Announcement

Collapse

Message to all users:

https://carm.org/forum-rules

Super Member Subscription
https://carm.org/carm-super-members-banner-ad-signup

As most of you are aware, we had a crash to forums and were down for over two days a while back. We did have to do an upgrade to the vbulletin software to fix the forums and that has created changes, VB no longer provide the hybrid or threaded forums. There are some issues/changes to the forums we are not able to fix or change. Also note the link address change, please let friends and posters know of the changed link to the forums. For now this is the only link available, https://forums.carm.org/vb5/ but if clicking on forum on carm.org homepage it will now send you to this link. (edited to add https: now working.

Again, we are working through some of the posting and viewing issues to learn how to post with the changes, you will have to check and test the different features, icons that have changed. You may also want to go to profile settings,since many of the notifications, information in profile, also to update/edit your avatar by clicking on avatar space, pull down arrow next to login for user settings.

Edit to add "How to read forums, to make it easier."
Pull down arrow next to login name upper right select profile, or user settings when page opens to profile,select link in tab that says Account. Then select/choose options, go down to Conversation Detail Options, Select Display mode Posts, NOT Activity, that selection of Posts will make the pages of discussions go to last post on last page rather than out of order that happens if you choose activity threads. Then be sure to go to bottom and select SAVE Changes in your profile options. You can then follow discussions by going through the pages, to the last page having latest responses. Then click on the other links Privacy, Notifications, to select viewing options,the forums get easier if you open all the tabs or links in your profile, user settings and select options. To join Super Member, pull down arrow next to login name, select User Settings and then click on tab/link at top that says Subscriptions.

Thank you for your patience and God Bless.

Diane S
https://carm.org/forum-rules
See more
See less

All the futurist farce items disappear when we prove the time of the GT and Parousia

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    • TomL;

      You musrt be trying for some kind of record.... well sure why not explain it to you again. I 'm curious if you will ever grasp that you have indeed been given an answer.

      Sorry Noble but you are still in denial

      Noble states


      No, I accepted 2 Tim 1:10 quite a while ago.

      Tom replies

      Too bad the verse you were asked about was

      1 Corinthians 15:20-26 (NASB)
      20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
      21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
      22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
      23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
      24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
      25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
      26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

      What is that death that is abolished at Christ's coming ?

      You can't run forever Noble

      Noble states
      There is a death here


      There has to be a death before there can be a resurrection FROM the dead.

      Tom replies

      What death is it Noble ?
      What death is it that is abolished, destroyed

      Noble states
      There is no death abolished in 1 COR 15:21-26. There Paul lists the order f the resurrections , Then Paul explains Jesus has more work to do after the cross. Jesus has to do more to fully abolish death...NOT physical death but the death of eternal living which Adam lost for mankind.

      Tom replies

      26
      The last enemy that will be abolished is death

      Sorry but you already claimed that death was abolished at 2Ti 1:10

      So what death is this ?

      What death is remedied by resurrection Noble ?

      How can any reader have any confidence in what you say when it is so obvious you are dodging.



      You are running Noble

      Noble states


      Something you are going to have to learn is that I never ever ever give up. I will combat your ignorant biblical junk until you get sick of repeating it.

      Tom replies

      Sorry but you have to learn I never get tired or sick of exposing false teaching

      and by the time I am finished your theology will be seen as the joke it is
      It is clearly shown a death being defeated at 1Cor 15

      Noble states


      Death is totally defeated in 1 COR 15 by the resurrections from the dead. Dead people are granted eternal LIFE IN HEAVEN so the sting of death is no more.. BUT you have been saying a death was destroyed and NO, NO NO the death was destroyed in 2 Tim 1:10

      Tom replies

      Sorry you were already informed the wicked though resurrected are not granted eternal life in heaven

      You need an answer that is both honest and rational

      The one you just provided was not

      1 Corinthians 15:20-26 (NASB)
      20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
      21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
      22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
      23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
      24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
      25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
      26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

      Again the text shows you are wrong and marks you as a bible ******

      What is that death ?
      You stated there was no death destroyed or abolished

      Noble states


      Correct... that death was destroyed in 2 Tim 1:10. As I told you the dead people would benefit from that death being abolished but it was abolished earlier.
      Tom notes

      That is contrary to the text


      1 Corinthians 15:20-26 (NASB)
      20
      But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
      21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
      22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
      23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
      24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
      25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
      26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

      Noble states


      I guess you never saw the verse even yet. Here it is again:
      2 Timothy 1:10 New International Version (NIV)
      10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

      Tom continued
      that word translated destroyed is the same Greek word translated abolish at 2Ti 1:10



      Noble stated
      And your point is?????

