (1st Corinthians 16:2), but twice a year under the Old Testament system of tithing at the spring and fall harvests! With a 7th year (Exodus 23:10) and 50th Jubilee (Leviticus 25:10-11) Sabbath years rest from paying tithes, which no New Testament Church ever practised. Does your Church have a 7th and 50th year rest from tithing Dave, when no tithes are paid at all? If you don’t then tithing isn’t your paradigm at all!

    Point 14: I asked you if the tithe could be fish, you said: In whatever way one is increased, a tithe is due.” Please will you provide scriptural evidence that fish were tithed. I have stated that Leviticus 27:30 states that the tithe is only the produce of the land, as God cursed the land (Genesis 3:17) and Christ as the bread from heaven (John 6:58) fulfils the tithe; which you by advocating tithing for today – consequently deny. So by teaching tithing you are actually teaching obedience to the Levitical law for justification, which places people under a curse: Galatians 3:10.

    Point 15: 1st Corinthians 9:13-14, Paul states that pastors should get paid for their work, he uses temporary work in the temple as an illustration, the 24 courses worked for two weeks a year and got paid, including ushers, guards and singers (Nehemiah 13:5). You do pay the ushers and singers in your Church Dave? If you don’t then tithing is not your paradigm, you are simply making stuff up and calling it ‘tithing.’


    Word Count 498

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  • DaveC519
    replied
    The agreed title of this debate is this: ‘Is Tithing For Christians?’ Will DaveC519 please confirm that this is the debate title?
    Yes.

    I am not against ministerial support, I said that I am in favour of it. However, that is not the debate which I agreed to participate in.
    QUESTION: who would fulfill the commandment for ministerial support?
    ANSWER: The commandment for ministerial support found in 1Cor 9:14 is given to the church, therefore, it is the members of the church who would fulfill the commandment based upon the precepts and maxims found in the preceding examples, specifically, the appeal Paul makes to the example of the tithe and offering system of the Levitical priesthood in vs. 13.
    CONCLUSION: It is the members of the church- Christians- who would fulfill the commandment for ministerial support through their giving of tithes and offerings. “Is Tithing for Christians?”- YES.

    Will you please respond to my point 7 in which I showed you how: 1st Corinthians 9:14 re: houtoos kai (“even so”, “in the same way”) refers directly back to verse 13, which used the example of the priests being paid for their work of approximately two weeks at the temple in tithe agricultural produce (and not money). The context for 1st Corinthians 9:13 is not full time work, its part-time service in the temple by the 24 courses of priests, who served about two weeks each. You are assuming that both verses 13 and 14 are speaking about money and full-time service. When in fact verse thirteen is speaking about the tithe which was exclusively agricultural produce (Leviticus 27:30) and not money, for part-time service of about two weeks in the temple by priests, levites, guards and even singers (Nehemiah 13:5).

    Your point is non-sequitur, for the commandment for ministerial support is for Christian ministers, not the Levitical priesthood. Christian ministers typically serve full time in one congregation. Therefore, the tithes and offerings of the members of each Christian congregation would go to their respective Christian ministers.

    Will you please define the tithe for me. I cannot debate tithing unless you are willing to define the tithe for me.

    The tithe is giving a tenth (10%) of one’s increase, as I previously defined it here:
    http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthrea...=1#post3196908

    and elaborated here:
    http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthrea...=1#post3204542

    Do you regard it as money or agricultural produce. I also asked you if the tithe could be fish?

    In whatever way one is increased, a tithe is due.

    Do you accept the Bible as the final arbiter of what the tithe is and how it is raised?

    Yes.

    Or do you believe that we can go outside of the Bible to modern American church traditions to determine the tithe for us.

    No.

    The fact that pastors in the New Testament were paid in money, but that the Tithe was exclusively agricultural produce, proves that the New Testament Church did not practice the Levitical system of three tithes of a tenth each: with the additional ‘heave offering.’ In the New Testament giving money replaced the Old Testament system of three tithes and offerings of agricultural produce.

    You are correct, and you actually make my point. Paul did not institute the Levitical tithing system for Christians, he advocated Christian ministerial support based upon the Lord’s commandment, and making appeal to the underlying principle found in the example of the former system (1Cor 9:13), and that underlying principle was the tithe, defined as giving a tenth (10%) of one’s increase.

