Announcement

Collapse

Message to all users:

https://carm.org/forum-rules

Super Member Subscription
https://carm.org/carm-super-members-banner-ad-signup

As most of you are aware, we had a crash to forums and were down for over two days a while back. We did have to do an upgrade to the vbulletin software to fix the forums and that has created changes, VB no longer provide the hybrid or threaded forums. There are some issues/changes to the forums we are not able to fix or change. Also note the link address change, please let friends and posters know of the changed link to the forums. For now this is the only link available, https://forums.carm.org/vb5/ but if clicking on forum on carm.org homepage it will now send you to this link. (edited to add https: now working.

Again, we are working through some of the posting and viewing issues to learn how to post with the changes, you will have to check and test the different features, icons that have changed. You may also want to go to profile settings,since many of the notifications, information in profile, also to update/edit your avatar by clicking on avatar space, pull down arrow next to login for user settings.

Edit to add "How to read forums, to make it easier."
Pull down arrow next to login name upper right select profile, or user settings when page opens to profile,select link in tab that says Account. Then select/choose options, go down to Conversation Detail Options, Select Display mode Posts, NOT Activity, that selection of Posts will make the pages of discussions go to last post on last page rather than out of order that happens if you choose activity threads. Then be sure to go to bottom and select SAVE Changes in your profile options. You can then follow discussions by going through the pages, to the last page having latest responses. Then click on the other links Privacy, Notifications, to select viewing options,the forums get easier if you open all the tabs or links in your profile, user settings and select options. To join Super Member, pull down arrow next to login name, select User Settings and then click on tab/link at top that says Subscriptions.

Thank you for your patience and God Bless.

Diane S
https://carm.org/forum-rules
See more
See less

All the futurist farce items disappear when we prove the time of the GT and Parousia

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • TomL;

    You quoted 1 COR 15:... I showed you what the verses meant twice now and you have ignored them both times.. however for the slower ones we must be ultra patient!

    Here is explanation #3

    Next I wrote out what the verses you quote mean in post #1092 but I;ll cut and paste it for you:

    1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

    Adam caused the death in question by chewing on a kiwi. Jesus resurrected all who died because if that.

    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    Different thing here.... just like Adam physically died, for all who die in Christ will be made alive..... the general resurrection includes more people than just h=those who die IN Christ,
    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

    Here is where you are really screwed up.. what this verses says is that there is an order in which the dead will be resurrected. Jesus of course was first and those of Rev 20:4 and 6 are next at the coming. Those of 1 Thess 4:16.

    51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    At the moment of the last trump or coming of the son, parousia...... some will sleep, some will not, ALL people whether they are sleeping or not will be changed.

    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    The change and the no sleep thing happens at the moment of the last trump.

    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put n immortality.

    The people who are corruptible must put on incorruptibility and the mortal must put on immortality.

    You dribbled away at a couple of my comments and then the screen went dead..... the verses do NOT back up what you say they do.


    It transpires after your 2Ti 1:10
    Good thing too because it wouldn't have worked if He had abolished death AFTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    So what death is defeated ?
    The death Jesus destroyed in 2 Tim 1:10 was the death that reigned from Adam to Moses. That death that Martha never died,, BECAUSE Martha lived her earthly life until she physically died... Martha instantly began LIVING again in her heavenly eternal life...Martha never died because Jesus had abolished that death.

    Hey there is some verses here from Mark 13 that seem to be baffling you ...what's your problem?

    Sometimes you have a teeny bit of difficulty seeing things so let me repeat the deaththing again....
    The death Jesus destroyed in 2 Tim 1:10 was the death that reigned from Adam to Moses. That death that Martha never died,, BECAUSE Martha lived her earthly life until she physically died... Martha instantly began LIVING again in her heavenly eternal life...Martha never died because Jesus had abolished that death.

    Then I listed some verses from Mark 13 which speak of things that will happen on connection with the destruction of the temple.... comments???????????

    The normal move here would be to read thru what I wrote and offer changes where you feel I have misrepresented the biblical meaning. simple quoted the verses and saying...SEE???? really only proves you don't know much about the verses... and I already knew that.

    noble




    Comment


    • TomL;


      Why can't you answer it ?
      The death Jesus destroyed in 2 Tim 1:10 was the death that reigned from Adam to Moses. That death that Martha never died,, BECAUSE Martha lived her earthly life until she physically died... Martha instantly began LIVING again in her heavenly eternal life...Martha never died because Jesus had abolished that death.

