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Why isn't an ""unknown tongue" just "speaking into the air"?

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  • Why isn't an ""unknown tongue" just "speaking into the air"?

    1Co 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

    ?

    I mean the Charismatic admits, they don't know what they say. Yet, somehow, they believe it means something.

    Paul made is clear above. If you don't speak plainly.... "you're just speaking into the air"......

    ?

  • #2
    Originally posted by praise_yeshua View Post
    1Co 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
    In the context of an open meeting the statement is true, hence the requirement of interpretation.

    In practical terms, IF the Holy Spirit burdens a person to speak in a tongue in an open meeting, then the Spirit will ALSO BURDEN a person, or persons with the interpretation thereof.

    If there IS NO interpretation, the LIKELYHOOD IS that the person was NOT speaking a "Message in tongues", but just "Showing off" their "spirituality", which would be out of order. the Corinthians were an "undisciplined bunch" after all - actually BRAGGING about their "gifts" as though They had anything to do with it.

    Next cessationist argument??

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

      In the context of an open meeting the statement is true, hence the requirement of interpretation.
      That is YOUR CONTEXT. That is not the context of the statement.

      In practical terms, IF the Holy Spirit burdens a person to speak in a tongue in an open meeting, then the Spirit will ALSO BURDEN a person, or persons with the interpretation thereof.
      Why the double requirement? Why require that people understand in an open meeting and NOT require people understand when they're talking to God?

      This is a silly double standard. Which is WHY PAUL SAID THE FOLLOWING....

      1Co 14:16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

      , but just "Showing off" their "spirituality", which would be out of order. the Corinthians were an "undisciplined bunch" after all - actually BRAGGING about their "gifts" as though They had anything to do with it.
      Please tell your partner in this conversation this. He keeps denying this truth.

      If there IS NO interpretation, the LIKELYHOOD IS that the person was NOT speaking a "Message in tongues"
      Likewise, why is this not likely...... if the person speaking an "unknown tongue" that no one understands?

      Get it? The central focus is UNDERSTANDING..... You need it EVERY TIME YOU PRAY and EVERYTIME YOU SPEAK.

      Next cessationist argument??
      Not a Cessationist. My arguments are my arguments. Your cessation tag doesn't fit me.


      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by praise_yeshua View Post
        That is YOUR CONTEXT. That is not the context of the statement.
        It's the context of the whole chapter - i.e. how to conduct a meeting of the Church in Corinth.

        Why the double requirement? Why require that people understand in an open meeting and NOT require people understand when they're talking to God?
        Actually the requirement is quite different - in the context of a meeting, the Holy Spirit Choreographs the ministries of the Gifts - burdening this one to do one thing, and another one to so something else, and Holding the meeting progress to make "space" for the gifts. AS a Cessationist, you probably aren't aware of that process.

        As the tongue is being spoken, the interpreter will be burdened to speak, and also receive the first few words of the interpretation. when the tongue is finished, The interpreter knows that when he starts speaking the few words that he has, the rest of the message (or at least his portion of it) will flow. When it stops flowing he should shut up and sit down.

        Your cessation tag doesn't fit me.
        On the contrary, It fits you better, and more plainly every time you post here your ignorance of the gifts, and their operation in the body gathered.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by praise_yeshua View Post
          1Co 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

          ?

          I mean the Charismatic admits, they don't know what they say. Yet, somehow, they believe it means something.

          Paul made is clear above. If you don't speak plainly.... "you're just speaking into the air"......

          ?
          If you want to talk about what Paul made plain, go to the thread where the three chapters are discussed...you have completely missed Paul's point, which was not made in a vacuum, but in a very clear context. Bob has this so right, and you cannot grasp what he's saying.
          Pete

          ~(8-[)}<><===> (flames of new anointing, béret, non-prescription glasses to help critics and their ilk feel more secure, mustache, beard...and tie.) I serve a God who walked this earth for thirty years before He did a single miracle.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

            It's the context of the whole chapter - i.e. how to conduct a meeting of the Church in Corinth.
            You can't make that argument with respect to the distinction between a known tongue and an unknown tongue. Private and Public communications. Both are pretty much equally presented throughout the chapter. Thus, you can't rightful declare that the chapter talks exclusively about one. You're co-mingling the communication without a single demoniator.

