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Preterism has been completely debunked here...

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  • Originally posted by Truther View Post

    I dont believe in a so called "second person".

    God is not divided into persons.

    Where/when did that idea originate, anyway?
    From the story of Jesus' baptism, where Jesus was present in person, the Holy Spirit came in form of a dove, physically separate from Jesus, & Yahweh spoke from heaven, physically separate from Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

    AND...

    From the fact Jesus said, "MY FATHER is greater than I." Even jesus can't be greater than Himself!

    AND...

    From the fact Jesus PRAYED. If Jesus weren't praying to someone, He was sinning.

    Scripture presents the Holy Trinity doctrine by the clearest of implications.

    BUT THIS HAS NOTHINGTA DO WITH PRETERISM!

    Comment


    • Originally posted by roby3 View Post

      From the story of Jesus' baptism, where Jesus was present in person, the Holy Spirit came in form of a dove, physically separate from Jesus, & Yahweh spoke from heaven, physically separate from Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

      AND...

      From the fact Jesus said, "MY FATHER is greater than I." Even jesus can't be greater than Himself!

      AND...

      From the fact Jesus PRAYED. If Jesus weren't praying to someone, He was sinning.

      Scripture presents the Holy Trinity doctrine by the clearest of implications.

      BUT THIS HAS NOTHINGTA DO WITH PRETERISM!
      Sorry about the Godhead discussion. Not sure how that started.

      I believe there are 2 beings, but not 2 person in the Godhead.

      One being is glorified human, and the other being(God) is fully indwelling the Glorified human being, bodily.

      They are not "co-equal", which phrase is not found in the Bible.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Truther View Post

        Wait Tom.

        Who invented the 2 person idea?

        Does it say 2 persons in our Bibles?

        Am I supposed to believe there are 2 persons in the Godhead without finding out who first said it?

        Aren't you curious about the founders of your beliefs?
        Tom replies

        What was not understood

        The answer to your questions is scripture

        Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
        2 The same was in the beginning with God.
        3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
        4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.


        There is the God and there is the logos
        One was with the other and both are called God

        Do you deny God is personal ?

        Can you deny him the attributes of personhood ?

        A
        person
        is a being that has certain capacities or attributes such as reason, morality, consciousness, or self consciousness
        Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

        Comment


        • Originally posted by TomL View Post

          Tom replies

          What was not understood

          The answer to your questions is scripture
          Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
          2 The same was in the beginning with God.
          3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
          4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.


          There is the God and there is the logos
          One was with the other and both are called God


          Do you deny God is personal ?

          Can you deny him the attributes of personhood ?
          A
          person
          is a being that has certain capacities or attributes such as reason, morality, consciousness, or self consciousness
          See how you read 'person" into the Bible?

          I read "God/spoken word", not "person".

          Now, you think it says "In the beginning was the 2nd person and the 2nd person was with the 1st person and the 2nd person was the 1st person", right?
          Last edited by Truther; 02-13-18, 09:06 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Truther View Post

            Sorry about the Godhead discussion. Not sure how that started.

            I believe there are 2 beings, but not 2 person in the Godhead.

            One being is glorified human, and the other being(God) is fully indwelling the Glorified human being, bodily.

            They are not "co-equal", which phrase is not found in the Bible.
            Actually, there are THREE - Father(Yahweh), Son (Jesus) and Holy Spirit.

            Now, aint it just sneaky-Pete suspicious how preterists here try to turn the conversations from the FACT that the prophesied events they SAY have already occurred are totally-absent from history?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Truther View Post

              See how you read 'person" into the Bible?

              I read "God/spoken word", not "person".

              Now, you think it says "In the beginning was the 2nd person and the 2nd person was with the 1st person and the 2nd person was the 1st person", right?
              Tom replies

              Are you afraid of the word person ?

              It is simply a tool used to describe what the bible does teach

              Was the word a conscious/self conscious being or not ?

              Was he other than who we refer to as the Father ?

              BTW you are wrong I do not think the 2nd person was the 1st person?

              apparently you do not know what orthodox Christians believe

              Now why don't you explain how you believe a being with no existence at the time of creation created all things











              Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

              Comment


              • Originally posted by TomL View Post

                Tom replies

                Are you afraid of the word person ?

                It is simply a tool used to describe what the bible does teach

                Was the word a conscious/self conscious being or not ?

                Was he other than who we refer to as the Father ?

                BTW you are wrong I do not think the 2nd person was the 1st person?

                apparently you do not know what orthodox Christians believe

                Now why don't you explain how you believe a being with no existence at the time of creation created all things










                It is simple.

