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For e v e & John t-- A discussion

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  • #76
    Originally posted by e v e View Post
    That was all triggered by a conversation with someone in apologetics who thinks he's a god. Same sort of delusion of self-given salvation. I got tired of explaining to him the fall was a downward fall. And he denied being Mormon...

    It's the same Delusion of the fall, that by knowledge we can gain self-given salvation, the idea that we can get ourselves out of the fallen state without His help.
    One reason that I recommended the book by Vos was it was Bible-based as well as systematic. The beauty of systematic theology is that it teaches us to go "this far" but not "That far" om what I have read of your posts is that you seem to "get lost in the woods" of speculation, and I take that as part of your disciplined thinking as an academic. Biblical Theology is perspicacious because it is self-defining, and the answer always lay in Scripture as opposed to anything else.
    MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

    1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

    2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

    3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

    4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by john t View Post

      One reason that I recommended the book by Vos was it was Bible-based as well as systematic. The beauty of systematic theology is that it teaches us to go "this far" but not "That far" om what I have read of your posts is that you seem to "get lost in the woods" of speculation, and I take that as part of your disciplined thinking as an academic. Biblical Theology is perspicacious because it is self-defining, and the answer always lay in Scripture as opposed to anything else.
      yes I see what your saying.

      Except I think that self-defining isn't self-evident, e.,g., in Vos, whose devices are transparently Greek, which is evident to me since I'm classically trained. They aren't based on scripture. 'Systematic' theology isn't Christian in my view.

      Comment


      • #78
        Systematic theology seems to me to be a diversion from God, to the text. From His Word to Human interpretation, as agreed upon by human authorities. Exactly what Luther was protesting....and what the protestant reformation was reforming.

        And, its methods and techniques are all based on Greek philosophy. Which is pagan. It would take many pages to delineate that, so I won't.

        I'm sure though...and I definitely saw the traces of this in Vos' text, which is why I didn't warm to it.

        It's the same problem I have with the Chicago statement, and I think, the same Problem Christ had with the pharisees.

        Theology is not scripture. That is my core point...

        I am open to hearing why you think I'm mistaken...of course.

        The 'demand' is that I conform to a bunch of human men, and their 'agreement' (Chicago or any other canon) on what scripture says. But, I read scripture myself. I am highly educated, and I can see what it says without being bullied by human institutional views that I feel have become corrupted.

        I really feel that I trust God and myself to read scripture without an overlay.

        Comment


        • #79
          It's why, at age 18, I left the Catholics. I found them abusive, cold, and oppressive, for me personally. It was a most horrid experience. I avoid anything that resembles them. Which to me all this does very much resemble their tendency. Yes, if you wish to you can choose the 'psychological reason.' LOL. But the psychological profile won't really work with me.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by e v e View Post
            It's why, at age 18, I left the Catholics. I found them abusive, cold, and oppressive, for me personally. It was a most horrid experience. I avoid anything that resembles them. Which to me all this does very much resemble their tendency. Yes, if you wish to you can choose the 'psychological reason.' LOL. But the psychological profile won't really work with me.
            I am the first to admit that I have deep resentment against the "Dispensational Date Setters" In 1988, on live TV on a Sunday Morning, I was substituting for the pastor, who was on vacation. The guest speaker was a fellow who got a fake doctorate (he admitted that when I pressed him on his credentials) and confidently asserted that Jesus would return in 1988 because some well-meaning engineer wrote a book with the title, 88 reasons why Jesus will return in 1988.

            Therefore I will not fault you for having "psychological reasons" why you believe something. Actually, it is healthy to know our psychological vulnerabilities.

            So, I ask you if you know what "systematic theology" actually is? In its most elemental form, systematic theology is a list of Scriptures all surrounding one subject. Here is an example about the Virgin Birth of Jesus:


            14 Reasons for the Virgin Birth

            1. To reveal the invisible God John 1:18; 14:9
            2. To fulfill prophecy Gen. 3:15
            3. To guarantee the Davidic covenant 2 Sam. 7:8–17; Luke 1:31–33
            4. To make a sacrifice for our sins Heb. 2:9; 10:4–5, 10, 12; 1 John 3:5; Mark 10:45
            5. To reconcile man to God 2 Cor. 5:19; Heb. 2:17; 1 Tim. 2:5–6
            6. To provide an example for believers 1 Pet. 2:21; 1 John 2:6
            7. To provide the believer with a high priest Heb. 2:17; 3:1
            8. To destroy the devil and his works Heb. 2:14; 1 John 3:8
            9. To escape the historical curse upon Adam’s seed Rom. 5:12
            10. To heal the brokenhearted Luke 4:18
            11. To set at liberty the bruised Luke 4:18
            12. To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord Luke 4:18
            13. To give abundant life John 3:36; 10:10
            14. To glorify the Father John 13:31; 14:13; 17:4


            Willmington, H. L. (1987). Willmington’s book of Bible lists (pp. 164–165). Wheaton, IL: Tyndale.

