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All the futurist farce items disappear when we prove the time of the GT and Parousia

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  • Originally posted by noble View Post

    Just read my last post to you....I responded to this in that post.

    noble
    Tom replies

    It was hogwash

    om replies

    Sorry your reading and your comprehension are defective here

    First you still have not come to grips with

    1 Corinthians 15:23-26 (KJV) 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    24 Then
    comeththe end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

    .

    The last opposing enemy is death

    second as stated

    and Rom 5:14 does not help you[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]

    Romans 5:12-14 (KJV) 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

    14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

    It simply shows that until the giving of the law though men had not sinned in the manner of Adam by breaking a commandment of God nevertheless they still died

    It does not state a single thing about death ending and it simply concerns the time before the law

    that is the focus of the passage the time when there was no law. The period is from Adam to Moses in particular as the passage show until the law


    Romans 5:13


    For until the law sin was in the world—
    As death reigned from Adam to Moses, so also did sin. Now, as there was no written law from Adam to that given to Moses, the death that prevailed could not be the breach of that law; for sin, so as to be punished with temporal death, is not imputed where there is no law, which shows the penalty of sin to be death.

    Adam Clarke's Commentary.

    Verses 13, 14. For until the law sin was in the world
    —that is during all the period from Adam "until the law" of Moses was given, God continued to treat men as sinners.

    A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments.

    The point is clear until the law was given men could not have sin imputed unto them based on personal sin

    Nevertheless during that period from the time of Adam to the giving of the law men died- death reigned

    The focus is on that time period only and there is no mention of death being abolished after that time

    You need to read the text not your theology

    Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

    Comment


    • TomL

      Nope, sorry Tom my understanding of those verses hasn't changed and you have offered NOTHING to convince me otherwise.. In fact Tom if you go back thru your own posts you will see that all you ever do is QUOTE the verses...... fat lot of good that does,, some of you people read....."became a life giving spirit" as Jesus became a physical bodied man" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      noble

      Comment


      • Originally posted by noble View Post
        TomL

        Nope, sorry Tom my understanding of those verses hasn't changed and you have offered NOTHING to convince me otherwise.. In fact Tom if you go back thru your own posts you will see that all you ever do is QUOTE the verses...... fat lot of good that does,, some of you people read....."became a life giving spirit" as Jesus became a physical bodied man" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        noble
        How many TIMES must you be CORRECTLY told that Jesus is God-Man and as God His Omnipresent Spirit has Always been life-giving FOREVER noble! Thus His Omnipresent Spirit ( as God - Psalm 139:7/John 4:24, noble ) could NOT become that life-giving spirit in 1 Cor.15:45! Thus as a Man ( with a human, body, soul, and spirit ) it had to have been His non life-giving human spirit ( Not His Flesh & Bone resurrection body of Luke 24:39 noble ) that became a life-giving spirit in that verse! After all, Jesus ( God-Man as per John 1:1+14 noble ) REMAINS the SAME ( God-Man - because He Raised or resurrected His dead Temple/Body as per John 2:19-22 noble ) FOREVER as per Hebrews 13:8! Case closed on your so called Bodiless body and nonphysical body! The readers can still see your Dilemma noble!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by noble View Post
          TomL

          Nope, sorry Tom my understanding of those verses hasn't changed and you have offered NOTHING to convince me otherwise.. In fact Tom if you go back thru your own posts you will see that all you ever do is QUOTE the verses...... fat lot of good that does,, some of you people read....."became a life giving spirit" as Jesus became a physical bodied man" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          noble
          Tom replies

          Your hogwash remains hogwash

          After life giving spirit we have

          Luke 24:39 (ESV)
          39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”

          and

          1 Corinthians 15:47-49 (ESV)
          47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
          48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
          49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

          seems we will bear the image of a man (human being)

          Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

          Comment


          • Rod.ney;

            How many TIMES must you be CORRECTLY told that Jesus is God-Man and as God His Omnipresent Spirit has Always been life-giving FOREVER noble!
            Yes Rod Jesus had always been life giving so He could not BECOME life giving...He always had been LIFE GIVING! Jesus had been a physical bodied entity so it was possible for HIm to become a spirit... you know like He WAS as He spoke in the prison..?????????????????

