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Robey's Rebellion

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  • TomL;

    AMAZING!!!! Not a direct exact cut and paste!!!!!!!!!!!! Let me scurry and hurry to reply before he reverts back to the old Tom,,,,,
    Tom replies

    Once again Noble demonstrates an inability to read a passage in its context and come to a proper understanding
    Well let me lay out what I think each of these verses mean. Then you could write out what you think they mean and we can work out something from there. The possibility exists that neither of us have the correct meaning as well and in that case others may chime in and who knows we may sort something out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    This verse tells me two very important things,
    1) there are people (believers) alive on earth and living on earth at the time of the coming of the Lord.
    2) Those people who are alive at that time do NOT get raised to immortality BEFORE the people who sleep. The people who sleep and wait for a resurrection from the dead.

    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    Of all those sleeping waiting for a resurrection of the dead who have to be resurrected before those alive at the coming are dealt with, it is the dead in Christ who are raised first. THe REST of the dead are raised before those alive and remaining too but we have to read thru many other verses to verify how this takes place.

    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    AFTER the coming of the Lord when Jesus establishes the kingdom of Heaven, then those who were alive and remaining on earth can be made mmortal a well. Naturally they have to physically die first because flesh and blood can not enter the kingdom of heaven,,,IN THE CLOUD... for eternity with Jesus.

    Nowhere do we read that the living must die first before they are caught up in the cloud to meet the Lord in the air
    Of course we read that, but NOT in these verses, however the word of God is not condensed into these few verses . We have to bring all the information together so we learn the whole process.

    The reason we know that the people must die before they can meet the resurrected from verse 16 is as follows. The resurrected of 16 are all physically dead before they are taken to be in the cloud WITH Jesus forever. Heaven is the only place anybody can be forever with Jesus. Therefore the IN THe CLOUD is heaven ///a big part of the kingdom of heaven and no flesh and blood can enter there. Those people from 1 Thess 4:15 are flesh and blood as Jesus returns. NO entering the kingdom of heaven until they physically die first.

    What we have instead is a procession. The dead are raised first this happens in an instant then the living are caught up in the cloud together with the dead and together they meet the lord in the air
    I have no interest in the above because it is denominational doctrine ONLY. As such it is not anywhere near usable in a decent bible discussion.
    Tell me what the verses say.... make these verse fit every other verse in the bible.

    Similar is
    I will show you what I see in these verses too and again you can point out what I have wrong and what they should say instead....

    1Co 15:51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

    At the exact moment of the last trump ( we learn the timing later in this passage) two things happen at that moment. Sleeping ends, and all people are changed.
    Paul includes himself in the WE may not sleep which cements the timing of that last trump to Paul's generation. Paul was briefed on the entire process by Jesus so Paul was not GUESSING at what generation was in view. Paul knew for a fact he was in that generation and he may or may not sleep. Pal knew he was in the generation who would be changed.

    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    At the moment of the coming , the last trump, there is that resurrection of the dead we read about in 1 Thess 4:16 and also at that moment all people, sleeping or not, are changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    The mortal person must put on immortality. The following verse helps clarify.....

    54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
    55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

    There is that 'death' being done away with . At this moment there is no longer any fear of this 'death'. This 'death' no longer affects the believer. SO physical death is no longer a thing to fear because belief in Jesus will gain us all, every person since that last trump, eternal life after physical death from earthly living.

    Both passages speak of events that happened at the second physical advent of Christ
    You would have to biblically prove this PHYSICAL coming of Christ first.

    In a moment (instant) the dead are raised and the living are changed to immortal
    Where does the bible say that? Remember 1 COR 15:50... I'll just point out what I see in that verse and again you can illustrate where I am wrong....

    50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

    Flesh and blood is what you are today.... a living flesh body on earth. That body you are in today can not enter the kingdom of God. Those people who were alive on planet earth at the moment of the last trump were flesh and blood too... as such they could NOT inherit the ....go to ...enter into ....the kingdom of heaven. AS IN they could not have been airlifted to be IN THE CLOUD with Jesus to be with Jesus FOREVER as flesh and blood as living human. It's always nice to have biblical backup to the biblical fact... here we have that backup in the very same verse.... " nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable" THE perishable, the flesh and blood body, can NOT become imperishable. SOOOO the flesh body decays in the grave and God gives us a NEW heavenly body to cover our immortal soul IN heaven, 2 COR 5:1 to 4.