            Then authors like Louis Berkoff will expound on the subject and give an historical account of how the verses above were understood from the Early church Fathers until today. For example the systematic theologians will look at the OT verses in the above verses, and compare what prophet A, B and C all said, and they will attempt to help us see that the theology that we have now is all because we are privileged to "look over the shoulders of the giants"

            That they were able to arrange things in a taxonomy of a sort is not Greek thinking; instead it is how our mind works. It is like decision making: We look at all the possible angles for something and brainstorm the good and the absurd. The we take them and arrange them into distinct categories. After that, we weigh the pros and cons of the best choices, and we go with the one thing that is all-around best for us to do.

            It seems to be straight forward, and it is; so that is how theologians create systematic theology. Their primary source is Scripture, in its context, and in its original language, and they take those Scriptures, such as I listed above, and weave them into a Bible based narrative.

            Make sense?
            MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

            1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

            2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

            3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

            4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by john t View Post

              I am the first to admit that I have deep resentment against the "Dispensational Date Setters" In 1988, on live TV on a Sunday Morning, I was substituting for the pastor, who was on vacation. The guest speaker was a fellow who got a fake doctorate (he admitted that when I pressed him on his credentials) and confidently asserted that Jesus would return in 1988 because some well-meaning engineer wrote a book with the title, 88 reasons why Jesus will return in 1988.

              Therefore I will not fault you for having "psychological reasons" why you believe something. Actually, it is healthy to know our psychological vulnerabilities.

              So, I ask you if you know what "systematic theology" actually is? In its most elemental form, systematic theology is a list of Scriptures all surrounding one subject. Here is an example about the Virgin Birth of Jesus:


              14 Reasons for the Virgin Birth

              1. To reveal the invisible God John 1:18; 14:9
              2. To fulfill prophecy Gen. 3:15
              3. To guarantee the Davidic covenant 2 Sam. 7:8–17; Luke 1:31–33
              4. To make a sacrifice for our sins Heb. 2:9; 10:4–5, 10, 12; 1 John 3:5; Mark 10:45
              5. To reconcile man to God 2 Cor. 5:19; Heb. 2:17; 1 Tim. 2:5–6
              6. To provide an example for believers 1 Pet. 2:21; 1 John 2:6
              7. To provide the believer with a high priest Heb. 2:17; 3:1
              8. To destroy the devil and his works Heb. 2:14; 1 John 3:8
              9. To escape the historical curse upon Adam’s seed Rom. 5:12
              10. To heal the brokenhearted Luke 4:18
              11. To set at liberty the bruised Luke 4:18
              12. To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord Luke 4:18
              13. To give abundant life John 3:36; 10:10
              14. To glorify the Father John 13:31; 14:13; 17:4


              Willmington, H. L. (1987). Willmington’s book of Bible lists (pp. 164–165). Wheaton, IL: Tyndale.

              Then authors like Louis Berkoff will expound on the subject and give an historical account of how the verses above were understood from the Early church Fathers until today. For example the systematic theologians will look at the OT verses in the above verses, and compare what prophet A, B and C all said, and they will attempt to help us see that the theology that we have now is all because we are privileged to "look over the shoulders of the giants"

              That they were able to arrange things in a taxonomy of a sort is not Greek thinking; instead it is how our mind works. It is like decision making: We look at all the possible angles for something and brainstorm the good and the absurd. The we take them and arrange them into distinct categories. After that, we weigh the pros and cons of the best choices, and we go with the one thing that is all-around best for us to do.

              It seems to be straight forward, and it is; so that is how theologians create systematic theology. Their primary source is Scripture, in its context, and in its original language, and they take those Scriptures, such as I listed above, and weave them into a Bible based narrative.

              Make sense?
              John,
              I'm so very sorry I haven't replied sooner..Normally I would reply at least within a day. I've had chronic fatigue and have literally been so exhausted and found myself doing the minimal each day. Please don't worry. I'm an overall healthy person other than that and don't even take aspirin. It's just that my sleep is poor and I end up sleeping at odd times and then I'm tired and a vicious circle ensues. Partly the problem is that all the energy I have is spent on writing the dissertation, maybe 5 hours a day and that is very tiring since every single sentence requires research...I'm very slow and plodding that way academically and like to verify the things I say and doing that takes time. It's not as if I need a citation for every sentence. I just like to understand the ground where I am typing.

              Everything you wrote makes sense. Thank you. I think that for me, I use the methodology of simply reading, asking Him, and slowly comparing lines to other lines, and pondering the types and shadows presented, for myself. I don't have a specific methodology and feel comfortable that way.

              For example, I can read the line "I never knew you" to mean what I think it means, that literally, the person spoken to is of another realm, this one the fallen realm, a canaanite and not His soul, not of his Family. Nothing in scripture prevents the reading. No list of quotes prevents it either. However, agreement as to what 'fits' a preset belief then determines that my view is wrong, based on a hidden source not in scripture, which is the scholars involved. As you know, I don't believe that He came to save canaanites, be they gentiles or jews. He came to save His souls, who are the hebrew judahite souls. But this is not a physical bloodline, it has to do with the spiritual body, if that soul is His or of another seed. When I read my interlinear scripture, I certainly don't have a problem anymore rejecting that he came to convert Gentiles. And seeing that he only came for His own family. His souls made in His image. He KNOWS us. That is how i read what Christ means when He said, I do not know you. And how I read, when Christ is told he is King of the Jews, his response 'that is who you say I am' (paraphrase). Since, either a jew, or a gentile could be a canaanite. Which of course Christ is not a cain soul. That is also the meaning of wheat and chaff: two realms. The difference is at the level of substance, of the soul itself and not a visible difference from the physical this world eyes.