      Tom replies
      1 Corinthians 15:20-26 (NASB)
      20
      But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
      21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
      22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
      23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
      24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
      25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
      26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

      There is a passage which notes a death which is not abolished until the return of Christ asnd the resurrection


      Were you unable to see the text ?


      Yes I was able to see the text....
      Unable to understand the text ?


      Yes I understood the text.

      Just don't care what the bible states ?


      It is what I go by.

      Tom replies

      that obviously is not true


      1 Corinthians 15:20-26 (NASB)
      20
      But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
      21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
      22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
      23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
      24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
      25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
      26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

      What ?


      It doesn't say Jesus would abolish death at the coming.. it just says He had to abolish the last enemy death.
      In case you didn't notice the resurrection in 1 COR 15 the resurrection that is mentioned just before the abolishing death thing is NOT at the coming anyway, it is at the END!!!!!!!!!!! The end of the ages when Daniel and his people would be resurrected.

      Tom replies

      Read


      1 Corinthians 15:20-26 (NASB)
      20
      But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
      21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
      22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
      23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's
      at His coming,

      24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
      25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
      26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

      1 Corinthians 15:51-55 (NASB)
      51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
      52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
      53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
      54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
      55 "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?"

      Noble states

      The last enemy was DEATH and Jesus abolished death here:

      2 Timothy 1:10 New International Version (NIV)
      10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

      Now that these verses have been shown to you this many times,...have you seen anything in those verses yet?

      Tom replies

      Yes that you don't know how to interpret scripture or you just do not care to interpret it correctly

      Verse 10. But is now made manifest. The purpose to save us was long concealed in the Divine Mind, but the Saviour came that he might make it known.



      Who hath abolished death. That is, he has made it so certain that death will be abolished, that it may be spoken of as already done. It is remarkable how often, in this chapter, Paul speaks of what God intends to do as so certain, that it may be spoken of as a thing that is already done. On the meaning of the expression here, 1 Corinthians 15:54. Comp. Hebrews 2:14. The meaning is, that, through the gospel, death will cease to reign, and over those who are saved there will be no such thing as we now understand by dying.

      Barnes' Notes on the New Testament.

      abolished deathGreek, "taken away the power from death" [Tittmann]. The Greek article before "death" implies that Christ abolished death, not only in some particular instance, but in its very essence, being, and idea, as well as in all its aspects and consequences (John 11:26; Rom 8:2, 38; 1Cor 15:26, 55; Heb 2:14). The carrying out of the abolition of death into full effect is to be at the resurrection (Rev. 20:14). The death of the body meanwhile is but temporary, and is made no account of by Christ and the apostles.

      A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments.

      Death is not fully defeated until the resurrection though the ultimate cause of that defeat happened a very long time ago







    Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

    Comment


    • TomL;

      Gotta take just one thought here because it is important and I don't want you to miss it... I'll do other points.........AGAIN;;;;;;;;;;;;; later!


      It doesn't say Jesus would abolish death at the coming.. it just says He had to abolish the last enemy death.
      In case you didn't notice the resurrection in 1 COR 15 the resurrection that is mentioned just before the abolishing death thing is NOT at the coming anyway, it is at the END!!!!!!!!!!! The end of the ages when Daniel and his people would be resurrected.

      Tom replies

      Read


      1 Corinthians 15:20-26 (NASB)
      20
      But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

      23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's [/LEFT][/COLOR]
      at His coming,


      Whoops Tom you blew it big time.... As you see there, Jesus was the first fruits of the dead. THEN>>>>>> no one was resurrected until the coming. at the coming of Christ, parousia, the dead in Christ are raised...

      1 Thess 4:16
      16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

      There they are , the dead in CHrist being resurrected at the coming of the Lord, parousia. The people of the first resurrection are identified here:
      Rev 20
      And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

      . 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

      NOTICE there are NO wicked people involved here..... righteous only . These people were not JUDGED , they were CHOSEN. They were the elect form Matt 24:

      31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

      Spirits of the elect.... not flesh bodies of the elect because they were decaying in a grave somewhere...JUST THE SPIRITS of the people Jesus had chosen to be resurrected first.

      So iin 1 COR 15:23 Paul tells us of WHEN the first people are resurrected.... the righteous chosen by Jesus AT the coming..

      The next dead people to be resurrected are at:
      24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

      The the END come when the rest of the dead are resurrected...

      Daniel 12:13
      13 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

      Then Paul mentions a new thought for us....

      25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

      NOthing there about that death being destroyed at either the coming or the END. It just says Jesus will destroy or abolish death.. Jesus has that done at some point BEFORE Paul wrote 2 Tim 1:10. The death had been destroyed prior to 63 AD and the resurrections of the dead were not until 70 AD.