                It says in the beginning was the spoken word, the spoken word was with God and the spoken word was God.

                Next it says all the world was made by the spoken word.(verse 3)

                Next it say the spoken word was made flesh.(verse 14)


                So, the spoken word of someone is not another being, but it is a part of them.

                Your word is you, and my word is me, not visa-versa.

                Our word is not another person, neither is God's word another person.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by roby3 View Post

                  Actually, there are THREE - Father(Yahweh), Son (Jesus) and Holy Spirit.

                  Now, aint it just sneaky-Pete suspicious how preterists here try to turn the conversations from the FACT that the prophesied events they SAY have already occurred are totally-absent from history?
                  Yes, I used your method on another preterist forum(thanks for the ammo).

                  I asked them to prove these things happened in history.

                  It infuriates them when I say "prove it"....LOL.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Truther View Post

                    Yes, I used your method on another preterist forum(thanks for the ammo).

                    I asked them to prove these things happened in history.

                    It infuriates them when I say "prove it"....LOL.
                    I don't get mad at the fact we can't prove the coming of the resurrections from history... far from it. There was no living mortal capable of recording the events ALIVE to record it.. it happened in the spiritual realm... I do get ticked at people too stupid or perhaps too fraudulent to read scripture sometimes which explains Jesus predicting things to come..... in THIS generation... the generation of John, Andrew, James and Peter..

                    noble

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by noble View Post

                      I don't get mad at the fact we can't prove the coming of the resurrections from history... far from it. There was no living mortal capable of recording the events ALIVE to record it.. it happened in the spiritual realm... I do get ticked at people too stupid or perhaps too fraudulent to read scripture sometimes which explains Jesus predicting things to come..... in THIS generation... the generation of John, Andrew, James and Peter..

                      noble
                      It was so mind blowing and powerful, the human race declined to comment on it?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Truther View Post

                        It was so mind blowing and powerful, the human race declined to comment on it?
                        Ah, no, it fact there was a best seller of all time written about it...The Holy Bible.

                        noble

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Truther View Post

                          It is simple.

                          It says in the beginning was the spoken word, the spoken word was with God and the spoken word was God.

                          Next it says all the world was made by the spoken word.(verse 3)

                          Next it say the spoken word was made flesh.(verse 14)


                          So, the spoken word of someone is not another being, but it is a part of them.

                          Your word is you, and my word is me, not visa-versa.

                          Our word is not another person, neither is God's word another person.

                          Tom replies

                          So you believe the spoken word creates ?

                          Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

                          Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

                          And that the spoken word has glory ?

                          Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

                          and the spoken word has self conscious existence ?

                          sorry those are attributes of personhood

                          As for what you stated

                          And the words you speak are you ?

                          Really ? they have self conscious existence, morality, capability of thought and planning , desires etc
                          Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by TomL View Post


                            Tom replies

                            So you believe the spoken word creates ?

                            Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

                            Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

                            And that the spoken word has glory ?

                            Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

                            and the spoken word has self conscious existence ?

                            sorry those are attributes of personhood

                            As for what you stated

                            And the words you speak are you ?

                            Really ? they have self conscious existence, morality, capability of thought and planning , desires etc
                            Sure, God's word is the creative part of God.

                            God did not use his son as a tool to make things in the beginning, but made things THROUGH him and FOR him.

                            The message of the Bible is God inside Christ, not God alongside Christ.

                            Comment


                            • Tom....




                              Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.



                              Tom......



                              3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

                              4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

                              5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

                              6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

                              7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

                              8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

                              9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

                              10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

                              11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

                              12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

                              13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

                              14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

                              15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

                              16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

                              17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

                              18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

                              19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

                              20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven......





                              Tom, God's word made everything.



                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Truther View Post

                                Sure, God's word is the creative part of God.

                                God did not use his son as a tool to make things in the beginning, but made things THROUGH him and FOR him.

                                The message of the Bible is God inside Christ, not God alongside Christ.
                                Tom replies

                                Really ?

                                God (the Father) with Christ

                                Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

                                Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

                                Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

                                You fail to distinguish between the noun theos when used as a title usually ho theos to speak of the Father and when it is used descriptively of a class of divine being

                                Sorry creation takes intelligence and planning that does not exist in speech

                                Other than that you left a few items unanswered


                                So you believe the spoken word creates ?


                                Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


                                Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.


                                And that the spoken word has glory ?


                                Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


                                and the spoken word has self conscious existence ?


                                sorry those are attributes of personhood


                                As for what you stated


                                And the words you speak are you ?


                                Really ? they have self conscious existence, morality, capability of thought and planning , desires etc








                                Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                                Comment

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