      So there is no death destroyed at the end of the age,,, the end of age is the beginning of new LIFE for millions of righteous people that Jesus raises to eternal life in heaven...... Jesus had destroyed the death 7 years or more before that... I have no idea why He did it when He did it... why did He not destroy death another day...... I have no idea but I do know..

      2 Timothy 1:10 New International Version (NIV)
      10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

      so....

      The death Jesus destroyed in 2 Tim 1:10 was the death that reigned from Adam to Moses. That death that Martha never died,, BECAUSE Martha lived her earthly life until she physically died... Martha instantly began LIVING again in her heavenly eternal life...Martha never died because Jesus had abolished that death.

      Gee maybe I better repeat that once more because you have so much trouble seeing this particular thing...

      The death Jesus destroyed in 2 Tim 1:10 was the death that reigned from Adam to Moses. That death that Martha never died,, BECAUSE Martha lived her earthly life until she physically died... Martha instantly began LIVING again in her heavenly eternal life...Martha never died because Jesus had abolished that death.

      noble

      Comment


      • Everything but what I asked you Noble

        You truly have perfected the art of the dodge

        I asked you about

        1 Corinthians 15:21-26 (KJV)
        21
        For since by man
        came
        death, by man
        came
        also the resurrection of the dead.
        22
        For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
        23
        But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
        24
        Then
        cometh
        the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
        25
        For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
        26
        The last enemy
        that
        shall be destroyed
        is
        death.

        What death is being destroyed , abolished here ?

        Was all death abolished in 2Ti 1:10 ?

        If so why does Paul speak of a death being destroyed abolished here ?

        What is the death is it that is destroyed , abolished at 1Cor 15 ?

        Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

        Comment


        • TomL;

          Everything but what I asked you Noble
          No problem , I'll just keep repeating the answer till you see it....

          I asked you about

          1 Corinthians 15:21-26 (KJV)
          SO I wrote out verses by verse what I read in these verses...........

          Next I wrote out what the verses you quote mean in post #1092 but I;ll cut and paste it for you:

          1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

          Adam caused the death in question by chewing on a kiwi. Jesus resurrected all who died because if that.

          22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

          Different thing here.... just like Adam physically died, for all who die in Christ will be made alive..... the general resurrection includes more people than just h=those who die IN Christ,
          23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

          Here is where you are really screwed up.. what this verses says is that there is an order in which the dead will be resurrected. Jesus of course was first and those of Rev 20:4 and 6 are next at the coming. Those of 1 Thess 4:16.

          51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
          At the moment of the last trump or coming of the son, parousia...... some will sleep, some will not, ALL people whether they are sleeping or not will be changed.

          52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

          The change and the no sleep thing happens at the moment of the last trump.

          53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put n immortality.

          The people who are corruptible must put on incorruptibility and the mortal must put on immortality.

          You dribbled away at a couple of my comments and then the screen went dead..... the verses do NOT back up what you say they do.

          It transpires after your 2Ti 1:10
          Good thing too because it wouldn't have worked if He had abolished death AFTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          So what death is defeated ?
          The death Jesus destroyed in 2 Tim 1:10 was the death that reigned from Adam to Moses. That death that Martha never died,, BECAUSE Martha lived her earthly life until she physically died... Martha instantly began LIVING again in her heavenly eternal life...Martha never died because Jesus had abolished that death.

          So you asked again..

          Was all death abolished in 2Ti 1:10 ?
          NO, NO, NO, all death was not abolished in 2 Tim 1:10. Physical death remain with all living populations of any living thing forever. Dying physically is a very real part of life. So the correct answer to what life is abolished at the end of the age is ...NONE! The end of the age is just the time when all righteous people BENEFIT from the fact the death had been destroyed... they were all raised to eternal life in heaven after they had physically died and slept in the dust/grave/wherever waiting for that resurrection.

          If so why does Paul speak of a death being destroyed abolished here ?
          He doesn't , he tells of how the way back to LIFE happens.