    Further in identifying those who undergo this change we have the term mortal. Mortal defines those that can die. Well we all know it is the body that. dies. Thus we have in view a physical change in the body that renders it immortal
    Very poor indeed. NO the ones who WERE sleeping were changed too. ALL were changed so right there your statement can not be accepted.
    AGAIN....
    We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

    Not ALL sleep but ALL will be changed. Paul, as it turns out, was NOT one who did not have to sleep but still Paul was changed..... do you understand?

    Nobles misinterpretation is necessary to save his eschatology from the obvious fact this has not happened. The dead have not been resurrected bodily and the living have not been changed to immortal and caught up
    AND what is your story supposed to do for your doctrine. Of course the dead have been resurrected to eternal life in heaven... again...remember Martha, she NEVER DIED so she lived on earth until resurrections were no longer necessary.

    And no Noble you have no proof all you have is misinterpretation and eisegesis
    Hey readers...who wants to bet Tom has no decent response to this ...AT ALL!

    noble




    Comment


    • Originally posted by noble View Post
      TomL;

      AMAZING!!!! Not a direct exact cut and paste!!!!!!!!!!!! Let me scurry and hurry to reply before he reverts back to the old Tom,,,,,


      Well let me lay out what I think each of these verses mean.
      Tom replies

      we already did that

      We do not need a second stating of your opinion

      Include comments and address rebuttal


      Tom replies

      Once again Noble demonstrates an inability to read a passage in its context and come to a proper understanding

      1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
      16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
      17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

      Nowhere do we read that the living must die first before they are caught up in the cloud to meet the Lord in the air

      What we have instead is a procession. The dead are raised first this happens in an instant then the living are caught up in the cloud together with the dead and together they meet the lord in the air

      Similar is

      1Co 15:51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
      52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
      53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
      54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
      55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

      Both passages speak of events that happened at the second physical advent of Christ

      In a moment (instant) the dead are raised and the living are changed to immortal

      Further in identifying those who undergo this change we have the term mortal. Mortal defines those that can die. Well we all know it is the body that. dies. Thus we have in view a physical change in the body that renders it immortal

      Nobles misinterpretation is necessary to save his eschatology from the obvious fact this has not happened. The dead have not been resurrected bodily and the living have not been changed to immortal and caught up

      And no Noble you have no proof all you have is misinterpretation and eisegesis






      Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

      Comment


      • TomL

        How can any grown man be such a wussy in something as non threatening as a BIBLE discussion...?

        No Tom not once have you offered what you thought each verse means ,.... not once. Oh, you have jumped up on your soap box and exalted what your doctrine is, but I couldn't care less about false doctrine.... the bible , I love discussing what the bible says.
        SO let's hit those verses again... here is what I feel they say ....and you????

        1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

        This verse tells me two very important things,
        1) there are people (believers) alive on earth and living on earth at the time of the coming of the Lord.
        2) Those people who are alive at that time do NOT get raised to immortality BEFORE the people who sleep. The people who sleep and wait for a resurrection from the dead.

        16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

        Of all those sleeping waiting for a resurrection of the dead who have to be resurrected before those alive at the coming are dealt with, it is the dead in Christ who are raised first. THe REST of the dead are raised before those alive and remaining too but we have to read thru many other verses to verify how this takes place.

        17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

        AFTER the coming of the Lord when Jesus establishes the kingdom of Heaven, then those who were alive and remaining on earth can be made mmortal a well. Naturally they have to physically die first because flesh and blood can not enter the kingdom of heaven,,,IN THE CLOUD... for eternity with Jesus.

        Nowhere do we read that the living must die first before they are caught up in the cloud to meet the Lord in the air
        Of course we read that, but NOT in these verses, however the word of God is not condensed into these few verses . We have to bring all the information together so we learn the whole process.

        The reason we know that the people must die before they can meet the resurrected from verse 16 is as follows. The resurrected of 16 are all physically dead before they are taken to be in the cloud WITH Jesus forever. Heaven is the only place anybody can be forever with Jesus. Therefore the IN THe CLOUD is heaven ///a big part of the kingdom of heaven and no flesh and blood can enter there. Those people from 1 Thess 4:15 are flesh and blood as Jesus returns. NO entering the kingdom of heaven until they physically die first.

        What we have instead is a procession. The dead are raised first this happens in an instant then the living are caught up in the cloud together with the dead and together they meet the lord in the air
        I have no interest in the above because it is denominational doctrine ONLY. As such it is not anywhere near usable in a decent bible discussion.
        Tell me what the verses say.... make these verse fit every other verse in the bible.