            Rod can I once again than you and the other guy for the unbelievable opportunity to constantly put the alternative view in front of people of the web!!! Awesome!!!!!!!!!!!


            Thus His Omnipresent Spirit ( as God - Psalm 139:7/John 4:24, noble ) could NOT become that life-giving spirit in 1 Cor.15:45!
            No , nothing about Jesus could BECOME life giving at this time because He became life giving billions of years ago and still is life giving. Jesus could however, become NON-flesh or spiritual bodied after His time on earth when He was flesh and blood.. yes Jesus could BECOME that.

            Thus as a Man ( with a human, body, soul, and spirit ) it had to have been His non life-giving human spirit ( Not His Flesh & Bone resurrection body of Luke 24:39 noble ) that became a life-giving spirit in that verse!
            There is not even a hint of any logic that can lead a thinking person to that conclusion.... Jesus became a spirit..JUST as He was in the prison, JUST as He was as He met with Paul, JUST as He was in my church last Sunday.

            After all, Jesus ( God-Man as per John 1:1+14 noble ) REMAINS the SAME ( God-Man - because He Raised or resurrected His dead Temple/Body as per John 2:19-22 noble ) FOREVER as per Hebrews 13:8! Case closed on your so called Bodiless body and nonphysical body! The readers can still see your Dilemma noble!
            When and where did Jesus raise the body He was in for John 2:19. That body was flesh and blood with no wounds? When did Jesus appear in that body as He said He would do.... or in your doctrine did Jesus lie here?

            Oh yes your ever popular Hebrews 13:8... for Rod to get this to work he has to extend the trinity to a four-ity because Jesus can't be spirit before He became physical so there was no Jesus before He became flesh...the guy that created heaven and earth was the 'Word'... you know the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit AND the Word!!!!

            I wonder if Hebrews 13:8 could actually mean...

            7 Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.

            Dies the above clear up the below for any one?
            8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

            noble

            Comment


            • TomL;


              After life giving spirit we have

              Luke 24:39 (ESV)
              39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”
              AND after we have Luke 24 we have Jesus meeting Paul and coming to my church. As well we have John 21:14 which you have no choice but to ignore... it would be a doctrine killer to admit where the three appearances were wouldn't it. Glad I don't have to avoid certain obviously literal verses from the bible


              1 Corinthians 15:47-49 (ESV)
              47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
              48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
              49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

              seems we will bear the image of a man (human being)
              There's your problem... the bible says we will bear the image of the heavenly man... here is the heavenly man...

              Colossians 1:15 [ The Supremacy of the Son of God ] The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
              1 Timothy 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

              Tell the people how Jesus entered the room where He showed the wounds.

              noble

              Comment


              • Originally posted by noble View Post
                TomL;




                AND after we have Luke 24 we have Jesus meeting Paul and coming to my church. As well we have John 21:14 which you have no choice but to ignore... it would be a doctrine killer to admit where the three appearances were wouldn't it. Glad I don't have to avoid certain obviously literal verses from the bible


                1 Corinthians 15:47-49 (ESV)
                47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
                48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
                49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.



                There's your problem... the bible says we will bear the image of the heavenly man... here is the heavenly man...

                Colossians 1:15 [ The Supremacy of the Son of God ] The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
                1 Timothy 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

                Tell the people how Jesus entered the room where He showed the wounds.

                noble
                FYI again noble, even if His resurrection body were nonphysical ( like you WRONGFULLY say it is ), it still could NOT be in thousands of churches at the EXACT same time on Sunday! Thus it has to be His Omnipresent Spirit ( as God ) and Not his human resurrection body ( as Man ) that was in all those thousands of churches last Sunday! So put a Stop to Try-ing to use that as Proof that His real resurrection body is nonphysical like His Spirit is, noble! Luke 24:39 is all the Proof that is needed to prove His real resurrection body is supernatural Flesh & Bones - " It is I, Myself " and NOT your so called nonphysical spirit, noble! Case closed on nonphysical bodies and Bodiless bodies because there is NO such thing noble! So stop forgetting that Jesus is God-Man ( Both fully God and Fully Human as a Man ) Forever as per John 1:1+14 in conjunction with Heb.13:8, noble!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by noble View Post
                  TomL;




                  AND after we have Luke 24 we have Jesus meeting Paul and coming to my church. As well we have John 21:14 which you have no choice but to ignore... it would be a doctrine killer to admit where the three appearances were wouldn't it. Glad I don't have to avoid certain obviously literal verses from the bible


                  1 Corinthians 15:47-49 (ESV)
                  47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
                  48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
                  49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.