            The single denominator is "understanding".

            Actually the requirement is quite different - in the context of a meeting, the Holy Spirit Choreographs the ministries of the Gifts - burdening this one to do one thing, and another one to so something else, and Holding the meeting progress to make "space" for the gifts.
            Then why are mixing them? You witness they are different and the same regardless of context.

            As the tongue is being spoken, the interpreter will be burdened to speak, and also receive the first few words of the interpretation. when the tongue is finished, The interpreter knows that when he starts speaking the few words that he has, the rest of the message (or at least his portion of it) will flow. When it stops flowing he should shut up and sit down.
            If the person is required to sit down without a interpreter, then why are YOU okay when someone prays without knowing what they say? You're creating a double standard. Double talk.... This is nonsensical argument.

            Logic would dictate that the "unknown tongue" is an oxymoron when it comes to edification. If knowing what is said is vital, it is also vital when one is praying.

            You can't just "speak into the air" when you're praying.

            Last edited by praise_yeshua; 05-15-19, 02:28 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by tbeachhead View Post

              If you want to talk about what Paul made plain, go to the thread where the three chapters are discussed...you have completely missed Paul's point, which was not made in a vacuum, but in a very clear context. Bob has this so right, and you cannot grasp what he's saying.
              No its not. I've asked specfic questions that go unanswered. You keep co-mingling the use of tongues as if they are the same. They're not. The key is understanding.

              You can't understand something when you don't know the words being spoken. Thus it is useless to the hear.... the HEARER... includes YOU!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by praise_yeshua View Post

                No its not. I've asked specfic questions that go unanswered. You keep co-mingling the use of tongues as if they are the same. They're not. The key is understanding.

                You can't understand something when you don't know the words being spoken. Thus it is useless to the hear.... the HEARER... includes YOU!
                But that doesn't mean spiritual edification cannot occur, either for the speaker or for the hearers. Indeed, you will note that at Pentecost, none of the Galilean disciples understood a lick of the various foreign languages they spoke, but I would submit that in spite of this fact, spiritual edification did occur [their inner man was spiritually strengthened] without cognitive understanding, especially since they did so by the power of God's Spirit.

                Indeed, Paul in 1 Cor 14:2 makes this very point.

                "Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church" (NIV)

                "A person who speaks in tongues is strengthened personally, but one who speaks a word of prophecy strengthens the entire church" (NLT)

                Note also 1 Cor 14:28.

                "But if no one is present who can interpret, they must be silent in your church meeting and speak in tongues to God privately" (NLT)

                In short, if Paul believed speaking in unintelligible tongues did not spiritually edify the speaker without an interpreter being present, then it seems he would have doubtless prohibited this practice altogether.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by forever4truth View Post

                  But that doesn't mean spiritual edification cannot occur, either for the speaker or for the hearers. Indeed, you will note that at Pentecost, none of the Galilean disciples understood a lick of the various foreign languages they spoke,
                  Thus, they didn't know what was said. Which began their questioning.

                  but I would submit that in spite of this fact, spiritual edification did occur [their inner man was spiritually strengthened] without cognitive understanding, especially since they did so by the power of God's Spirit.
                  You can claim that. Prove it from the Scriptures or at least give a valid reason you believe this... Not just a "I Believe".

                  Indeed, Paul in 1 Cor 14:2 makes this very point.

                  "Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church" (NIV)
                  If you have followed my conversations here. I have repeatedly made the point that Paul was rehearsing the argument that those at Corinth were making. They didn't need to understand. That God understood them. It was rehearsed argument. An argument they had long had among themselves.

                  "A person who speaks in tongues is strengthened personally, but one who speaks a word of prophecy strengthens the entire church" (NLT)
                  Maybe you can answer. Explain how that is possible. How is someone helped by not understanding what they say? If what is not known is like "speaking into the air"..... then the same is TRUE of those who are praying and do not know what they're saying.

                  It is true in and of itself.

                  Note also 1 Cor 14:28.

                  "But if no one is present who can interpret, they must be silent in your church meeting and speak in tongues to God privately" (NLT)
                  Silent. Means to not speak. Do you understand what Silent means? Paul is saying not to say anything.

                  In other words, Keep it to yourself.