        Similar is
        I will show you what I see in these verses too and again you can point out what I have wrong and what they should say instead....

        1Co 15:51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

        At the exact moment of the last trump ( we learn the timing later in this passage) two things happen at that moment. Sleeping ends, and all people are changed.
        Paul includes himself in the WE may not sleep which cements the timing of that last trump to Paul's generation. Paul was briefed on the entire process by Jesus so Paul was not GUESSING at what generation was in view. Paul knew for a fact he was in that generation and he may or may not sleep. Pal knew he was in the generation who would be changed.

        52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

        At the moment of the coming , the last trump, there is that resurrection of the dead we read about in 1 Thess 4:16 and also at that moment all people, sleeping or not, are changed.
        53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

        The mortal person must put on immortality. The following verse helps clarify.....

        54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
        55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

        There is that 'death' being done away with . At this moment there is no longer any fear of this 'death'. This 'death' no longer affects the believer. SO physical death is no longer a thing to fear because belief in Jesus will gain us all, every person since that last trump, eternal life after physical death from earthly living.

        What do I have wrong there and what do they say instead....

        I have zero interest in a repeat of your doctrine..... did you get that? I have no interest in a repeat of your OPINION , ...to be sure...I COULDN'T CARE LESS ABOUT YOUR DOCTRINE............ I want to know what you think those verses say... don't be a wussy now, reading the bible won't hurt a bit.

        noble



        Comment


        • Tom replies

          Oh look another post from Noble where he addresses no rebuttal and leaves out all opposing comment

          Tom replies

          we already did that

          We do not need a second stating of your opinion

          Include comments and address rebuttal


          Tom replies

          Once again Noble demonstrates an inability to read a passage in its context and come to a proper understanding

          1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
          16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
          17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

          Nowhere do we read that the living must die first before they are caught up in the cloud to meet the Lord in the air

          What we have instead is a procession. The dead are raised first this happens in an instant then the living are caught up in the cloud together with the dead and together they meet the lord in the air

          Similar is

          1Co 15:51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
          52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
          53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
          54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
          55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

          Both passages speak of events that happened at the second physical advent of Christ

          In a moment (instant) the dead are raised and the living are changed to immortal

          Further in identifying those who undergo this change we have the term mortal. Mortal defines those that can die. Well we all know it is the body that. dies. Thus we have in view a physical change in the body that renders it immortal

          Nobles misinterpretation is necessary to save his eschatology from the obvious fact this has not happened. The dead have not been resurrected bodily and the living have not been changed to immortal and caught up

          And no Noble you have no proof all you have is misinterpretation and eisegesis


          Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

          Comment


          • TomL;



            1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
            16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
            17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

            Nowhere do we read that the living must die first before they are caught up in the cloud to meet the Lord in the air

            What we have instead is a procession. The dead are raised first this happens in an instant then the living are caught up in the cloud together with the dead and together they meet the lord in the air
            Okay so you know that the dead are raised t be in the air in the cloud. Yes, it is in the blink of an eye as well. Your next sentence is flawed..... the living are not going anywhere. 1 COR 15:50 tells you they can not. End of story. Before they can even be judged they have to die first, Hebrews 9:27. How does anybody know if it is heaven or Hell if they are not judged, and they have to physically die to be judged. Then, if found righteou they can be taken to be in the air, in the cloud together in the same place as the resurrectee's went. That is easy to figure concerning the people who are actually alive at the moment of the coming but what about you and I who will die 2000 years AFTER the coming??? SImple , the same thing happens.... we face the judgement seat of CHrist, 2 COR 5;10, bu our words we are acquitted or condemned, if acquitted we are a=off t heaven, given a heavenly body suitable for eternal life in heaven WITH Jesus.

            1Co 15:51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
            52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
            53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
            54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
            55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

            Both passages speak of events that happened at the second physical advent of Christ
            ]

            This happens at the parousia... the physical part there is your doctrine. Prove it is physical and away we go.

            In a moment (instant) the dead are raised and the living are changed to immortal
            No, in fact I'm not sure how you can mangle one sentence t this extent.... the dead rising is not what is spoken about. Yes the resurrection of the righteous dead of that first resurrection, Rev 20:4 and 6 doesn't take more than two blinks at most, but it is the SLEEP and the CHANGE which is talked about here.. Those two things are what is said to occur in the twink!

