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7 Misconceptions: Speaking in Tongues and Spirit Baptism

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  • 7 Misconceptions: Speaking in Tongues and Spirit Baptism

    Can you identify the error in each of these 7 misconceptions about NT teaching about speaking in tongues?

    (1) Modern speaking in tongues is gibberish and never a human language.
    (2) The NT teaches that speaking in tongues always expresses human languages, as on the Day of Pentecost.
    (3) Speaking in tongues is always condemned by Paul in the absence of an interpreter.
    (4) Paul ranks speaking in tongues as the least valuable spiritual gift.
    (5) Speaking in tongues serves no essential purpose for petitionary prayer.
    (6) In any case, God does not intend
    very Christian to be able to speak in tongues.
    (7) The Book of Acts teaches that speaking tongues is a spiritual gift that can be received only after the Spirit's redemptive regenerative work.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Berserk View Post
    Can you identify the error in each of these 7 misconceptions about NT teaching about speaking in tongues?
    (1) Modern speaking in tongues is gibberish and never a human language.

    [Error 1, never say never. Error 2 the question presupposes that modern-day noise NORMALLY IS Biblical tongues, which they cannot establish at all]
    (2) The NT teaches that speaking in tongues always expresses human languages, as on the Day of Pentecost.

    [ The nt doesn't say. It just gives ONE EXAMPLE, and that Example (in Acts 2) has real human languages spoken.
    (3) Speaking in tongues is always condemned by Paul in the absence of an interpreter.

    [ Biblically, that is SPECIFICALLY IN THE CONGREGATIONAL SETTING, does not limit elsewhere. None was said to be present at Pentecost]
    (4) Paul ranks speaking in tongues as the least valuable spiritual gift.

    [Only as ONE of the 'less' valuable ones.
    (5) Speaking in tongues serves no essential purpose for petitionary prayer.

    [ Essential? Not required. As 'ESSENTIAL?' NOT REQUIRED AT ALL. IF I don't know how to pray, the HOLY SPIRIT intercedes in my prayers, no flappy lips or 'tongues' required at all. . .]
    (6) In any case, God does not intend
    very Christian to be able to speak in tongues.

    [NEVER IN THE BIBLE does ANY PASSAGE say that every Christian will speak in tongues. About 3,000 examples are given in Acts 2. NOT ONE of those 3,000 is EVER SAID TO HAVE SPOKEN IN TONGUES. . .YET THE PROMISE FROM GOD WAS MADE TO THEM IN Acts 2:39.
    (7) The Book of Acts teaches that speaking tongues is a spiritual gift that can be received only after the Spirit's redemptive regenerative work.
    NOT ONE Spiritual gift (tongues IS ONE OF THOSE) is EVER given to NON-believers in the Bible. The Holy Spirit does NOT dwell in 'dirty temples. . .'

    AND ALL of your claims are based on the false supposition that the noises produced by 'pentecostals,' voodoo witch doctors, and many scizophrenics 'must be' 'Biblical tongues.' There is no BIBLICAL reason to believe they are the same stuff.
    God's Word (Scripture) will convince me. YOUR argument is your own.

    I want to be so full of Jesus that if a mosquito bites me, he will fly away singing 'there's power in the blood. . .' (author unknown)

    Comment


    • #3
      Morefish: "NOT ONE Spiritual gift (tongues IS ONE OF THOSE) is EVER given to NON-believers in the Bible."
      Wrong! Cornelius is a pagan Roman, who qualifiers as a "godfearer," a category of Gentile devotees to Judaism, and he even tries to worship Peter!

      Morefish: "AND ALL of your claims are based on the false supposition that the noises produced by 'pentecostals,' voodoo witch doctors, and many scizophrenics 'must be' 'Biblical tongues.' There is no BIBLICAL reason to believe they are the same stuff."