                  In short, if Paul believed speaking in unintelligible tongues did not spiritually edify the speaker without an interpreter being present, then it seems he would have doubtless prohibited this practice altogether.
                  He pretty much did. He told them CLEARLY....

                  1Co 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
                  1Co 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
                  1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

                  Those five words were probably.....

                  Jesus Christ and Him Crucified.

                  Which is better than all the lack of understanding involved in trying to get something from words you can't even understand.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by praise_yeshua View Post
                    You can't make that argument with respect to the distinction between a known tongue and an unknown tongue. Private and Public communications. Both are pretty much equally presented throughout the chapter. Thus, you can't rightful declare that the chapter talks exclusively about one. You're co-mingling the communication without a single demoniator. The single denominator is "understanding".
                    True - in the context of the open meeting, where the EMPHASIS is on effective communication.

                    Then why are mixing them? You witness they are different and the same regardless of context.
                    Nope, I don't. that's what you're attempting to do.

                    If the person is required to sit down without a interpreter,
                    READ WHAT I WROTE!!! the person "sitting down" IS the Interpreter when the words of his interpretation stop flowing as I stated clearly.

                    then why are YOU okay when someone prays without knowing what they say?
                    Because they're praying in an unknown tongue as I clearly stated previously, and is confirmed in 1 Cor 14:14

                    Despite your declation to the contrary, it's obvious that you really never read 1 Cor 14 (which should be read in conjunction with 12, and 13 as well as the entire context of the Book itself) with any sort of understanding. You seem incapable (based on your comments) of even understanding that I wrote,

                    1 Cor 14 is a chapter that deals with a specific PROBLEM in the Corinthian church: Lack of order.

                    Paul never says HEY!! YOU IDIOTS, that Babbling in tongues isn't even real YOU'RE ALL JUST FAKING IT!!!!

                    Instead he says that there's a time, and a place for all that, BUT THERE MUST BE ORDER instead of confusion!!, and goes on to give guidelines in the proper use of the Gift of Tongues in the conducting of a meeting of the church, as well as the necessity for confirmation within the group of the things spoken.

                    It's the position of the Cessationist that NONE OF IT is real.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

                      Despite your declation to the contrary, it's obvious that you really never read 1 Cor 14
                      Seriously? You don't believe I've ever read 1 Cor 14? That speaks to your judgement. Not mine.

                      (which should be read in conjunction with 12, and 13 as well as the entire context of the Book itself) with any sort of understanding. You seem incapable (based on your comments) of even understanding that I wrote,
                      I have repeatedly tried to narrow your comments to the point of going point by point through the subject. I understand what you're writing. I just don't believe it.

                      1 Cor 14 is a chapter that deals with a specific PROBLEM in the Corinthian church: Lack of order.
                      NO. The problem is understanding. The lack of order comes from those not understanding. If they understood, there might not even be an issue with ORDER..... There were those among them that continually spoke with a tongue what noone understood. This was causing the problem.

                      Which would cause a problem ANYWHERE IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCE. You can't get SOMETHING out of what you don't understand!

                      Paul never says HEY!! YOU IDIOTS, that Babbling in tongues isn't even real YOU'RE ALL JUST FAKING IT!!!!
                      He didn't have to. He dismantled their argument. He DEMANDED, they focus on edifying others and DEMANDED they keep quiet without an interpreter. Something hardly any of you practice. I've been in your services over and over again. None of you are SILENT when Paul demanded that you BE SILENT....

                      1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

                      Which means to BE SILENT. NOT TO SPEAK so ANYONE CAN HEAR YOU.

                      Yeah. Like that ever happens.

                      There is a reason Paul said the words....1Co 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

                      He was tired of their childish behavior.

                      Instead he says that there's a time, and a place for all that, BUT THERE MUST BE ORDER instead of confusion!!,
                      Yeah. When you're by yourself. Keep it to yourself. If people can't understand it, its is worthless to them. In reality it is worthless to one stuck in his own nonsense.

                      and goes on to give guidelines in the proper use of the Gift of Tongues in the conducting of a meeting of the church, as well as the necessity for confirmation within the group of the things spoken.
                      There shouldn't be ANY UNKNOWN TONGUE at ANY TIME..... among your assemblies. You are commanded to keep silent. You don't. You're proud of your "prayer language".