            Further in identifying those who undergo this change we have the term mortal. Mortal defines those that can die. Well we all know it is the body that. dies. Thus we have in view a physical change in the body that renders it immortal

            You do NOT have the word mortal in the sentence where it mentions sleep and change. The mortal is in the moral person becoming immortal in the resurrection. All of this the resurrection, the sleep ending, the change happening is all in that timeframe of the parousia.

            Nobles misinterpretation is necessary to save his eschatology from the obvious fact this has not happened. The dead have not been resurrected bodily and the living have not been changed to immortal and caught up
            Unless Jesus lied to John, Andrew, James and Peter, it has happened.

            Sleep ends at the moment of the last trump or coming of the Lord.... do you understand that much?

            noble

            Comment


            • Originally posted by noble View Post



              1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
              16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
              17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
              Tom replies

              Yet another post from Noble where he leaves out the majority of comments


              We do not need a another restating of your opinion

              Include comments and address rebuttal Noble


              Tom replies

              Once again Noble demonstrates an inability to read a passage in its context and come to a proper understanding

              1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
              16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
              17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

              Nowhere do we read that the living must die first before they are caught up in the cloud to meet the Lord in the air

              What we have instead is a procession. The dead are raised first this happens in an instant then the living are caught up in the cloud together with the dead and together they meet the lord in the air

              Similar is

              1Co 15:51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
              52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
              53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
              54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
              55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

              Both passages speak of events that happened at the second physical advent of Christ

              In a moment (instant) the dead are raised and the living are changed to immortal

              Further in identifying those who undergo this change we have the term mortal. Mortal defines those that can die. Well we all know it is the body that. dies. Thus we have in view a physical change in the body that renders it immortal

              Nobles misinterpretation is necessary to save his eschatology from the obvious fact this has not happened. The dead have not been resurrected bodily and the living have not been changed to immortal and caught up

              And no Noble you have no proof all you have is misinterpretation and eisegesis

              .................................................. ............


              Now for what Noble claims


              Originally posted by noble View Post
              Okay so you know that the dead are raised t be in the air in the cloud. Yes, it is in the blink of an eye as well. Your next sentence is flawed..... the living are not going anywhere.
              Tom replies

              read Noble read . It is not hard

              1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

              Oh look scripture shows Noble to be in denial again

              he appeals to

              1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

              but seems to forget this is why

              51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
              52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
              53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

              The living are changed to immortal

              Originally posted by noble View Post
              No, in fact I'm not sure how you can mangle one sentence t this extent.... the dead rising is not what is spoken about. Yes the resurrection of the righteous dead of that first resurrection, Rev 20:4 and 6 doesn't take more than two blinks at most, but it is the SLEEP and the CHANGE which is talked about here.. Those two things are what is said to occur in the twink!
              Tom replies

              Noble offers still more evidence of his reading disability

              stating the dead rising is not what is spoken about

              Really ?

              52................................................ .................................and the dead shall be raised incorruptible


              LOL

              and the change is

              and the dead shall be raised incorruptible

              and we shall be changed.
              53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

              Tom continued

              Further in identifying those who undergo this change we have the term mortal. Mortal defines those that can die. Well we all know it is the body that. dies. Thus we have in view a physical change in the body that renders it immortal


              Originally posted by noble View Post
              You do NOT have the word mortal in the sentence where it mentions sleep and change. The mortal is in the moral person becoming immortal in the resurrection. All of this the resurrection, the sleep ending, the change happening is all in that timeframe of the Parousia.
              Tom replies

              DUH that is the change

              LOL

              The for of verse 53

              For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

              links us back to what was just stated

              Noble you are in desperate need of some remedial reading education
              Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

              Comment


              • TomL;

                and the change is

                and the dead shall be raised incorruptible

                and we shall be changed.
                53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

                Tom continued

                Further in identifying those who undergo this change we have the term mortal. Mortal defines those that can die. Well we all know it is the body that. dies. Thus we have in view a physical change in the body that renders it immortal
                No Tom the change is NOT the dead being raised incorruptible.

                Here is why: Here we are talking about dead people being resurrected. They are sleeping prior to being resurrected. However as you can see... no, as MOST could see......, the resurrection takes place at the coming, and the caught up are not 'caught up' until after the coming. They can not possibly be caught up AT the coming because verse 15 tells you... well it tells most people.... that they are still alive and remaining ON earth at the time of the coming.