      You wrongly assume that the glossolalia on the Day of Pentecost is normative for the other NT manifestations of glossolalia. The mere fact that the eruption of glossolalia in Cornelius' household reminds Peter of that in Acts 2 does not mean that the tongues were comprehensible human languages in both cases. Indeed, this assumption can be summarily dispatched on 4 grounds:
      (1) The glossolalia in Acts 2 are human languages (Greek: "dialektos") understood by the audience. No other NT glossolalia is described as a "dialektos."
      (2) The term "glossai" (tongues) is used for the other NT manifestations of glossolalia. But tongues in the sense of ecstatic speech does not normally designate human languages. It means
      "an expression which in speech or manner is strange and obscure and needs explanation,...a more secret language which the Greeks call "glossai." Here I am quoting famed NT scholar, Joachim Jeremias, who amply documents Greek usage of this term in his article in the magisterial muli-volume Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by Kittel.
      (3) The glossolalia in Acts 2 is labelled "prophecy" because it is understood by the outside audience. The subsequent glossolalia in Acts is not interpreted and therefore seems like gibberish to those who utter it. In contrast to the Pentecost glossolalia, it is sharply distinguished from "prophecy" (so Acts 19:6).
      (4) In 1 Corinthians Paul distinguishes "tongues" as angelic language from human languages. Academic commentaries recognize 2 types of glossolalia here, human and angelic. There is no reason to take the phrase "tongues of men and of angels" as hyperbolic speech. Thus, Paul proceeds to describe the Corinthians as "zealots of spirits" (Greek: "pneumata"), by which he means "zealots for angels." Indeed, as Hebrews 1:14 teaches: "Are not all angels ministering spirits?" From a human perspective angelic tongues, then and now, would seem like gibberish. There is Jewish precedent for a human grasp of angelic languages. First century rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai is famous for his alleged ability to understand angel language and the Testament of Job describes Jews speaking in angelic language.
      Last edited by Berserk; 05-14-18, 02:40 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        [Morefish: "NOT ONE Spiritual gift (tongues IS ONE OF THOSE) is EVER given to NON-believers in the Bible."
        Wrong! Cornelius is a pagan Roman, who qualifiers as a "godfearer," a category of Gentile devotees to Judaism, and he even tries to worship Peter!

        Morefish: "AND ALL of your claims are based on the false supposition that the noises produced by 'pentecostals,' voodoo witch doctors, and many scizophrenics 'must be' 'Biblical tongues.' There is no BIBLICAL reason to believe they are the same stuff."

        You wrongly assume that the glossolalia on the Day of Pentecost is normative for the other NT manifestations of glossolalia. This assumption can be summarily dispatched on 4 grounds:
        (1) The glossolalia in Acts 2 are human languages (Greek: "dialektos") understood by the audience. No other NT glossolalia is described as a "dialektos."
        (2) The term "glossai" (tongues) is used for the other NT manifestations of glossolalia. But "tongues in the sense of ecstatic speech does not normally designate human languages. It means
        "an expression which in speech or manner is strange and obscure and needs explanation,...a more secret language which the Greeks call "glossai."" Here I am quoting famed NT scholar, Joachim Jeremias, who amply documents Greek usage of this term in his article in the magisterial muli-volume Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by Kittel.
        (3) The glossolalia in Acts 2 is labelled "prophecy" because it is understood by the outside audience. The subsequent glossolalia in Acts is not interpreted and therefore seems like gibberish to those who utter it. In contrast to the Pentecost glossolalia, it is sharply distinguished from "prophecy" (so Acts 19:6).
        (4) In 1 Corinthians Paul distinguishes "tongues" as angelic language from human languages (13:1). Academic commentaries recognize 2 types of glossolalia here, human and angelic. There is no reason to take the phrase "tongues of men and of angels" as hyperbolic speech. Thus, Paul proceeds to describe the Corinthians as "zealots of spirits" (14:12--Greek: "pneumata"), by which he means "zealots for angels." Indeed, as Hebrews 1:14 teaches: "Are not all angels ministering spirits?" From a human perspective angelic tongues, then and now, would seem like gibberish. There is Jewish precedent for a human grasp of angelic languages. First century rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai is famous for his alleged ability to understand angel language and the Testament of Job describes Jews speaking in angelic language.

        Comment


        • #5

          (1) Modern speaking in tongues can at times express modern languages. (a) In his book "Jesus in Beijing," NYT reporter David Aikman reports a message in tongues in Hebrew in a Pentecostal church in Amonte, CA. The preacher's wife who gave the message didn't know Hebrew, but the message was understood by a visiting American Jew. It called Dennis Balcombe to be a missionary to China. Thousands were converted through his secret mission work there. (b) I traveled with Loren Cunningham, founder of Youth with a Mission. He was given a message in tongues in the language of a remote Amazon tribe his team was visiting. The result was a great witness and healing of a woman with a severe cataract problem. (c) A family in Saskatchewan received a message in tongues in Swahili, the language of the remote tribe where their daughter had been very sick, but could not be contacted. An African present in the meeting confirmed that the message in tongues was in Swahili. It confirmed that the daughter was OK and would return home soon. Such examples could be multiplied.

          (2) In 1 Corinthians Paul acknowledges that in actual fact not everyone speaks in tongues or prophesies (12:29-30). But he encourages us to seek the best gifts (12:31: 14:1), which include prophecy and tongues, because these gifts are for everyone. Prophecy is the best gift, but finds its equal in interpreted tongues (14:5). Thus, Paul tells us "we can all prophesy one by one (14:31)" and tells us he wants us all to prophesy and speak in tongues (14:5). Paul even thanks God that he speaks in tongues more than anyone (14:18). Private prayer in uninterpreted tongues is encouraged because it "builds up" or edifies the speaker (14:4, 28--so Hans Conzelmann in his respected Commentary on 1 Corinthians, p. 245(3)). This fact is not undermined by Paul's preference for prophesying and interpreted tongues in corporate worship.