          What is the death is it that is destroyed , abolished at 1Cor 15 ?
          1 cor 15 is about coming back from the death ...like in resurrection! All of the people who would be resurrected are , of course, physically dead and some have been dead for a very long time....clear back to Abel. BUT there is no death abolished here, the death was abolished before the resurrections of 70 AD. According to the bible Jesus had destroyed that last enemy before Paul wrote 2 Tim 1:10.

          So there is no death abolished at the time of or very near the coming.... it came into effect at the end of the age but Jesus had the actual work done of defeating that last enemy before that.... the bible does not explain what 'work' Jesus had to do to destroy that last enemy, it does not say exactly when He had the work done but the bible says it was done by the time Paul wrote 2 Tim 1:10.

          NOw read this next statement carefully.... the bible does not say ANYTHING about destroying physical death, that is said ONLY by your , and similar, denominational teaching. The teaching is wrong, has zero biblical backing at all.

          So to summarize.... there is no death abolished at the time of the resurrections. The resurrection were the result of the fact that Jesus HAD destroyed death. It was at this point that the dead people could begin having their immortal souls taken to heaven for eternity. Prior to that time no one had been to heaven except Jesus.

          Your problem here again is that your denominational doctrine tells of eternity on earth.... not going to happen. HEAVEN IS THE ETERNAL PROMISE NOT EARTH.

          noble

          Comment


          • Tom et al/////

            I have pointed this out on this website x times and I don't think people like you have ever got half way thru it

            The LAST TRUMP of 1 COR 15:51 to 53 is an enormous turning point for mankind.

            Prior to that last trump, people who physically died had to sleep and wait for a resurrection from the dead. AFTER that LAST TRUMP all people who die will meet with Jesus at the judgment seat of Christ.

            So to begin to biblically prove that I will start with this verse:

            John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

            So heaven had no people enjoying eternal life there as John learned this point. NOT necessarily when John wrote about it but but as John learned it from Jesus.

            Okay....do we all know that there was no common folk in heaven prior to when John first learned of what he said in John 3:13.??????

            Comment


            • So forum here is another rendition of the answer Jesus gave to the 4 men after they left the temple.

              Matthew 24
              6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

              9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

              15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

              22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

              26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

              29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

              “‘the sun will be darkened,
              and the moon will not give its light;
              the stars will fall from the sky,
              and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

              30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

              I'll put the 'things' to happen in point form to make it easier.....

              1) These 4 men, John, Andrew, James and peter, would hear of wars
              2) There will be famines and earthquakes.
              3) YOU meaning John, Andrew , James and Peter would face persecution and some of them would be hated by all nations and some of them would be killed.
              4) False prophets will appear
              5) There will be increasing wickedness and love of most people will grow cold.
              6) Those who firmly believe ion Jesus until their death will be saved.
              7)The gospel will be preached to the oikoumene which is NOT the entire planet but the area involved in the conflict.
              8)John, ANdrew, James and Peter will see the abomination which causes desolation.... Jesus tells them to flee from Judea
              9) Jesus tells his followers to move quickly and explains how rough it will be for mothers and mention the cold of winter.
              10) Flee Judea because there is a great tribulation coming there. There has never been such an event before and this will be the last one.
              11) Jesu cut the days short for the sake of His elect.
              12) If people say to John , Andrew, James and Peter..."There He is" it will be a lie.
              13) False teachers will try to deceive
              14) If anyone says to John, Andrew, James and Peter that Jesus is here or there , it is NOT true.
              15) There will be dead carcasses and vultures will gather to eat the flesh.
              16) There will be a great tribulation.
              17) God shakes the heavens for the last time
              18) The PAROUSIA!!!

              noble

              Comment


              • Originally posted by noble View Post
                TomL;



                No problem , I'll just keep repeating the answer till you see it....



                SO I wrote out verses by verse what I read in these verses...........

                Next I wrote out what the verses you quote mean in post #1092 but I;ll cut and paste it for you:

                1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

                Adam caused the death in question by chewing on a kiwi. Jesus resurrected all who died because if that.

                22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

                Different thing here.... just like Adam physically died, for all who die in Christ will be made alive..... the general resurrection includes more people than just h=those who die IN Christ,
                23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

                Here is where you are really screwed up.. what this verses says is that there is an order in which the dead will be resurrected. Jesus of course was first and those of Rev 20:4 and 6 are next at the coming. Those of 1 Thess 4:16.