                No for sure those who are dead that are raised in the resurrection are made immortal and taken to eternal life in heaven. However, the dead in CHrist are not the only righteous people who are sleeping and 1 Thess 4:15 tells you.... well it tells most of us..... that ALL the sleepers have to be made immortal before the people ALIVE at the time can be raised. People like Daniel also sleep in the dust and they are resurrected at the end of the age. That is later that LAST DAY of the coming of the son of man on the clouds immediately after the great tribulation. It is at some time AFTER that when those alive at the coming of the Lord can be caught up.

                So much for all of these people going to be in the cloud t the same time... that is impossible. That makes the 'change' something other that the resurrections. Because the change takes place at the instant of the coming and the resurrections and the catching up is not in an instant the change can not possibly be what you say it is.

                Next Paul explains it like this:

                51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet;

                At the mpoment of the last trump two things happen...
                1) WE will not all sleep
                2) WE will all be changed.

                Paul includes himself in the group of humans who could be alive at the moment of the coming. Paul may have to sleep, maybe not.... and that depended on whether Paul lived at the time of the coming or if he died before the coming. If he died BEFORE the lat trump, coming, Paul would have to sleep. If he died after the last trump he would NOT have to sleep.
                However no matter when he physically died, he would be changed at the moment of the last trump. So again the change can not be anything to do with resurrection because Paul will be changed yet Paul need not require a resurrection.
                The -CHANGE- is very simply , that after the last trump there is no longer any need to sleep.. Sleeping and waiting for a resurrection from the dead is over at the PAROUSIA.

                noble

                Comment


                • Originally posted by noble View Post
                  TomL;
                  No Tom the change is NOT the dead being raised incorruptible.
                  noble
                  Tom replies

                  Come out of your denial

                  1Co 15:51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
                  52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
                  53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

                  54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

                  Hello

                  The dead are raised incorruptible

                  and we (the living) shall be changed FOR

                  this corruptible must put on incorruption,

                  Hello All are changed

                  All put on incorruption

                  Learn to read Noble


                  Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                  Comment


                  • [QUOTE=TomL

                    If you ever get brave enough to respond to this, I'll be happy to read your story. Just proving to me yet again that you don't know what 1 cor 15:51 to 54 says doesn't help your cause.

                    Here you go...

                    [I]No Tom the change is NOT the dead being raised incorruptible.

                    Here is why: Here we are talking about dead people being resurrected. They are sleeping prior to being resurrected. However as you can see... no, as MOST could see......, the resurrection takes place at the coming, and the caught up are not 'caught up' until after the coming. They can not possibly be caught up AT the coming because verse 15 tells you... well it tells most people.... that they are still alive and remaining ON earth at the time of the coming.

                    No for sure those who are dead that are raised in the resurrection are made immortal and taken to eternal life in heaven. However, the dead in CHrist are not the only righteous people who are sleeping and 1 Thess 4:15 tells you.... well it tells most of us..... that ALL the sleepers have to be made immortal before the people ALIVE at the time can be raised. People like Daniel also sleep in the dust and they are resurrected at the end of the age. That is later that LAST DAY of the coming of the son of man on the clouds immediately after the great tribulation. It is at some time AFTER that when those alive at the coming of the Lord can be caught up.

                    So much for all of these people going to be in the cloud t the same time... that is impossible. That makes the 'change' something other that the resurrections. Because the change takes place at the instant of the coming and the resurrections and the catching up is not in an instant the change can not possibly be what you say it is.

                    Next Paul explains it like this:

                    51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet;

                    At the moment of the last trump two things happen...
                    1) WE will not all sleep
                    2) WE will all be changed.

                    Paul includes himself in the group of humans who could be alive at the moment of the coming. Paul may have to sleep, maybe not.... and that depended on whether Paul lived at the time of the coming or if he died before the coming. If he died BEFORE the lat trump, coming, Paul would have to sleep. If he died after the last trump he would NOT have to sleep.
                    However no matter when he physically died, he would be changed at the moment of the last trump. So again the change can not be anything to do with resurrection because Paul will be changed yet Paul need not require a resurrection.
                    The -CHANGE- is very simply , that after the last trump there is no longer any need to sleep.. Sleeping and waiting for a resurrection from the dead is over at the PAROUSIA.[/I]

                    noble

                    Comment


                    • [QUOTE=noble;n5020880]
                      Originally posted by TomL

                      If you ever get brave enough to respond to this, I'll be happy to read your story. Just proving to me yet again that you don't know what 1 cor 15:51 to 54 says doesn't help your cause.

                      Here you go...