      So there is no abolishing death at the coming, that is the dead people coming to eternal life in heaven because Jesus HAD abolished that death.

      So you should stop in at a nice little Catholic bible study and ask what 1 COR 15:21 to 26 actually says because at the moment you have been dragged down a very dark garden path.

      Got that ...NO death abolished at the coming.... that is not the proper reference.. at or near the coming was when those who died prior to the parousia gained eternal life in heaven BECAUSE Jesus HAD abolished or destroyed the death which kept them OUT of heaven.

      THe abolishing of/destruction of 'death' was here:

      2 Timothy 1:10 New International Version (NIV)
      10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

      That is the ONLY death that ever will be destroyed.

      noble

      Comment


      • TomL;

        Gotta take just one thought here because it is important and I don't want you to miss it... I'll do other points.........AGAIN;;;;;;;;;;;;; later!


        It doesn't say Jesus would abolish death at the coming.. it just says He had to abolish the last enemy death.
        In case you didn't notice the resurrection in 1 COR 15 the resurrection that is mentioned just before the abolishing death thing is NOT at the coming anyway, it is at the END!!!!!!!!!!! The end of the ages when Daniel and his people would be resurrected.

        Tom replies

        Read


        1 Corinthians 15:20-26 (NASB)
        20
        But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

        23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's
        [/COLOR][/LEFT]
        at His coming,


        Whoops Tom you blew it big time.... As you see there, Jesus was the first fruits of the dead. THEN>>>>>> no one was resurrected until the coming. at the coming of Christ, parousia, the dead in Christ are raised...

        1 Thess 4:16
        16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

        There they are , the dead in CHrist being resurrected at the coming of the Lord, parousia. The people of the first resurrection are identified here:
        Rev 20
        And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

        . 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

        NOTICE there are NO wicked people involved here..... righteous only . These people were not JUDGED , they were CHOSEN. They were the elect form Matt 24:

        31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

        Spirits of the elect.... not flesh bodies of the elect because they were decaying in a grave somewhere...JUST THE SPIRITS of the people Jesus had chosen to be resurrected first.

        So iin 1 COR 15:23 Paul tells us of WHEN the first people are resurrected.... the righteous chosen by Jesus AT the coming..

        The next dead people to be resurrected are at:
        24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

        The the END come when the rest of the dead are resurrected...

        Daniel 12:13
        13 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

        Then Paul mentions a new thought for us....

        25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

        NOthing there about that death being destroyed at either the coming or the END. It just says Jesus will destroy or abolish death.. Jesus has that done at some point BEFORE Paul wrote 2 Tim 1:10. The death had been destroyed prior to 63 AD and the resurrections of the dead were not until 70 AD.

        So there is no abolishing death at the coming, that is the dead people coming to eternal life in heaven because Jesus HAD abolished that death.

        So you should stop in at a nice little Catholic bible study and ask what 1 COR 15:21 to 26 actually says because at the moment you have been dragged down a very dark garden path.

        Got that ...NO death abolished at the coming.... that is not the proper reference.. at or near the coming was when those who died prior to the parousia gained eternal life in heaven BECAUSE Jesus HAD abolished or destroyed the death which kept them OUT of heaven.

        THe abolishing of/destruction of 'death' was here:

        2 Timothy 1:10 New International Version (NIV)
        10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

        That is the ONLY death that ever will be destroyed.

        noble

        Tom replies

        Sorry Noble but you just ignored what was stated


        1 Corinthians 15:20-26 (NASB)
        20
        But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

        21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
        22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
        23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's


        at His coming,


        24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
        25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
        26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.


        1 Corinthians 15:51-55 (NASB)
        51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
        52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
        53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
        54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
        55 "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?"

        First we see the remedy for death is resurrection

        It transpires at his coming

        At that time comes the end when the last enemy death is abolished (v24,26,54-55)

        It is clear that at his coming death is abolished

        and it is confirmed in verse 54: then is death swallowed up in victory

        As I stated previously you are in denial

        Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

        Comment


        • TomL;
          I wrote:
          Gotta take just one thought here because it is important and I don't want you to miss it... I'll do other points.........AGAIN;;;;;;;;;;;;; later!

          But no..... we can't even get ONE thought discussed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          It doesn't say Jesus would abolish death at the coming.. it just says He had to abolish the last enemy death.
          In case you didn't notice the resurrection in 1 COR 15 the resurrection that is mentioned just before the abolishing death thing is NOT at the coming anyway, it is at the END!!!!!!!!!!! The end of the ages when Daniel and his people would be resurrected.

          Tom replies

          Read


          1 Corinthians 15:20-26 (NASB)
          How many times have I went thru these verses which you don't understand..... explained them t you .... and had you ignore the whole thing...