                51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
                At the moment of the last trump or coming of the son, parousia...... some will sleep, some will not, ALL people whether they are sleeping or not will be changed.

                52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

                The change and the no sleep thing happens at the moment of the last trump.

                53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put n immortality.

                The people who are corruptible must put on incorruptibility and the mortal must put on immortality.

                You dribbled away at a couple of my comments and then the screen went dead..... the verses do NOT back up what you say they do.


                Good thing too because it wouldn't have worked if He had abolished death AFTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


                The death Jesus destroyed in 2 Tim 1:10 was the death that reigned from Adam to Moses. That death that Martha never died,, BECAUSE Martha lived her earthly life until she physically died... Martha instantly began LIVING again in her heavenly eternal life...Martha never died because Jesus had abolished that death.

                So you asked again..



                NO, NO, NO, all death was not abolished in 2 Tim 1:10. Physical death remain with all living populations of any living thing forever. Dying physically is a very real part of life. So the correct answer to what life is abolished at the end of the age is ...NONE! The end of the age is just the time when all righteous people BENEFIT from the fact the death had been destroyed... they were all raised to eternal life in heaven after they had physically died and slept in the dust/grave/wherever waiting for that resurrection.



                He doesn't , he tells of how the way back to LIFE happens.



                1 cor 15 is about coming back from the death ...like in resurrection! All of the people who would be resurrected are , of course, physically dead and some have been dead for a very long time....clear back to Abel. BUT there is no death abolished here, the death was abolished before the resurrections of 70 AD. According to the bible Jesus had destroyed that last enemy before Paul wrote 2 Tim 1:10.

                So there is no death abolished at the time of or very near the coming.... it came into effect at the end of the age but Jesus had the actual work done of defeating that last enemy before that.... the bible does not explain what 'work' Jesus had to do to destroy that last enemy, it does not say exactly when He had the work done but the bible says it was done by the time Paul wrote 2 Tim 1:10.

                NOw read this next statement carefully.... the bible does not say ANYTHING about destroying physical death, that is said ONLY by your , and similar, denominational teaching. The teaching is wrong, has zero biblical backing at all.

                So to summarize.... there is no death abolished at the time of the resurrections. The resurrection were the result of the fact that Jesus HAD destroyed death. It was at this point that the dead people could begin having their immortal souls taken to heaven for eternity. Prior to that time no one had been to heaven except Jesus.

                Your problem here again is that your denominational doctrine tells of eternity on earth.... not going to happen. HEAVEN IS THE ETERNAL PROMISE NOT EARTH.

                noble
                Tom replies

                sorry you still have not really answered all of my question
                I asked you about


                1 Corinthians 15:21-26 (KJV)
                21
                For since by man

                came
                death, by man

                came
                also the resurrection of the dead.

                22
                For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

                23
                But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

                24
                Then

                cometh
                the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

                25
                For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

                26
                The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
                What death is being destroyed , abolished here ?
                Was all death abolished in 2Ti 1:10 ? - To that you say no
                If so why does Paul speak of a death being destroyed abolished here ? You provide no answer
                What is the death is it that is destroyed , abolished at 1Cor 15 ? To that you still do not answer

                You do state


                BUT there is no death abolished here, the death was abolished before the resurrections of 70 AD. According to the bible Jesus had destroyed that last enemy before Paul wrote 2 Tim 1:10.


                However that flies in the face of

                1 Corinthians 15:20-26 (KJV)
                20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
                21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
                22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
                23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
                24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
                25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
                26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

                1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (KJV)
                51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
                52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
                53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
                54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


                which shows the last enemy death was defeated at the return of Christ and the resurrection

                So stop denying scripture and answer the question what death was destroyed here




                Last edited by TomL; 07-10-18, 03:59 PM.
                Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                Comment


                • TomL;

                  TomL;
                  Tom replies

                  sorry you still have not really answered all of my question
                  Yes Tom I answered your question, but never worry , I will answer it again.