                      [I
                      No Tom the change is NOT the dead being raised incorruptible.

                      Here is why: Here we are talking about dead people being resurrected. They are sleeping prior to being resurrected. However as you can see... no, as MOST could see......, the resurrection takes place at the coming, and the caught up are not 'caught up' until after the coming. They can not possibly be caught up AT the coming because verse 15 tells you... well it tells most people.... that they are still alive and remaining ON earth at the time of the coming.
                      Tom replies

                      Try again

                      1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

                      They are on the earth at the coming then they arecaught up

                      Read Noble read
                      Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                      Comment


                      • [QUOTE=TomL;n5021481]
                        Originally posted by noble View Post

                        Tom replies

                        Try again

                        1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

                        They are on the earth at the coming then they are caught up

                        Read Noble read
                        To pre tribbers everywhere , notice this from Tom.....

                        They are on the earth at the coming then they are caught up
                        On earth until the coming..... ON earth until the coming ....and...THEN.... as in after the coming.... they are caught up!!!!!

                        LIKE NOT PRE TRIB BUT AFTER THE COMING...... there is no RAPTURE period but for sure NOT pre trib...even Tom knows that.

                        Now back to those catcher uppers. They are alive at the coming. They are on earth at the coming.
                        1 COR 15
                        50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

                        Nope the flesh and blood body of a person does not fly off to be with Jesus in the clouds at any time. To be sure we KNOW that at death the spirit leaves the flesh....

                        2 Peter 1:13
                        I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, 14 because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.
                        When that spirit does leave the flesh, the spirit returns to God and the flesh rots.

                        That earthly body is destroyed by decay and besides it is stone cold dead . Jesus judges the person who used to be in that flesh body and if that person is found righteous that spirit is off to heaven where God covers it with a heavenly body which is suitable for eternal life IN heaven WITH Jesus...

                        Remember the flesh counts for nothing.
                        John 6
                        63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

                        Now what we are after here is what is the change of 1 COR 15:51.

                        So above we have proof that this catching up has to take place over time..... well both the sleep thing and the change thing takes place at the same blink of an eye at the last trump. Hence the change can not be any resurrection. The change is that at that instant Jesus establishes the kingdom of heaven to which the dead and the living can now enter in and spend eternity after there life on planet earth.

                        noble

                        Comment





                        • Tom replies

                          Try again

                          1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

                          They are on the earth at the coming then they are caught up

                          Read Noble read




                          Originally posted by noble View Post
                          To pre tribbers everywhere , notice this from Tom.....


                          "They are on the earth at the coming then they are caught up"


                          On earth until the coming..... ON earth until the coming ....and...THEN.... as in after the coming.... they are caught up!!!!!


                          Tom replies

                          15 According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
                          16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
                          17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord for ever.

                          I looked but it just doesn't say after the coming of the lord


                          Originally posted by noble View Post
                          LIKE NOT PRE TRIB BUT AFTER THE COMING...... there is no RAPTURE period but for sure NOT pre trib...even Tom knows that.

                          Tom replies

                          Why another diversion

                          Once again there is no mention of after the coming of the lord

                          Originally posted by noble View Post
                          Now back to those catcher uppers. They are alive at the coming. They are on earth at the coming.
                          1 COR 15
                          50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

                          Nope the flesh and blood body of a person does not fly off to be with Jesus in the clouds at any time. To be sure we KNOW that at death the spirit leaves the flesh....

                          Tom replies

                          You ignored something

                          51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
                          52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
                          53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

                          all shall be changed

                          Hello mortal flesh and blood no more

                          Originally posted by noble View Post
                          2 Peter 1:13
                          I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, 14 because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.
                          When that spirit does leave the flesh, the spirit returns to God and the flesh rots.

                          Tom replies

                          You leave something out here as well

                          Job 19:26 And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God;

                          EZE 37:4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
                          5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
                          6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
                          7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
                          8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
                          9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
                          10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.


                          Isa 26:19 But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.

                          Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
                          3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

                          Jn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
                          29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

                          1Co 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;

                          Jn 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
                          20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
                          21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

                          with

                          1Co 15:12 ¶ Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

                          In the bible we read of destroyed flesh coming back into existence once again and bodies coming out of graves and awakening


                          Originally posted by noble View Post
                          That earthly body is destroyed by decay and besides it is stone cold dead . Jesus judges the person who used to be in that flesh body and if that person is found righteous that spirit is off to heaven where God covers it with a heavenly body which is suitable for eternal life IN heaven WITH Jesus...