          I'm confident that whatever restricts your ability to comprehend is not your fault... but could you read what I have to say concerning 1 COR 15 or do you think it is just fine to limit the discussion to your thoughts only. Let me make it perfectly clear to you ....that is not going to cut it with me . I will dog you with this stuff till you die or deal with it.

          So here is my understanding of the verses you quote..... well just read any post you want, I explain these verses almost every post. I don't care if you agree but if you can't point out any errors the obvious conclusion is that there are no errors which means I am right and you are wrong...


          I'll leave this in for another run, maybe you'll see it this time.
          Whoops Tom you blew it big time.... As you see there, Jesus was the first fruits of the dead. THEN>>>>>> no one was resurrected until the coming. at the coming of Christ, parousia, the dead in Christ are raised..
          1 Thess 4:16
          16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

          There they are , the dead in CHrist being resurrected at the coming of the Lord, parousia. The people of the first resurrection are identified here:
          Rev 20
          And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

          . 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

          NOTICE there are NO wicked people involved here..... righteous only . These people were not JUDGED , they were CHOSEN. They were the elect form Matt 24:

          31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

          Spirits of the elect.... not flesh bodies of the elect because they were decaying in a grave somewhere...JUST THE SPIRITS of the people Jesus had chosen to be resurrected first.

          So iin 1 COR 15:23 Paul tells us of WHEN the first people are resurrected.... the righteous chosen by Jesus AT the coming..

          The next dead people to be resurrected are at:
          24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

          The the END come when the rest of the dead are resurrected...

          Daniel 12:13
          13 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

          Then Paul mentions a new thought for us....

          25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

          [LEFT][COLOR=#252C2F][FONT=Helvetica]NOthing there about that death being destroyed at either the coming or the END. It just says Jesus will destroy or abolish death.. Jesus has that done at some point BEFORE Paul wrote 2 Tim 1:10. The death had been destroyed prior to 63 AD and the resurrections of the dead were not until 70 AD.
          So there is no abolishing death at the coming, that is the dead people coming to eternal life in heaven because Jesus HAD abolished that death.

          Got that ...NO death abolished at the coming.... that is not the proper reference.. at or near the coming was when those who died prior to the parousia gained eternal life in heaven BECAUSE Jesus HAD abolished or destroyed the death which kept them OUT of heaven

          THe abolishing of/destruction of 'death' was here:

          2 Timothy 1:10 New International Version (NIV)
          10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

          That is the ONLY death that ever will be destroyed.

          Did you see it this time?

          Tom replies
          No there is no reply here there is a hope;less repeat of verses you don't know all that much about and a no show as far as proving your point...you have 3/4 of 4/5 of nothing.
          Sorry Noble but you just ignored what was stated
          You poor poor man. Just look in any post I have made lately and you can see what I feel those verses say,.. While you do that realize that since you have no comments on what I say , I will consider my interpretation is correct.

          First we see the remedy for death is resurrection
          That is what happened at or near the coming of the Lord.

          It transpires at his coming
          The resurrections of the dead took place at or near the coming. The abolishing or the destruction of death was prior to 63.

          At that time comes the end when the last enemy death is abolished
          Okay Tom put your keyboard where your mind is and show people WHERE the bible says the last enemy is abolished at the end...remember that a short while ago you were arguing that it was at the coming but no it is 1000 figurative years after . What you have to do is prove to me that the coming or the end was in or before 63 AD because death was abolished by or before 63 AD.

          It is clear that at his coming death is abolished
          So now it is back to coming again.... no, death was destroyed in 63 AD or before

          and it is confirmed in verse 54: then is death swallowed up in victory
          It had been demonstrated at that time., death was totally gone for all believers who would ever live as soon as that last trump sounded in 1 COR `5:51 to 53.... no, it was NOT physical death that was gone , just the death that Jesus abolished, the death that reigned from Adam until the time when Jesus abolished it.

          As I stated previously you are in denial
          I accepted 2 Tim 1:10 probably when I read it the first time....

          noble

          Comment


          • Tom replies

            Sorry you are still ignoring the text

            1 Corinthians 15:20-26 (NASB)
            20
            But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

            21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
            22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
            23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's


            at His coming,


            24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
            25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
            26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.


            1 Corinthians 15:51-55 (NASB)
            51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
            52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
            53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
            54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
            55 "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?"

            First we see the remedy for death is resurrection

            It transpires at his coming

            At that time comes the end when the last enemy death is abolished (v24,26,54-55)

            It is clear that at his coming death is abolished

            and it is confirmed in verse 54: then is death swallowed up in victory

            As I stated previously you are in denial

            This death is not abolished until his coming







            Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

            Comment


            • TomL;

              Wow, there seems to be no end! SO just for you allow me to answer these questions yet again.