    You said: “The examples (such as the Levitical priesthood) can even “wax old and vanish away” (Heb 8:13), but the paradigm remains.” My comment, this statement is absolutely NUTS! How can the Levitical priesthood be ‘annulled’ (Hebrews 7:18) and ‘Obsolete’ (Hebrews 8:13) and yet a ‘paradigm’ of it remains? This is simply Pentecostal double-talk using an invented non-scriptural term. It is contradictory to claim that something has completely vanished and been utterly annulled, yet a ‘paradigm’ of it still remains. Your words have absolutely no meaning, as you are now using language in a distinctly post-modern way which is unique to yourself. You might as well talk about a square circle or of the Sun being the moon.

    In the spirit of civility, I ask that you refrain from employing pejoratives and/or ad hominems. Perhaps you'd like to re-phrase your last point.

    (WORD COUNT = 266, excluding quotes)

    Leave a comment:


  • Limey_Bob.
    replied
    [SIZE=3]My Response to Dave’s second statement[/SIZE]


    My reply: (point 8): The agreed title of this debate is this: ‘Is Tithing For Christians?’ Will DaveC519 please confirm that this is the debate title?


    My reply: (point 9): I am not against ministerial support, I said that I am in favour of it. However, that is not the debate which I agreed to participate in.


    My reply: (point 10): Will you please respond to my point 7 in which I showed you how: 1st Corinthians 9:14 re: houtoos kai (“even so”, “in the same way”) refers directly back to verse 13, which used the example of the priests being paid for their work of approximately two weeks at the temple in tithe agricultural produce (and not money). The context for 1st Corinthians 9:13 is not full time work, its part-time service in the temple by the 24 courses of priests, who served about two weeks each. You are assuming that both verses 13 and 14 are speaking about money and full-time service. When in fact verse thirteen is speaking about the tithe which was exclusively agricultural produce (Leviticus 27:30) and not money, for part-time service of about two weeks in the temple by priests, levites, guards and even singers (Nehemiah 13:5).


    My reply: (point 11): Will you please define the tithe for me. I cannot debate tithing unless you are willing to define the tithe for me. Do you regard it as money or agricultural produce. I also asked you if the tithe could be fish? Do you accept the Bible as the final arbiter of what the tithe is and how it is raised? Or do you believe that we can go outside of the Bible to modern American church traditions to determine the tithe for us. The fact that pastors in the New Testament were paid in money, but that the Tithe was exclusively agricultural produce, proves that the New Testament Church did not practice the Levitical system of three tithes of a tenth each: with the additional ‘heave offering.’ In the New Testament giving money replaced the Old Testament system of three tithes and offerings of agricultural produce.

    My reply: (point 12): You said: “The examples (such as the Levitical priesthood) can even “wax old and vanish away” (Heb 8:13), but the paradigm remains.” My comment, this statement is absolutely NUTS! How can the Levitical priesthood be ‘annulled’ (Hebrews 7:18) and ‘Obsolete’ (Hebrews 8:13) and yet a ‘paradigm’ of it remains? This is simply Pentecostal double-talk using an invented non-scriptural term. It is contradictory to claim that something has completely vanished and been utterly annulled, yet a ‘paradigm’ of it still remains. Your words have absolutely no meaning, as you are now using language in a distinctly post-modern way which is unique to yourself. You might as well talk about a square circle or of the Sun being the moon.

    Word Count: 475.
    Last edited by Limey_Bob.; 08-02-12, 11:32 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • DaveC519
    replied
    Statement two

    STATEMENT TWO

    As I alluded to in my opening statement, houtoos kai (“even so”, “in the same way”) of 1 Cor 9:14 serves as the hinge, so to speak, which connects that which was stated before it to that which is stated after. Whatever concepts, precepts or maxims are introduced before houtoos kai are to serve as the pattern, manner or example of that which follows.

    What follows houtoos kai is a commandment from the Lord that they which preach the gospel should live out of the gospel. This commandment is fulfilled based upon the precepts introduced before houtoos kai. So, let’s examine what those precepts are:

    The Apostle Paul begins the passage in 1Cor 9 making an appeal, first of all, for apostolic rights (vs. 1-6), but ultimately for the rights of ministers in general (vs. 14). He asserts those rights to maintenance (“the power to eat and drink”- vs. 4), appealing to the general examples of warriors, vinedressers, and shepherds. These all have a right to partake of the fruits of their labors (vs. 10). He then makes appeal to precepts found directly within the Law itself: oxen (vs. 9-10, see Deut 25:4), and the Levitical priesthood itself (vs. 13). The tithe (Num 18:21) was certainly included in these “things of the temple”, but not only tithes, but everything that was appointed to the priesthood (Nu 18:7-19; 5:9-10, Deut 18:3-4), which also included money (Nu 3:48; 2Ki 12:16).