                  There's your problem... the bible says we will bear the image of the heavenly man... here is the heavenly man...

                  Colossians 1:15 [ The Supremacy of the Son of God ] The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
                  1 Timothy 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

                  Tell the people how Jesus entered the room where He showed the wounds.

                  noble
                  Tom replies

                  And after your church we have

                  1
                  Corinthians 15:47-49 (ESV)
                  47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
                  48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
                  49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the
                  man
                  of heaven.

                  and

                  Acts 17:31 (ESV)
                  31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

                  While you have no evidence of Christ being a spirit when speaking to Paul the word of God tells us we will be judged by a man and bear the image of a man

                  Give it up Noble
                  Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Rod.ney View Post
                    FYI again noble, even if His resurrection body were nonphysical ( like you WRONGFULLY say it is ), it still could NOT be in thousands of churches at the EXACT same time on Sunday! Thus it has to be His Omnipresent Spirit ( as God ) and Not his human resurrection body ( as Man ) that was in all those thousands of churches last Sunday! So put a Stop to Try-ing to use that as Proof that His real resurrection body is nonphysical like His Spirit is, noble! Luke 24:39 is all the Proof that is needed to prove His real resurrection body is supernatural Flesh & Bones - " It is I, Myself " and NOT your so called nonphysical spirit, noble! Case closed on nonphysical bodies and Bodiless bodies because there is NO such thing noble! So stop forgetting that Jesus is God-Man ( Both fully God and Fully Human as a Man ) Forever as per John 1:1+14 in conjunction with Heb.13:8, noble!
                    Jesus is a spirit, has been for 2000 years. Jesus was also a spirit before He became flesh to live among man. Jesus is now a spirit again, a omnipresent spirit who can be all places at the same time.
                    He can be in your church the same time as He is in mine as long as you guys are talking about Jesus.....if you are talking about some physical man that is just called Jesus, it may not qualify.... I have no idea.

                    Just remember this verse:

                    Galatians 1:8 New International Version (NIV)
                    8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

                    noble

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by TomL View Post

                      Tom replies

                      And after your church we have

                      1
                      Corinthians 15:47-49 (ESV)
                      47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
                      48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
                      49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the
                      man
                      of heaven.

                      and

                      Acts 17:31 (ESV)
                      31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

                      While you have no evidence of Christ being a spirit when speaking to Paul the word of God tells us we will be judged by a man and bear the image of a man

                      Give it up Noble
                      AND the man of heaven is invisible , Col 1:15 and 1 Tim 1:17.

                      YOu don't have much going for you do you Tom?

                      noble

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by noble View Post

                        AND the man of heaven is invisible , Col 1:15 and 1 Tim 1:17.

                        YOu don't have much going for you do you Tom?

                        noble
                        Tom replies

                        Neither verse helps you as we also made in the image of God

                        I don't know about you but I am not invisible

                        men (humans) are simply not invisible Noble

                        BTW you never were able to explain how every eye could see an invisible Jesus

                        Luke 24:39 (ESV)
                        39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”

                        Doesn't sound like invisibility to me

                        Nor do these
                        THE APPEARANCES OF CHRIST
                        Persons Saw Heard Touched Other Evidence
                        Mary X X X Empty tomb
                        Mary & Women X X X Empty tomb
                        Peter X X Empty tomb, grave
                        clothes
                        (John) (Empty tomb, grave
                        clothes)
                        Two Disciples X X Ate with Him
                        Ten Apostles X X X** Death wounds
                        Eleven Apostles X X X** Death wounds
                        Seven Apostles X X Ate with Him
                        All Apostles X X Ate with Him
                        Five Hundred X X
                        Brethren
                        James X X
                        All Apostles X X Ate with Him
                        **Offered to be touched






                        Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                        Comment


                        • TomL;

                          I remember saying this as being like trying to teach calculus to a pig.....
                          Tom replies

                          Neither verse helps you as we also made in the image of God
                          Yes we are made.... in... the..... image..... of........ God!!! That would give us two possibilities....