              Sorry you are still ignoring the text
              How could I be ignoring the text when I have laid out the meanings of the verses as many times as I have. You have a major fail there don't you Tom.

              [FONT=Helvetica] [FONT=Helvetica]1 Corinthians 15:20-26 (NASB)
              You don't have the correct understanding of what Paul wrote so I will give you my understanding. Then you can point out any errors I have.

              Here is explanation #3

              Next I wrote out what the verses you quote mean in post #1092 but I;ll cut and paste it for you:

              1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

              Adam caused the death in question by chewing on a kiwi. Jesus resurrected all who died because if that.

              22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

              Different thing here.... just like Adam physically died, for all who die in Christ will be made alive..... the general resurrection includes more people than just h=those who die IN Christ,
              23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

              Here is where you are really screwed up.. what this verses says is that there is an order in which the dead will be resurrected. Jesus of course was first and those of Rev 20:4 and 6 are next at the coming. Those of 1 Thess 4:16.

              51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
              At the moment of the last trump or coming of the son, parousia...... some will sleep, some will not, ALL people whether they are sleeping or not will be changed.

              52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

              The change and the no sleep thing happens at the moment of the last trump.

              53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put n immortality.

              The people who are corruptible must put on incorruptibility and the mortal must put on immortality.

              You dribbled away at a couple of my comments and then the screen went dead..... the verses do NOT back up what you say they do.


              It transpires after your 2Ti 1:10
              Good thing too because it wouldn't have worked if He had abolished death AFTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

              So what death is defeated ?
              The death Jesus destroyed in 2 Tim 1:10 was the death that reigned from Adam to Moses. That death that Martha never died,, BECAUSE Martha lived her earthly life until she physically died... Martha instantly began LIVING again in her heavenly eternal life...Martha never died because Jesus had abolished that death.


              First we see the remedy for death is resurrection
              Resurrection brought the righteous dead back to eternal life in heaven. The two resurrections were the time when all of the dead were raised to either eternal life in heaven or they were raised to be condemned . after that all people who physically die are judged by Jesus as per 2 COR 5:10 after the death of the individual, Hebrews 9:27.

              It transpires at his coming
              The resurrections of the dead are at or near the coming. When Jesus abolished the death was a minimum of 7 years before that.

              At that time comes the end when the last enemy death is abolished (v24,26,54-55)
              Here you argue AT THE END...
              It is clear that at his coming death is abolished
              Here you are telling me the death was abolished by the time of the coming...!!!

              and it is confirmed in verse 54: then is death swallowed up in victory
              For absolute sure 'death' is over and done with, at least for the righteous, at the time of the last trump.

              As I stated previously you are in denial

              This death is not abolished until his coming
              IF...... IF..... IF..... you could produce one iota of biblical reference of death being abolished at some time other that 2 Tim 1:0 you may have a hint of an argument,but you don't. You just sit there and babble about some verses that do not prove your point.

              Death was abolished BEFORE the coming. Those who were physically dead would gain from that death Jesus abolished because they could now inherit their eternal life

              noble

              Comment


              • Tom replies



                try again covering all that was written
                1 Corinthians 15:20-26 (NASB)
                20
                But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

                21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
                22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
                23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's


                at His coming,



                24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
                25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
                26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.


                You will notice first

                1 He comes verse 23

                2 then the end when he has abolished all rule and power 24

                The events of verse 24 follow the coming of verse 23



                1 Corinthians 15:51-55 (NASB)
                51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
                52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
                53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
                54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
                55 "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?"

                First we see the remedy for death is resurrection

                resurrection of the death is the means by which death is abolished

                This death is the same death at verses 21 & 26

                It transpires at his coming

                At that time comes the end when the last enemy death is abolished (v24,26,54-55)

                It is clear that at his coming death is abolished

                and it is confirmed in verse 54: then is death swallowed up in victory

                the same death we are talking about in verses 21 & 26

                As I stated previously you are in denial

                This death is not abolished until his coming at the last trump and the resurrection not before then

                It's a lot more than an iota

                you will note the procession

                He comes

                Then comes the end when he has abolished all rule and power

                when does this happen ?

                When he comes

                Hello

                Earth to Noble

                He comes first

                He comes and all rule and power are abolished the last being death

                It's after he comes

                Hello

                Give it up

                Come out of your denial and believe the truth
                Last edited by TomL; 07-12-18, 09:56 PM.
                Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                Comment


                • TomL;

                  I am scared that you just do not have the ability to grasp anything... I've showed you how you do not have the correct understanding of some verses and it washes off you like spit off a doorknob.

                  try again covering all that was written
                  Well yes, let's try another approach for a post or ten and see if you can get a hold of anything.