                          Tom replies

                          Except all the verses above which show the flesh restored, the dead body rising and coming out of the grave


                          Originally posted by noble View Post
                          Remember the flesh counts for nothing.
                          John 6
                          63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

                          Tom replies

                          Er you ignored context as you often do

                          Jn 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
                          59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
                          60 ¶ Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
                          61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
                          62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
                          63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

                          It has nothing to do with the resurrection body



                          Originally posted by noble View Post
                          Now what we are after here is what is the change of 1 COR 15:51.

                          So above we have proof that this catching up has to take place over time..... well both the sleep thing and the change thing takes place at the same blink of an eye at the last trump. Hence the change can not be any resurrection. The change is that at that instant Jesus establishes the kingdom of heaven to which the dead and the living can now enter in and spend eternity after there life on planet earth.
                          noble

                          Tom replies

                          Sorry you presented no proof of your claim. The fact is your claim is contradicted by the passage itself

                          The change is this

                          1Co 15:51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
                          52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
                          53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

                          1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
                          17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

                          your idea the dead are waiting in clouds until all the living die to meet the lord is bizarre and quite clearly ant scriptural
                          Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                          Comment



                          • TomL

                            Try again

                            1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

                            They are on the earth at the coming then they are caught up
                            Yes Tom let's try again....

                            I doubt you can actually pull this off but let's giver a whirl anyway...

                            Concentrate on that "we which are alive and remain"part for a second Just lock that right in. It is important to identify who these people really are because it is necessary to know later in this verse and how it relates to other verses... Okay Tom follow me up to verse 15:

                            15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

                            "we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord," There were a relatively few people alive on planet earth when the instant of the coming of the Lord happened. Poof it was there and there were believers alive and sitting on rocking chairs ...here is the key... THEY were alive and remaining on earth as the coming...come-d!!!!

                            You rattle on about verse 52

                            52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

                            In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:......

                            In the moment of the last trump....... very quickly..... that is when the sleep thing hits and that is the moment when the change takes place. At that same moment some dead people were raised to be incorruptible , to be immortal which is raised to be IN heaven WITH Jesus for eternity.

                            Another thing 1 Thess 4:15 says is:

                            " will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." ... so those relatively few people who are alive on earth at the moment of the coming, can not... that is CAN NOT..... be raised to be incorruptible until ALL of the sleepers are.raised to be incorruptible.

                            It has to be noted and totally understood that the 'sleepers' include a lot more people than just those of 1 Thess 4:16. In vere 16 it is only the dead in CHrist or the participants of the first resurrection. Those of Rev 20:4 and 6. Some other dead people would be Daniel and his folks and it says very clearly they are not raised to be incorrupt until the end of the age. That is 1000 years after that first resurrection of 1 Thess 4:16...Rev 20:5. Now I think you have to be forgetting a few verses to think it is a literal 1000 years but you have to be worse to think it as the same MOMENT. The best bet is that both resurrections are the same last day, which os what God calls a thousand years and besides John 6:40 and John 12:48 both say last day. No matter what they are not both at the same moment.

                            So there is one example of why those people who are caught up are not caught up at the same time as the resurrections of the dead.Poof goes this idea of'change' as you are trying to tell me.

                            BUT... there is much more,.... the change takes place to ALL people... yes living or dead people but the change is not to immortality at the moment of the last trump.
                            Those people who were alive on earth as Jesus returned were changed at the moment of the last trump too but they are still alive later in that LAST DAY until after the rest of the dead are raised. That is what verse 15 says. So what was the change then? Very simple and the clue is in the 'some will sleep' , 'some will not' part. At the exact moment of the coming all people living and dead were given the opportunity to become incorrupt after their physical death from earth. They no longer had to sleep after the last trump because at the last trump Jesus establishes the kingdom f heaven making eternal life instantly available to all righteous people....whether they are already dead or they have yet to die.

                            The next really important thing is that this has been over for 2000 years. SO if people were going to become immortal at the coming that would be over and John th Baptist would be alive on earth today or alive in heaven or whatever farce you apply to that. We know that because Paul who KNEW what generation was involved included himself as possibly living until the last trump. Paul was part of the WE in verse 15.

                            well there is try #2... did you get anything that time?

                            noble

                            Comment


                            • Tom replies

                              Noble you just restated your same old nonsense deal with what is written both old and new

                              Tom replies

                              Try again

                              1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

                              They are on the earth at the coming then they are caught up

                              Read Noble read

                              The passage says nothing about the living dying and caught up one by one

                              rather the collective of those who are alive at the coming are caught up together with them in the clouds.