                  I asked you about 1 Corinthians 15:21-26 (KJV) [/B]
                  I showed you what the verses in 1 COR 15: 21-26 mean and you have offered no criticism of my interpretation . I can only assume that what I wrote was correct.

                  If so why does Paul speak of a death being destroyed abolished here ? You provide no answer.
                  Of course I did. I told you flat out more than once there is no death abolished in 1 COR 15:21 -26. Where do you get that from ? 1 COR 15:21 to 26 is :
                  21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

                  You have it in your head that PHYSICAL death is destroyed at the parousia and it is not! Jesus reigned until He had destroyed the last enemy....He had destroyed the last enemy by 63 AD when Paul wrote 2 Tim 1:10... physical death is never destroyed...never.... never ..... never! People will continue to physically die til the sun burns out.
                  What is the death is it that is destroyed , abolished at 1Cor 15 ?
                  Read my lips ....there is no death abolished in 1 COR 15! 1 cor 15 is talking about the resurrection from death. The resurrection that was not possible until Jesus destroyed that last enemy death in 2 Tom 1:10. There is no mention of any death being abolished in 1 COR 15.. , it only talks about being raised from the death they had died. There you have physical death but not one of those people were raised to physical life again....they were raised to spiritual life in the spiritual realm of heaven.

                  Why do you think I have quoted all the verses which indicate a first century great trib/parousia? Even the most screwed up of so-called Christians KNOW that the resurrection of the dead take place at or close to the coming or the PAROUSIA. SO once we establish WHEN that great trib/parousa is , then we KNOW that the resurrections can not possibly be to a physical condition and not a renewed life on earth.

                  To that you still do not answer
                  The death was abolished at some time prior to 63 AD. The death that reign from Adam to Moses. That death was NOT physical death. Physical continued after 63 Ad. Physical death continues today and will continue until the sun burns out. The death that was abolished was the death of heavenly life promised in the beginning. God intended man to live on earth, physically die and then to LIVE again forever in Heaven. Adam wrecked that by disobeying God. That death then reigned until Jesus covered off that sin on the cross and the work He did after the cross. He had eternal life set up for mankind again some time before 63 AD and in 70 AD Jesus rectified the sleeping in the dust thing by resurrecting all the dead.

                  You do state

                  BUT there is no death abolished here, the death was abolished before the resurrections of 70 AD. According to the bible Jesus had destroyed that last enemy before Paul wrote 2 Tim 1:10.
                  However that flies in the face of

                  1 Corinthians 15:20-26 (KJV)
                  No it doesn't , those verses do not speak of any death being abolished. They speak of renewed life for the dead....renewed life in heaven, with Jesus forever.

                  26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

                  1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (KJV)
                  51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
                  52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
                  53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
                  54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


                  which shows the last enemy death was defeated at the return of Christ and the resurrection
                  It shows nothing even close to that. The dead were raised to life and there was a change in how all people who would die from then on would attain eternal life but no death was abolished at that time....the abolishing of the death was done a minimum of 7 years before that.

                  So stop denying scripture and answer the question what death was destroyed here
                  Hey Tom guess what???? There was no death abolished at the time of the parousia at all. Many dead people would benefit at that time BECAUSE Jesus had destroyed death.....years before He actually resurrected the dead.

                  Have you ever wondered why you have to remain totally silent on any verses which indicate a first century fulfillment?

                  noble

                  Comment


                  • There was some 'things' in Mtt 24 that Jesus told John, Andrew, James and Peter that would happen. I listed them in a post back a couple...

                    1) These 4 men, John, Andrew, James and peter, would hear of wars

                    The Judean rebellion. That was from 66-70 and there was a event in the top of a mountain 3 years after that.

                    2) There will be famines and earthquakes.

                    Yes, there was people starving to death. there is always earthquakes.............

                    3) YOU meaning John, Andrew , James and Peter would face persecution and some of them would be hated by all nations and some of them would be killed.

                    This happened and in fact happened to some of these very 4 men.

                    4) False prophets will appear

                    Acts 5
                    36 Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. 37 After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered.

                    5) There will be increasing wickedness and love of most people will grow cold.

                    It was not the nicest of neighborhoods in the late 60's in Judea

                    6) Those who firmly believe in Jesus until their death will be saved.