          The tongues spoken in Cornelius's household (Acts 10:44-47) and at Ephesus (19:1-6) are not interpreted and, so far as we know, are indistinguishable from modern uninterpreted prayer in tongues. Those who arbitrarily reject modern glossolalia are in danger of commiting the sin against the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:32). The Teaching of the 12 Apostles (the Didache) is written in the NT era and it identifies the unpardonable sin against the Holy Spirit as a failure to acknowledge the validity of a divinely sanctioned prophet (11:7).

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Berserk View Post
            (1) The glossolalia in Acts 2 are human languages (Greek: "dialektos") understood by the audience. No other NT glossolalia is described as a "dialektos."
            he who speaks in a tongue
            does not speak to men but to God,
            for no one understands him
            (1 Co 14:2).

            The binding apostolic word of God
            by a first ranking apostle overrides Luke's fables
            in which people understood tongues
            (Mat 16:19, Eph 4 :11, 1 Cor 12:28)

            You have placed yourself
            in the unenviable position to deny the absolute truth.
            The Roman Canon will be threshed in the harvest.
            angels .. will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend (Mt 13:41).

            Christians will thereby be divided
            into those who remain intoxicated on the harlotries of the papacy (Rev 17:2)

            and those who can enter heaven, because they have a pure mind
            for they recall only the foundational prophets and apostles (Eph 2:20, 2 Pet 3:1-2)

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Berserk View Post
              Can you identify the error in each of these 7 misconceptions about NT teaching about speaking in tongues?
              (1) Modern speaking in tongues is gibberish and never a human language.
              Utterances in Tongues May or may not be languages recognized by listeners. They may also appear NOT TO BE "real languages" at all.

              (2) The NT teaches that speaking in tongues always expresses human languages, as on the Day of Pentecost.
              Except of course that it doesn't teach that at all.

              (3) Speaking in tongues is always condemned by Paul in the absence of an interpreter.
              Totally untrue (1 cor 14) Babbling in tongues for the purpose of "Showing off" is not recommended, but if the HOLY SPIRIT burdens you to speak in tongues in a meeting, then you automatically KNOW that the Spirit is also Burdening someone to interpret.

              (4) Paul ranks speaking in tongues as the least valuable spiritual gift.
              Not true, the gifts are NO RANKED at all SPiritually, and the BEST GIFT is the one that minister to the situation.

              (5) Speaking in tongues serves no essential purpose for petitionary prayer.
              Not true, "Tongues" are said to be speaking mysteries to God. Since God KNOWS what we need before we even ask, that could be included in the unknown content.

              (6) In any case, God does not intend every Christian to be able to speak in tongues.
              SInce I'me sppken in tongues privately for 45 years, but NEVER deliviered a message in tongues to a meeting, then arguably in that context I "DON'T Speak in tongues" in the public venue. Privately, however, it's a different story. DO ALL INDIVIDUALS endued with power from on high speak in tongues. I wouldn't try to make that arguement based on the Biblical record. But since "Speaking what the Holy SPirit sends to your mind" is pretty basic Biblically, I wouldn't be surprised. The REAL EVIDENCE of the "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" (AG Vernacular) to ME was the immediate move into the Bible Teaching ministry in home groups, and the occasional sermon - NONE OF WHICH would have been possible for me - before.

              (7) The Book of Acts teaches that speaking tongues is a spiritual gift that can be received only after the Spirit's redemptive regenerative work.
              Except, of course it doesn't. folks (and A$$es in the old testament were moved on by the Holy Spirit when they weren't "Saved" in the "Born again sense" at all. PRophest spoke as the Holy SPirit gave them the words from the very beginning. ANd I'd argue (half seriously) that "Hebrew" is definitly "tongues" for an A$$.

              Comment


              • #8
                Berserk replied
                05-14-18, 12:31 AM
                Morefish: "NOT ONE Spiritual gift (tongues IS ONE OF THOSE) is EVER given to NON-believers in the Bible."
                Wrong! Cornelius is a pagan Roman, who qualifiers as a "godfearer," a category of Gentile devotees to Judaism, and he even tries to worship Peter!

                Morefish: "AND ALL of your claims are based on the false supposition that the noises produced by 'pentecostals,' voodoo witch doctors, and many scizophrenics 'must be' 'Biblical tongues.' There is no BIBLICAL reason to believe they are the same stuff."
                You wrongly assume that the glossolalia on the Day of Pentecost is no.rmative for the other NT manifestations of glossolalia

                [And why do YOU wrongly assume that they are NOT? PROVE to me FROM SCRIPTURE that they are NOT. . .I don't think you can.]