                              The dead are not sitting around in the cloud waiting for the living to die to be caught up

                              Jointly they meet the lord in the air

                              You will note it is at Christ's decent

                              1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
                              16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
                              17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

                              that the living and the dead meet with Christ in the air

                              There is no permanent home in the clouds or the meeting place in the air



                              Originally posted by noble View Post
                              To pre tribbers everywhere , notice this from Tom.....


                              "They are on the earth at the coming then they are caught up"


                              On earth until the coming..... ON earth until the coming ....and...THEN.... as in after the coming.... they are caught up!!!!!


                              Tom replies

                              15 According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
                              16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
                              17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord for ever.

                              I looked but it just doesn't say after the coming of the lord



                              Originally posted by noble View Post
                              LIKE NOT PRE TRIB BUT AFTER THE COMING...... there is no RAPTURE period but for sure NOT pre trib...even Tom knows that.




                              Tom replies

                              Why another diversion

                              Once again there is no mention of after the coming of the lord

                              Noble for some reason feels free to add or subtract from scripture at will


                              Originally posted by noble View Post
                              Now back to those catcher uppers. They are alive at the coming. They are on earth at the coming.
                              1 COR 15
                              50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

                              Nope the flesh and blood body of a person does not fly off to be with Jesus in the clouds at any time. To be sure we KNOW that at death the spirit leaves the flesh....




                              Tom replies

                              You ignored something

                              51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
                              52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
                              53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

                              all shall be changed

                              Do you know what the word all means Noble

                              Hello mortal flesh and blood no more


                              Originally posted by noble View Post
                              2 Peter 1:13
                              I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, 14 because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.
                              When that spirit does leave the flesh, the spirit returns to God and the flesh rots.




                              Tom replies

                              You leave something out here as well

                              Job 19:26 And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God;

                              EZE 37:4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
                              5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
                              6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
                              7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
                              8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
                              9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
                              10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.


                              Isa 26:19 But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.

                              Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
                              3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

                              Jn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
                              29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

                              1Co 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;

                              Jn 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
                              20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
                              21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

                              with

                              1Co 15:12 ¶ Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

                              In the bible we read of destroyed flesh coming back into existence once again and bodies coming out of graves and awakening



                              Originally posted by noble View Post
                              That earthly body is destroyed by decay and besides it is stone cold dead . Jesus judges the person who used to be in that flesh body and if that person is found righteous that spirit is off to heaven where God covers it with a heavenly body which is suitable for eternal life IN heaven WITH Jesus...




                              Tom replies

                              Except all the verses above which show the flesh restored, the dead body rising and coming out of the grave



                              Originally posted by noble View Post
                              Remember the flesh counts for nothing.
                              John 6
                              63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.




                              Tom replies

                              Er you ignored context as you often do

                              Jn 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
                              59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
                              60 ¶ Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
                              61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
                              62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
                              63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

                              It has nothing to do with the resurrection body




                              Originally posted by noble View Post
                              Now what we are after here is what is the change of 1 COR 15:51.

                              So above we have proof that this catching up has to take place over time..... well both the sleep thing and the change thing takes place at the same blink of an eye at the last trump. Hence the change can not be any resurrection. The change is that at that instant Jesus establishes the kingdom of heaven to which the dead and the living can now enter in and spend eternity after there life on planet earth.



                              noble

                              Tom replies

                              Sorry you presented no proof of your claim. The fact is your claim is contradicted by the passage itself

                              The change is this

                              1Co 15:51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
                              52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
                              53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

                              1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
                              17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

                              your idea the dead are waiting in clouds until all the living die to meet the lord is bizarre and quite clearly anti- scriptural

                              Further you have but an imaginary change

                              According to you before the resurrection the body dies and lays in the ground forever
                              After the resurrection according to you yep the same the body dies and lays in the ground forever

                              Where is the change Noble ??

                              Where is the corruptible that puts on incorruption ?

                              Where is the mortal that puts on immortaility Noble ?
                              Last edited by TomL; 01-14-18, 06:42 AM.
                              Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by TomL;

                                [QUOTE
                                Where is the change Noble ??
                                The change happens at the very moment f the last trump.. It takes place in an instant, At that moment it is no longer ever again necessary for anyone to SLEEP and wait for a resurrection from the dead because there are no more resurrections from the dead.

                                Comment

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