                    Still in effect.
                    7)The gospel will be preached to the oikoumene which is NOT the entire planet but the area involved in the conflict.
                    COL 1:23 says they got it done,

                    8)John, ANdrew, James and Peter will see the abomination which causes desolation.... Jesus tells them to flee from Judea

                    Just a fact from the bible.

                    9) Jesus tells his followers to move quickly and explains how rough it will be for mothers and mention the cold of winter.

                    Just think if the abomination appeared today.... we can bundle up our pregnant or nursing wife , jump in the heated motor home and no problem. In 66 AD there was a law that allowed only a 34 mile walk on a Sunday and in those days the pregnant women had to walk in the cold...I guess Jesus would ask for prayer for them... we don't need prayers now, just a tank of gas.

                    10) Flee Judea because there is a great tribulation coming there. There has never been such an event before and this will be the last one.

                    There it was!!!!
                    11) Jesus cut the days short for the sake of His elect.

                    Nice if Hom , but sure those elect were people He had chosen to be resurrected to eternal life in heaven first.

                    12) If people say to John , Andrew, James and Peter..."There He is" it will be a lie.

                    Those guys were in the generation that would actually be on the planet when the parousia occured bit they would no see it.... because it occurs in the spiritual realm.

                    13) False teachers will try to deceive

                    As shown above , there were false prophets.

                    14) If anyone says to John, Andrew, James and Peter that Jesus is here or there , it is NOT true.

                    Nobody sees the spiritual bodied Jesus.
                    15) There will be dead carcasses and vultures will gather to eat the flesh.

                    Dead people all over the streets.
                    16) There will be a great tribulation.

                    And there was, the Judean rebellion

                    17) God shakes the heavens for the last time

                    There is only ONE last shake.

                    18) The PAROUSIA!!!

                    In 70 AD.

                    noble

                    Comment


                    • TomL;

                      Tom replies

                      sorry you still have not really answered all of my question


                      Noble states
                      Yes Tom I answered your question, but never worry , I will answer it again.

                      Tom replies

                      No Noble you have not and are in denial


                      I asked you about 1 Corinthians 15:21-26 (KJV) [/B]



                      I showed you what the verses in 1 COR 15: 21-26 mean and you have offered no criticism of my interpretation . I can only assume that what I wrote was correct.

                      Tom replies

                      Sorry but you stated there was no death destroyed or abolished

                      That is contrary to the text

                      1 Corinthians 15:21-26 (ESV)
                      21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
                      22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
                      23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
                      24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
                      25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
                      26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

                      that word translated destroyed is the same Greek word translated abolish at 2Ti 1:10

                      (NASB1995) but now <3568> has been revealed <5319> by the appearing <2015> of our Savior <4990> Christ <5547> Jesus <2424>, who abolished <2673> death <2288> and brought <5461> life <2222> and immortality <861> to light <5461> through <1223> the gospel <2098>,

                      See the NASB and the following translations

                      (NASB+) The lastG2078 enemyG2190 that will be abolishedG2673 is deathG2288.
                      (ACV) The last enemy abolished is death.
                      (ARV 2005) The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.
                      (ASV-2014) The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.
                      (ALT) [The] last enemy being abolished [is] death.
                      (ASV) The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.
                      (CLV) The last enemy is being abolished: death.
                      (EMTV) The last enemy that will be abolished is death
                      (Etheridge) and the last enemy be abolished, (which is) death.
                      (FAA) The last enemy which will be abolished is death.
                      (csb) The last enemy He abolishes is death.
                      (LEB) The last enemy to be abolished is death.
                      (NTVR) The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.
                      (Re. Murdock) And the last enemy, death, will be abolished.
                      (RV) The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.
                      (The Disciple's Bible) The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.
                      (WEB) The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
                      WEB (R)) The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
                      (WAS) As the last enemy, death is abolished;

                      and then come out of your denial

                      It transpires at his coming

                      One can believe the word of God and reject your theology

                      or one can believe your theology and reject the word of God

                      but what one cannot do is believe the word of God and believe your theology

                      give it up and believe God
                      Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                      Comment


                      • TomL;

                        Tom replies

                        sorry you still have not really answered all of my question
                        Well, don't worry , if you didn't absorb the answer I will just go ahead and answer you again.... no problem.