                  Paul writes about the order of the resurrections, He tells us ,verse 23, that Jesus was the first fruits of the dead . After Jesus was raised from the dead there would be no more resurrecting until the coming when Jesus would raise the special men of Rev 20:4 and 6. That particular resurrection was at the coming in 70 AD.
                  All those people were raised to the spiritual realm of heaven in a spiritual body for a spiritual living forever IN heaven with Jesus.

                  1000 figurative years later, Rev 20:5, there is another resurrection and this one is said to be at the end of the ages. Daniel 12:13. Paul tells us about that one in verse 24.

                  No where in here does it say anything about any death being abolished. Death is reversed at the resurrections and from then on for all the righteous will live again in heaven but the actual abolishing of the death was some time prior to 63 AD.

                  Just while we pass this point it remains that you have never had anything reasonable to say about 2 Tim 1:10. Usually you just deny the bible says that and hope some idiot will believe you....

                  There was that one gem you had that death being destroyed was such a sure thing it was fine to say it had been destroyed in 63 AD..... I don't know where you got that from but if you find some sap that will buy that let me know.

                  [LEFT][COLOR=#252C2F][FONT=Helvetica]1 Corinthians 15:20-26 (NASB)

                  21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.

                  Adam caused the death we are talking about , Jesus ended it and thru Jesus came the resurrections of the dead.

                  22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

                  Note one thing here. Where it says.... " For as in Adam all die" there goes your some living forever on earth horse puckey and good riddance.
                  25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.


                  26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

                  You will notice first

                  1 He comes verse 23

                  2 then the end when he has abolished all rule and power 24

                  The events of verse 24 follow the coming of verse 23
                  Yes, but where is this abolishing death part. Let's face reality for a little bit. Tom , there is no abolishing in here at all. You have to manipulate the word of God to mesh with your phony man made religion. Let me wish you well with that but you have to give up on trying to convince me to be as stupid biblically as your teachers are..... it ain't gonna happen.

                  First we see the remedy for death is resurrection
                  It sure helped some of them didn't it? You have to remember that both resurrections took place the same day That day was a minimum of 7 years before the resurrections.. It just plain was Tom and no amount of verbal gymnastics can ever change that. AND if you don't mind could you vary your one trick pony rebuttals so I can giggle at something different once in a while...

                  resurrection of the death is the means by which death is abolished
                  Apparently not. If death had been abolished at the resurrection it would have been abolished in 70 AD not prior to 63 AD... just curious , how do you keep missing the time differences here... it shouldn't be that hard..

                  This death is the same death at verses 21 & 26
                  This death is the same death as what? Back in the day, when people physically died they slept in the dust aware of nothing. They not only physically died , they
                  could NOT be eligible for eternal life in heaven. Adam, screwed that up by disobeying God. They suffered another death which is most easily described as NOT eternally living. Jesus Christ died on the cross to rectify that, to start the ball in destroying that death to begin the process of renewing that eternal life in heaven promised by God in the beginning. The last enemy that Jesus destoyed was that death of not being able to eternallly live and He had it done by 63 AD.
                  It transpires at his coming
                  There was no parousia prior to 70 AD so that statement is impossible.

                  At that time comes the end when the last enemy death is abolished (v24,26,54-55)
                  SO you moved the abolishing of the death again... make up your mind.. Actually since you have ti fin tune it anyway you may as well let the bible guide you this time....PRIOR to 63 AD.

                  It is clear that at his coming death is abolished
                  Back to the coming..... wow, you just don't have a clue do you?

                  and it is confirmed in verse 54: then is death swallowed up in victory
                  Oh goodie two different times are confirmed in one verse.... who wouldn't gobble that up?

                  This death is not abolished until his coming at the last trump and the resurrection not before then
                  Fine as long as you can justify a last trump and a resurrection....TWO resurrections prior to 63 AD.

                  you will note the procession
                  And again I note the sequence.
                  He comes
                  He CAME...

                  Then comes the end when he has abolished all rule and power
                  Your getting ahead of yourself. He came and as He did He resurrected those of the first resurrection..THEN 1000 figurative years later there is another resurrection and that puppy is at the end of the age. Daniel is in it.

                  when does this happen ?
                  70 AD , a minimum of 7 years after He abolished death.

                  When he comes
                  When He ....came......

                  Hello
                  Hi how are ya?

                  He comes first
                  He CAME and as He did He resurrected the first group of dead people... all righteous men.

                  He comes and all rule and power are abolished the last being death
                  Pssst..... you are truly losing it.... rule and power are not enemies... He didn't abolish rule and authority He took it over....

                  Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

                  It's after he comes
                  Make sense......

                  Hello
                  Hi how are you?