              The reason for the virgin birth is that He did not come in an ape frame body only. He is God. He wore the glorified form which He made FOR US and was the nature of Adam and Eve, which He said in scripture we too would have, our resurrected bodies. He died to the fallen body form, and resurrected in the true Image He intended for us, a body in His Image, when he resurrected in glorified form. He died on the cross, just as our fallen forms will die when we go into our true resurrected beings at the end of time, when we are restored. Nothing in scripture prevents my reading along these lines you see. Not one bit. Since nothing I have said is blasphemy or prevents me from being with Him. More, I know He is not offended since I have my comforter, Him, and he the first I trust in these matters, not popes or priests.

              He is God, and simply because he was in a body as we have does not mean he did not have access to the glorified body of the resurrection, or that he ceased at any moment to be God because he was man. (eg., he walked on water, and did miracles.) True, he was born into one of these bodies. But he never disconnected from the true "human" form he was showing us, modeling for us, telling us we would have. His purpose for the whole of scripture and for coming here was to restore us, to save us, to get us back. He showed us, modeled for us a choice, his realm or satan's realm. Egypt or His. the carnal man or the spiritual man. These are the types I have in mind. He lived within a body of this 'natural' type out of love for us, to suffer as we suffer in the awful fallen bodies we have here and show us how to do as he did, which was take up the cross and die to this world and these bodies and the carnal man.

              Our True Human form is not these bodies, but those that Adam and Eve had, that did not get sick or age. Before Satan interfered. God has no intention of letting satan win, or of not making sure that we have our birthright, as it was given for us by Him back. These bodies are not that birthright.

              That is part of the underlying truth of the virgin birth. That he came here to show us, all the above. All your reasons are true too of course. Thanks for the scriptures.

              e v e
              Last edited by e v e; 07-13-17, 01:37 AM.

              Comment


              • #82
                He was born in a virgin birth simply because of course he was not born of 'carnal' relations between fallen bodies! he was conceived of His realm, not the fallen luciferian one. Thus the saying also applies here, of being in this world yet not of it. He is not of this world, even though he was in it with us for a time. We don't have to be Of it either and do not have to live in the carnal man.

                All these types and shadows are the things that I think about in relation to your point.

                Since I'm not a priest or theologian, then, this my personal relationship with Him and how I am taught by Him.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by e v e View Post
                  He was born in a virgin birth simply because of course he was not born of 'carnal' relations between fallen bodies! he was conceived of His realm, not the fallen luciferian one. Thus the saying also applies here, of being in this world yet not of it. He is not of this world, even though he was in it with us for a time. We don't have to be Of it either and do not have to live in the carnal man.

                  All these types and shadows are the things that I think about in relation to your point.

                  Since I'm not a priest or theologian, then, this my personal relationship with Him and how I am taught by Him.
                  Please do not sell yourself short. You are an academic, and are trained to think critically, just are those who study systematic theology. We just specialize in what Scriptures say, and some of us have the training where we can use the original languages of Scripture.

                  I am sorry about your chronic fatigue. I am somewhat what aware of the issue because I struggled with narcolepsy, and discovered it when I twice fell asleep on the NYS Thruway going 70 Mph. Indeed that was a wake-up call!. Thank God for the rumble strips.

                  I realized that that was a manifestation of my chronic depression. So I am asking you if perhaps you have a similar situation, and are under the care of a physician for that?
                  MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

                  1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

                  2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

                  3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

                  4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by john t View Post

                    Please do not sell yourself short. You are an academic, and are trained to think critically, just are those who study systematic theology. We just specialize in what Scriptures say, and some of us have the training where we can use the original languages of Scripture.

                    I am sorry about your chronic fatigue. I am somewhat what aware of the issue because I struggled with narcolepsy, and discovered it when I twice fell asleep on the NYS Thruway going 70 Mph. Indeed that was a wake-up call!. Thank God for the rumble strips.

                    I realized that that was a manifestation of my chronic depression. So I am asking you if perhaps you have a similar situation, and are under the care of a physician for that?
                    Well I don't have depression but I have recently been to the doctor for help with the fatigue. Many blood tests were ordered which insurance doesn't cover, thus I haven't had any of the things the doctor ordered done. There may be some things covered but I've to call the insurer about those. However the bloodwork was the most important so consequently I guess even with one of the best silver plans I still have nothing covered. I dont have employer insurance, my academic employment isn't tenured. I'm an adjunct.

                    Yes i understand scriptural training. However I prefer to do my own exegesis of scripture. Regardless the topic since I'm able to read closely that tends to be how I go. I use other scholars but not as definitive. I use them as a reference only, not as final in any respect. I respect the things I can glean from them when those moments arise.

                    Comment

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