                        Tom replies

                        Sorry but you stated there was no death destroyed or abolished
                        Not in 1 COR 15:21-26. ...Paul tells us the order of the resurrections of the dead.... after the resurrections of the dead, naturally all people are living again in eternity in heaven but there is no death abolished here because death was abolished bac in 2 Tim 1:10.
                        That is contrary to the text
                        I showed you what the verses meant twice and you must have agreed... what else do you want to know.

                        The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
                        AND you incorrectly think God means physical death here... He does not. Jesus abolished that last enemy, death, in 2 Tim 1:10.

                        that word translated destroyed is the same Greek word translated abolish at 2Ti 1:10
                        Who cares? Rabbit is the same thing as bunny too, but there is no easter Rabbit!

                        and then come out of your denial

                        It transpires at his coming
                        No, the abolishing was prior to when Paul wrote 2 Tim 1:10. 1 COR 15 talks about the actual resurrections of the dead....NOT the abolishing so the verses you quote have nothing to do with the abolishing of the death.

                        Quiz for you...
                        1) when was death abolished?

                        noble

                        Comment


                        • Tom replies

                          You are running Noble

                          It is clearly shown a death being defeated at 1Cor 15
                          You stated there was no death destroyed or abolished
                          That is contrary to the text


                          1 Corinthians 15:21-26 (ESV)
                          21
                          For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.


                          22
                          For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.


                          23
                          But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.


                          24
                          Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.


                          25
                          For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.


                          26
                          The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
                          that word translated destroyed is the same Greek word translated abolish at 2Ti 1:10
                          (NASB1995) but now <3568> has been revealed <5319> by the appearing <2015> of our Savior <4990> Christ <5547> Jesus <2424>, who abolished <
                          2673 > death <2288> and brought <5461> life <2222> and immortality <861> to light <5461> through <1223> the gospel <2098>,
                          See the NASB and the following translations
                          (NASB+) The lastG2078 enemyG2190 that will be abolishedG2673
                          is deathG2288.
                          (ACV) The last enemy abolished is death.
                          (ARV 2005) The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.
                          (ASV-2014) The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.
                          (ALT) [The] last enemy being abolished [is] death.
                          (ASV) The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.
                          (CLV) The last enemy is being abolished: death.
                          (EMTV) The last enemy that will be abolished is death
                          (Etheridge) and the last enemy be abolished, (which is) death.
                          (FAA) The last enemy which will be abolished is death.
                          (csb) The last enemy He abolishes is death.
                          (LEB) The last enemy to be abolished is death.
                          (NTVR) The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.
                          (Re. Murdock) And the last enemy, death, will be abolished.
                          (RV) The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.
                          (The Disciple's Bible) The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.
                          (WEB) The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
                          WEB (R)) The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
                          (WAS) As the last enemy, death is abolished;
                          and then come out of your denial
                          It transpires at his coming
                          One can believe the word of God and reject your theology
                          or one can believe your theology and reject the word of God
                          but what one cannot do is believe the word of God and believe your theology
                          give it up and believe God

                          You have ignored the word of God

                          Death the last enemy Is abolished at the return of Christ and the resurrection

                          It has not happened yet
                          Last edited by TomL; 07-11-18, 04:39 PM.
                          Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                          Comment


                          • TomL..

                            Hey I found your problem......

                            Death the last enemy Is abolished at the return of Christ and the resurrection
                            Hog wash! You got this wrong... gee I think I told you that!

                            Let me show you a verse you obviously have never read before:

                            2 Timothy 1:10 New International Version (NIV)
                            10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

                            If you read this you will find it says, " Jesus, who has destroyed death" .... do you see that there? What that means is that Jesus has destroyed death. Death was the last enemy. This was written before the real parousia and hundreds of years before your imaginary parousia/ great trib/resurrection.

                            Just to clarify DEATH was destroyed prior to 63AD, it was the death that reigned from Adam to Moses, the death that Martha never had to die..John 11:26.

                            If physical death would have been abolished at the coming of the Lord (parousia) Martha would not have physically died.

                            Since Martha isn't living on earth we all KNOW physical death is not the death in 2 Tim 1:10... so what death could it possibly be?