                  Hey Tom Jesus abolished death prior to 63 AD , He was given all authority prior to the 60's too!

                  noble

                  Comment


                  • Tom posted

                    You will notice first

                    1 He comes verse 23

                    2 then the end when he has abolished all rule and power 24



                    The events of verse 24 follow the coming of verse 23



                    Yes, but where is this abolishing death part. Let's face reality for a little bit. Tom , there is no abolishing in here at all. You have to manipulate the word of God to mesh with your phony man made religion. Let me wish you well with that but you have to give up on trying to convince me to be as stupid biblically as your teachers are..... it ain't gonna happen.

                    Tom replies

                    Why did you did off the rest of the passage ? That smacks of a lack of forthrightness

                    1 Corinthians 15:26 (KJV)
                    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

                    there is the last enemy (opposing rule and power) that shall be abolished

                    You need to give it up and stop hiding behind editing tactics and diversion and false claims

                    Deal with the passage in context

                    1 Corinthians 15:23-26 (KJV)
                    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
                    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
                    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
                    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.



                    Verses 24-26 form a whole

                    Death is an enemy an opposing rule and power

                    It end at his coming

                    Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                    Comment


                    • TomL;

                      Do you seriously think I have not responded to your quoted verses ?

                      Verses 24-26 form a whole

                      Death is an enemy an opposing rule and power

                      It end at his coming
                      No TomL death is the last enemy Jesus has to destroy...... He did that some time time before 63 AD. All authority was given Jesus before the 60's as well.

                      It's too bad these verses are in the bible because it destroys...or abolishes.............. all reason for anyone to follow your particular doctrine. However, logical reason has never been an end all factor in the development of so-called Christian denominations.

                      We haven't had a lot of luck getting you to converse but let's keep trying.. tell the people what this verse means......this verse not verse 12 but verse 14....this verse...

                      Romans 5:14 New International Version (NIV)
                      14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

                      noble

                      Comment


                      • Tom replies

                        sorry the passage is clear

                        1 Corinthians 15:23-26 (KJV)
                        23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
                        24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
                        25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
                        26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

                        He comes then comes the end when he has
                        put down all rule and all authority and power.

                        The last opposing enemy is death

                        and Rom 5:14 does not help you

                        Romans 5:12-14 (KJV)
                        12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
                        13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
                        14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

                        It simply shows that until the giving of the law though men had not sinned in the manner of Adam by breaking a commandment of God nevertheless they still died

                        It does not state a single thing about death ending and it simply concerns the time before the law





                        o



                        Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                        Comment


                        • TomL;


                          sorry the passage is clear
                          They are fairly clear so why don't you stop in at a nice little Catholic bible study and learn what they say?

                          He comes then comes the end when he has put down all rule and all authority and power.
                          That is 1000 figurative years after the coming. SO how did those people i 1 Thess 4:16 get out of being dead if death hadn't been abolished yet?

                          The last opposing enemy is death
                          The last enemy that Jesus had to destroy was death. Jesus had that done by 63 AD.
                          and Rom 5:14 does not help you
                          It helps when you read what the verses says..... it helped me greatly because it reconciles exactly withy 2Tim 1:10 and John 11:26.


                          It simply shows that until the giving of the law though men had not sinned in the manner of Adam by breaking a commandment of God nevertheless they still died
                          Tom you are so wrong that even you should know it but I doubt you do.

                          Each verse has meaning. Naturally there are many verses where we have to gather information from other verses tt understand them but.....

                          12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

                          13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.
                          It does not state a single thing about death ending and it simply concerns the time before the law

                          I can read Tom and I also can comprehend . I now what the verses mean in context and very simply you don't .

                          Whether people had sinned or not, no matter what Moses law said or didn't say a death reigned from Adam to Moses.....take your feeble excuse and your urge to change the meaning of the Lord of God and shove the whole lot up your nose.
                          Romans 5:14 says what it says, live with it.

                          The next thing is it the death reigns after the law was brought forward....... it reigned right up until Jesus abolished that law,. Jesus had that death done away with in time for Martha to benefit from the death not being in force anymore.

                          noble




                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by noble View Post
                            TomL;




                            They are fairly clear so why don't you stop in at a nice little Catholic bible study and learn what they say?



                            That is 1000 figurative years after the coming. SO how did those people i 1 Thess 4:16 get out of being dead if death hadn't been abolished yet?



                            The last enemy that Jesus had to destroy was death. Jesus had that done by 63 AD.


                            It helps when you read what the verses says..... it helped me greatly because it reconciles exactly withy 2Tim 1:10 and John 11:26.



                            Tom you are so wrong that even you should know it but I doubt you do.

                            Each verse has meaning. Naturally there are many verses where we have to gather information from other verses tt understand them but.....