    Paul then ties the precepts and maxims of these examples (again, including the Levitical priesthood) directly to the Lord’s commandment for ministerial maintenance with the words houtoos kai (“even so”, “in the same way”). Therefore, NT ministerial maintenance is to be based upon the precepts found in the examples of vs. 1-13, including the system of tithes and offerings. And because Paul bases his assertions on the precepts of the examples, he establishes a paradigm which transcends and succeeds the examples themselves. The examples (such as the Levitical priesthood) can even “wax old and vanish away” (Heb 8:13), but the paradigm remains. Paul is consistent elsewhere in his application of this paradigm (Gal 6:6; 1Tim 5:17-18; 2Tim 2:6).

    Two things are of note in this passage: 1)- although Paul says he did not exercise his rights for maintenance in the Corinthian congregation (12, 15), he nowhere abrogates those rights. If he did, the entire passage would be moot. 2)- this commandment- and the paradigm which supports it- was delivered to the church at Corinth (and by extension, to all Christians), which included Gentiles, of whom there were “not many wise, mighty or noble" (by implication- rich and/or landowners (1Cor 1:26 )”, but described them even as “foolish, weak, and base” (vs. 27-28). So the commandment for ministerial support is given to all, not simply to the rich and/or landowners. And this support is patterned after, according to Paul, the tithes and offering system of the Levitical priesthood, and that system included the giving of cash money.

    (WORD COUNT = 495)

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  • Limey_Bob.
    replied
    Dave said: If you have a website you'd like to suggest which offers standardized rules for written debate, that would be helpful. Thank you.


    My reply: I don't have a web site, but debate rules always follow the same pattern: firstly opening statements from both parties with the affirmative speaker usually going first. Then one question, or verse or topic asked by each speaker of the other speaker in turn, with each speaker asking his or her opponent an equal number of questions / verses / challenges. Then finally brief closing statements from both speakers in which new material or insights cannot be added; previous arguments are restated.

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  • Limey_Bob.
    replied
    [SIZE=3]My Response to Dave’s First Rebuttal.[/SIZE]


    Dave said: I defined "tithing" as "giving 10% of one's increase.

    My reply: (point 6): You have offered no scriptural backing to this definition and neither have you defined precisely what ‘increase’ is. If I catch ten fish then do I have to tithe one fish? If I clip my toe nails or cut my hair, then do I have to tithe a tenth of these? Please answer this question. Your definition is extremely vague. I challenge you to show me anywhere where the tithe was not AGRICULTURAL produce from the land (Leviticus 27:30). The four tithes (I did not have time to explain the Terumah Ma’aiser) was never money. However, if a man was physically unable or unwilling to take his Ma’aiser Rishon and Ma’aiser Ani (Levite and poor tithes) to one of the 48 Levitical cities. Then the tithe could be exchanged for money, the money given to the Levites via a friend, and the Levites would then transfer the money back into the tithe of agricultural produce. However, when they did this the man paying the tithe had to pay 1/8th instead of 1/10th on both of these tithes see Leviticus 27:31. To my knowledge the Festival tithe remained at a 1/10th as he was permitted to eat it apart from the priests if he could not physically get to the tabernacle or temple see Deuteronomy 14:22-26.



    Dave said: I also stated in that post my belief that the Lord's commandment concerning NT tithing is based in part on 1st Corinthians 9:14.


    My reply: (point 7): Dave, there is absolutely no mention of tithing here. This verse is simply saying that those who work in preaching, deserve to receive some appropriate payment. If you look at 1st Corinthians 9:13, it states how that the Levites and priests (in each of the 24 courses), received payment for their work in the temple. This was not full-time work or payment. Each of the 24 courses worked for about two weeks per years and then received payment approximate to two weeks wages. I am not accusing Dave of this, but in the United Kingdom, I know of pastors who claim endless perks such as; a huge manse, endless new PCs and laptops, a cleaning lady, car, full-time wage, pension, dental and private medical insurance for the pastor and his family, and holidays for the pastor and his family which are called missions and are paid for by the church, sometimes even private school fees. Paul is not alluding to all of these endless perks at 1st Corinthians 9:14 and neither is he even hinting at the tithe. I am not against full-time pastors receiving a full time wage. However, in the first century, pastors were mostly paid as day labourers, i.e. if they preached on Sunday, then their payment was just one days wage approximate to a farm labourers daily wage. Pastors in the first century did not get a manse, a silver chariot and team of horses, a stable boy, a weekly cleaning lady, the best togas for themselves and their family, school fees paid etc and just about everything else all paid for by the church out of a supposed tithe!


    Word Count: 497 (excluding my quoting Dave).
    Last edited by Limey_Bob.; 08-02-12, 04:03 PM. Reason: spelling corrections - my spelling is absolutely terrible

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