                      It's the position of the Cessationist that NONE OF IT is real.
                      I would say a Cessationist would say differently. Good thing I'm not a cessationist. I believe in Divine Prophesy. People understand Divine Prophesy. They CAN'T understand what they were doing down at Corinth.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by forever4truth View Post
                        But that doesn't mean spiritual edification cannot occur, either for the speaker or for the hearers. Indeed, you will note that at Pentecost, none of the Galilean disciples understood a lick of the various foreign languages they spoke
                        I'm going to address you points in separate posts.

                        Originally posted by praise_yeshua View Post
                        Thus, they didn't know what was said
                        Nor did the Galilean disciples have to understand the words that they supernaturally spoke by the power of God's spirit. Their speaking in tongues served as the immediate evidence of them receiving the gift of the holy spirit, in spite of the fact that they didn't understand a lick of the foreign tongues they spoke.

                        Again, there is no requirement ever given in scripture that one who speaks in tongues must understand the tongue spoken. If that were the case, Paul would have bothered instructing them to PRAY for the ability to interpret their tongue (1 Cor 14:13).

                        Indeed, Paul makes the point that "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful" (1 Cor 14:14, NIV)

                        Which began their questioning.
                        Just to be clear, Luke never reports the Galilean disciples questioning their ability to supernaturally speak in tongues. It was the non-Palestinian Jews who questioned (marvelled) at how these unlearned Galilean disciples could speak fluently in their own native tongues/dialects.

                        The second group ("the others") in Acts 2:13 didn't question, but rather mocked.

                        "7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? (Acts 2:7-8, NIV)







                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by praise_yeshua View Post

                          You can claim that. Prove it from the Scriptures or at least give a valid reason you believe this... Not just a "I Believe".

                          If you have followed my conversations here. I have repeatedly made the point that Paul was rehearsing the argument that those at Corinth were making. They didn't need to understand. That God understood them. It was rehearsed argument. An argument they had long had among themselves.
                          What contextual clues led you to this conclusion? While it seems clear that Paul does at times "repeat" certain Corinthian slogans (e.g., 1 Cor 1:12; 6:12-20; 7:1), I'm not aware of him of "rehearsing the argument that those at Corinth were making" in 1 Cor 14:2.

                          It's my understanding that when Paul addresses the Corinthians arguments or questions, he prefaces such, as, "Now concerning" or "Now about."



                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by praise_yeshua View Post

                            That is YOUR CONTEXT. That is not the context of the statement.
                            This only proves the point. You have no concept of the context of 1 Cor 14. It’s Paul’s point.

                            Why the double requirement? Why require that people understand in an open meeting and NOT require people understand when they're talking to God?

                            This is a silly double standard. Which is WHY PAUL SAID THE FOLLOWING....

                            1Co 14:16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?



                            Please tell your partner in this conversation this. He keeps denying this truth.



                            Likewise, why is this not likely...... if the person speaking an "unknown tongue" that no one understands?

                            Get it? The central focus is UNDERSTANDING..... You need it EVERY TIME YOU PRAY and EVERYTIME YOU SPEAK.



                            Not a Cessationist. My arguments are my arguments. Your cessation tag doesn't fit me.

                            The central focus is the edification of the whole body. Nothing else.

                            Pete

                            ~(8-[)}<><===> (flames of new anointing, béret, non-prescription glasses to help critics and their ilk feel more secure, mustache, beard...and tie.) I serve a God who walked this earth for thirty years before He did a single miracle.

                            Comment


                            • #15

                              Originally posted by F4T: Note also 1 Cor 14:28.

                              "But if no one is present who can interpret, they must be silent in your church meeting and speak in tongues to God privately" (NLT)
                              Originally posted by praise_yeshua View Post

                              Silent. Means to not speak. Do you understand what Silent means? Paul is saying not to say anything.

                              In other words, Keep it to yourself.
                              Silent (sigatō) in this context means not speak "out loud" in tongues in the assembly.

                              The contrast is between speaking in tongues out loud vs speaking in tongues privately, not speaking in tongues out loud vs not speaking in tongues at all, as if Paul forbade this practice altogether if no interpreter was present in the church.

                              "But if no one is present who can interpret, they must be silent in your church meeting and speak in tongues to God privately" ( 1 Cor 14:28, NLT)

                              Comment

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