                            12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

                            13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.
                            It does not state a single thing about death ending and it simply concerns the time before the law

                            I can read Tom and I also can comprehend . I now what the verses mean in context and very simply you don't .

                            Whether people had sinned or not, no matter what Moses law said or didn't say a death reigned from Adam to Moses.....take your feeble excuse and your urge to change the meaning of the Lord of God and shove the whole lot up your nose.
                            Romans 5:14 says what it says, live with it.

                            The next thing is it the death reigns after the law was brought forward....... it reigned right up until Jesus abolished that law,. Jesus had that death done away with in time for Martha to benefit from the death not being in force anymore.

                            Tom replies

                            Sorry your reading and your comprehension are defective here

                            First you still have not come to grips with

                            1 Corinthians 15:23-26 (KJV)
                            23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
                            24 Then
                            cometh
                            the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
                            25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
                            26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

                            He comes then comes the end when he has

                            put down all rule and all authority and power
                            .

                            The last opposing enemy is death

                            second as stated

                            and Rom 5:14 does not help you


                            Romans 5:12-14 (KJV)
                            12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
                            13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
                            14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
                            It simply shows that until the giving of the law though men had not sinned in the manner of Adam by breaking a commandment of God nevertheless they still died
                            It does not state a single thing about death ending and it simply concerns the time before the law

                            that is the focus of the passage the time when there was no law. The period is from Adam to Moses in particular as the passage show until the law

                            Romans 5:13


                            For until the law sin was in the world—As death reigned from Adam to Moses, so also did sin. Now, as there was no written law from Adam to that given to Moses, the death that prevailed could not be the breach of that law; for sin, so as to be punished with temporal death, is not imputed where there is no law, which shows the penalty of sin to be death.

                            Adam Clarke's Commentary.

                            Verses 13, 14. For until the law sin was in the world—that is during all the period from Adam "until the law" of Moses was given, God continued to treat men as sinners.

                            A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments.

                            The point is clear until the law was given men could not have sin imputed unto them based on personal sin

                            Nevertheless during that period from the time of Adam to the giving of the law men died- death reigned

                            The focus is on that time period only and there is no mention of death being abolished after that time

                            You need to read the text not your theology





                            Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by TomL View Post


                              Tom replies

                              Sorry your reading and your comprehension are defective here

                              First you still have not come to grips with

                              1 Corinthians 15:23-26 (KJV)
                              23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
                              24 Then
                              cometh
                              the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
                              25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
                              26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

                              .

                              The last opposing enemy is death

                              second as stated

                              and Rom 5:14 does not help you[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]

                              Romans 5:12-14 (KJV)
                              12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
                              13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
                              14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
                              It simply shows that until the giving of the law though men had not sinned in the manner of Adam by breaking a commandment of God nevertheless they still died
                              It does not state a single thing about death ending and it simply concerns the time before the law

                              that is the focus of the passage the time when there was no law. The period is from Adam to Moses in particular as the passage show until the law

                              Romans 5:13


                              For until the law sin was in the world—As death reigned from Adam to Moses, so also did sin. Now, as there was no written law from Adam to that given to Moses, the death that prevailed could not be the breach of that law; for sin, so as to be punished with temporal death, is not imputed where there is no law, which shows the penalty of sin to be death.

                              Adam Clarke's Commentary.

                              Verses 13, 14. For until the law sin was in the world—that is during all the period from Adam "until the law" of Moses was given, God continued to treat men as sinners.

                              A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments.

                              The point is clear until the law was given men could not have sin imputed unto them based on personal sin

                              Nevertheless during that period from the time of Adam to the giving of the law men died- death reigned

                              The focus is on that time period only and there is no mention of death being abolished after that time

                              You need to read the text not your theology




                              Just read my last post to you....I responded to this in that post.

                              noble

                              Comment


                              • TomL

                                I saw you had written the following in a response to the football fan....

                                Do men still die ?
                                Is the ground still cursed Does it still bear thorns and thistles ?
                                Is there still war ? Have the swords been beat into plowshares ?
                                The lion lays down with the lamb ?
                                Is the creation still not in bondage to decay ?
                                Is the world not filled with abundant sin ?
                                Jesus is of course the king of kings and lord of lords and has power over all
                                and his enemies will be made his footstool
                                The last enemy death is defeated at his return when he raises, changes and judges all
                                Until that time there are enemies to be defeated
                                [/QUOTE]

                                I don't want to interfere in the discussion between you and cowboys fan but you are heading sideways here.......

                                Do men still die ?
                                No the believers or the righteous do not die anymore. They haven't died since the first century. Martha was one of the first to NEVER DIE.

                                Show me your answers to the rest of the questions you ask and here will be your hard part, show the biblical reference which justifies what you say.

                                noble

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X