                The mere fact that the eruption of glossolalia in Cornelius' household reminds Peter of that in Acts 2 does not mean that the tongues were comprehensible human languages in both cases. Indeed, this assumption can be summarily dispatched on 4 grounds:
                (1) The glossolalia in Acts 2 are human languages (Greek: "dialektos") understood by the audience. No other NT glossolalia is described as a "dialektos."


                [So? MULTIPLE words can be used for the term in the Greek.]

                (2) The term "glossai" (tongues) is used for the other NT manifestations of glossolalia. But tongues in the sense of ecstatic speech does not normally designate human languages

                [According to WHO? pentecostals with their apriori beliefs? WHAT NON-HUMAN languages do YOU THINK they are in? Monkeyese?]

                It means
                "an expression which in speech or manner is strange and obscure and needs explanation,...a more secret language which the Greeks call "glossai."

                [STILL HUMAN LANGUAGES, NOT 'monkey-eze'

                Here I am quoting famed NT scholar, Joachim Jeremias, who amply documents Greek usage of this term in his article in the magisterial muli-volume Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by Kittel.

                [Yet I see NO MENTION ANYWHERE IN IT of 'inhuman languages.'

                Sorry, but your 'explanation' fails you. . .]



                (3) The glossolalia in Acts 2 is labelled "prophecy" because it is understood by the outside audience.

                [By WHOM? I don't see it labeled 'prophesy' anywhere. I DO see it was giving Glory to GOD. NOTHING separating it from OTHER 'tongues' however.]

                The subsequent glossolalia in Acts is not interpreted and therefore seems like gibberish to those who utter it. In contrast to the Pentecost glossolalia, it is sharply distinguished from "prophecy" (so Acts 19:6)

                Of course tongues ARE NOT prophesy. They are for a SIGN TO UNBELIEVERS that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. (1 Cor 14:22)

                (4) In 1 Corinthians Paul distinguishes "tongues" as angelic language from human languages.

                [you have obviously NOT DONE YOUR HOMEWORK. Paul's ONLY MENTION ANYWHERE of any 'angelic language' is a HYPOTHETICAL "IF" STATEMENT such as "if pigs could fly. . ." HE NEVER ONCE says any 'angelic language' exists anywhere. The angels in the BIBLE ALL speak HUMAN languages. NOT ONE IS EVER SAID TO SPEAK 'angel-eze']

                Academic commentaries recognize 2 types of glossolalia here, human and angelic. There is no reason to take the phrase "tongues of men and of angels" as hyperbolic speech. Thus, Paul proceeds to describe the Corinthians as "zealots of spirits" (Greek: "pneumata"), by which he means "zealots for angels." Indeed, as Hebrews 1:14 teaches: "Are not all angels ministering spirits?" From a human perspective angelic tongues, then and now, would seem like gibberish. There is Jewish precedent for a human grasp of angelic languages. First century rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai is famous for his alleged ability to understand angel language and the Testament of Job describes Jews speaking in angelic language..
                Do you REALLY WANT TO BE A FOLLOWER of the SANHEDREN Yohanan ben Zakkai, a SANHEDRIN? Remember, THEY DID NOT BELIEVE IN THE RESURRECTION, let alone in Jesus Christ.

                Johanan ben Zakkai was a member of the Great Sanhedrin in Jerusalem, the assembly of 71 ordained scholars that functioned both as supreme court and as a legislature. In that body, Johanan, a Pharisee, often debated his Sadducean colleagues on issues of Jewish law. While in Jerusalem, he also presided over an important yeshiva. Johanan foresaw that the Jews could not be victorious in their desperate struggle against Rome; he was determined, however, that Judaism should not perish even if the Jewish state and the Temple were destroyed.

                While Jerusalem was under siege, Johanan was unable to receive permission to leave the city. He therefore had his pupils carry him out of Jerusalem in a coffin, presumably for burial.


                https://www.encyclopedia.com/people/...akkai#Johananb

                Is THAT your 'great sanhedrin scholar?' Remember, a 'scholar' is one who agrees with you, with great 'credentials.' Sometimes from a Bible college that has 7 'students' and one teacher in it. . .

                NOT QUITE what you get from a state university.

                I have seen 'lessons' from AT LEAST 2 such 'bible colleges' that taught fifth-grade elementary grammar as 'how to do a term paper. . .' ONE of the 'students' dropped the course, the other 'graduated' with a 'certificate' that was as meaningless as a roll of toilet paper in a windstorm.

                Sorry, but I am NOT IMPRESSED with your sanhedrin 'scholar.'

                Last edited by Morefish; 09-23-18, 05:27 PM.
                God's Word (Scripture) will convince me. YOUR argument is your own.

                I want to be so full of Jesus that if a mosquito bites me, he will fly away singing 'there's power in the blood. . .' (author unknown)

                Comment

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