                            noble

                            Comment


                            • Tom replies

                              Sorry Noble but you are still in denial

                              There is a death here

                              What death is it that is abolished, destroyed

                              You are running Noble

                              It is clearly shown a death being defeated at 1Cor 15
                              You stated there was no death destroyed or abolished

                              That is contrary to the text


                              1 Corinthians 15:21-26 (ESV)
                              21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.


                              22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.


                              23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.


                              24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.


                              25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.


                              26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

                              that word translated destroyed is the same Greek word translated abolish at 2Ti 1:10

                              (NASB1995) but now <3568> has been revealed <5319> by the appearing <2015> of our Savior <4990> Christ <5547> Jesus <2424>, who abolished <

                              2673 > death <2288> and brought <5461> life <2222> and immortality <861> to light <5461> through <1223> the gospel <2098>,

                              See the NASB and the following translations

                              (NASB+) The lastG2078 enemyG2190 that will be abolishedG2673

                              is deathG2288.

                              (ACV) The last enemy abolished is death.

                              (ARV 2005) The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.

                              (ASV-2014) The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.

                              (ALT) [The] last enemy being abolished [is] death.

                              (ASV) The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.

                              (CLV) The last enemy is being abolished: death.

                              (EMTV) The last enemy that will be abolished is death

                              (Etheridge) and the last enemy be abolished, (which is) death.

                              (FAA) The last enemy which will be abolished is death.

                              (csb) The last enemy He abolishes is death.

                              (LEB) The last enemy to be abolished is death.

                              (NTVR) The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.

                              (Re. Murdock) And the last enemy, death, will be abolished.

                              (RV) The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.

                              (The Disciple's Bible) The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.

                              (WEB) The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

                              WEB (R)) The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

                              (WAS) As the last enemy, death is abolished;

                              Were you unable to see the text ?

                              Unable to understand the text ?

                              Just don't care what the bible states ?

                              What ?
                              Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                              Comment


                              • TomL;

                                You musrt be trying for some kind of record.... well sure why not explain it to you again. I 'm curious if you will ever grasp that you have indeed been given an answer.

                                Sorry Noble but you are still in denial
                                No, I accepted 2 Tim 1:10 quite a while ago.

                                There is a death here
                                There has to be a death before there can be a resurrection FROM the dead.

                                What death is it that is abolished, destroyed
                                There is no death abolished in 1 COR 15:21-26. There Paul lists the order f the resurrections , Then Paul explains Jesus has more work to do after the cross. Jesus has to do more to fully abolish death...NOT physical death but the death of eternal living which Adam lost for mankind.

                                You are running Noble
                                Something you are going to have to learn is that I never ever ever give up. I will combat your ignorant biblical junk until you get sick of repeating it.

                                It is clearly shown a death being defeated at 1Cor 15
                                Death is totally defeated in 1 COR 15 by the resurrections from the dead. Dead people are granted eternal LIFE IN HEAVEN so the sting of death is no more.. BUT you have been saying a death was destroyed and NO, NO NO the death was destroyed in 2 Tim 1:10

                                You stated there was no death destroyed or abolished
                                Correct... that death was destroyed in 2 Tim 1:10. As I told you the dead people would benefit from that death being abolished but it was abolished earlier.

                                That is contrary to the text
                                I guess you never saw the verse even yet. Here it is again:
                                2 Timothy 1:10 New International Version (NIV)
                                10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.


                                that word translated destroyed is the same Greek word translated abolish at 2Ti 1:10
                                And your point is?????


                                Were you unable to see the text ?
                                Yes I was able to see the text....
                                Unable to understand the text ?
                                Yes I understood the text.

                                Just don't care what the bible states ?
                                It is what I go by.

                                What ?
                                It doesn't say Jesus would abolish death at the coming.. it just says He had to abolish the last enemy death.
                                In case you didn't notice the resurrection in 1 COR 15 the resurrection that is mentioned just before the abolishing death thing is NOT at the coming anyway, it is at the END!!!!!!!!!!! The end of the ages when Daniel and his people would be resurrected.

                                24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power
                                25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

                                The last enemy was DEATH and Jesus abolished death here:

                                2 Timothy 1:10 New International Version (NIV)
                                10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

                                Now that these verses have been shown to you this many times,...have you seen anything in those verses yet?

                                noble

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X