                          1)God somehow looks like man looks or
                          2) We are spirits and don't know it!

                          I don't know about you but I am not invisible
                          Good, that means you haven't physically died yet.

                          men (humans) are simply not invisible Noble
                          Not the living ones, but how many dead guys have you seen playing harps lately?
                          at some pi
                          BTW you never were able to explain how every eye could see an invisible Jesus
                          Sure did..... At the parousia all of the people who suffered the wrath of God were the first to see Jesus.... those of the first resurrection saw Jesus as they were resurrected to eternal life in heaven. The people of the sheep and goats event all saw Jesus later that same day. Since that time every person who has physically died sees Jesus at the judgment seat.... every eye, all people see Jesus... I will too, when it's my turn.

                          Luke 24:39 (ESV)
                          39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”

                          Doesn't sound like invisibility to me
                          If I could I would start a lottery on when you grasp that Jesus was fully physical when He showed the wounds. Jesus did say He was not a spirit in Luke 24:39 you know... that was my first clue.

                          Jesus was NOT a spirit as He showed the wounds, He was as He entered the room where He showed the wounds. Jesus was NOT a spirit at the fish fry either... obviously so He could eat fish with the boys. Jesus was a spirit when He talked to Paul..............................

                          Jesus was a spirit as He disappeared on the cloud.... flesh and blood can not enter heaven, Flesh and blood nor bone can enter heaven because heaven is is only for the imperishable, that is how it works... physical on earth , spiritual or heavenly after that.

                          I have asked before and believe it or not you never answered... what does anybody need a flesh body for after death?

                          noble

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by noble View Post
                            TomL;

                            I remember saying this as being like trying to teach calculus to a pig.....


                            Yes we are made.... in... the..... image..... of........ God!!! That would give us two possibilities....

                            1)God somehow looks like man looks or
                            2) We are spirits and don't know it!



                            Good, that means you haven't physically died yet.



                            Not the living ones, but how many dead guys have you seen playing harps lately?
                            at some pi


                            Sure did..... At the parousia all of the people who suffered the wrath of God were the first to see Jesus.... those of the first resurrection saw Jesus as they were resurrected to eternal life in heaven. The people of the sheep and goats event all saw Jesus later that same day. Since that time every person who has physically died sees Jesus at the judgment seat.... every eye, all people see Jesus... I will too, when it's my turn.

                            Luke 24:39 (ESV)
                            39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”



                            If I could I would start a lottery on when you grasp that Jesus was fully physical when He showed the wounds. Jesus did say He was not a spirit in Luke 24:39 you know... that was my first clue.

                            Jesus was NOT a spirit as He showed the wounds, He was as He entered the room where He showed the wounds. Jesus was NOT a spirit at the fish fry either... obviously so He could eat fish with the boys. Jesus was a spirit when He talked to Paul..............................

                            Jesus was a spirit as He disappeared on the cloud.... flesh and blood can not enter heaven, Flesh and blood nor bone can enter heaven because heaven is is only for the imperishable, that is how it works... physical on earth , spiritual or heavenly after that.

                            I have asked before and believe it or not you never answered... what does anybody need a flesh body for after death?

                            noble
                            They need a Flesh body in order to REIGN with Jesus for those 1000 years ( Rev.20:4-6 ) when the Survivors of the still future Great Trib. go to worship Him in person as per Zech.14:16! Still no such thing as nonphysical resurrection bodies nor bodiless bodies, noble!

                            Comment


                            • TomL;

                              I remember saying this as being like trying to teach calculus to a pig.....

                              Tom replies

                              You can't master basic reading yet alone calculus

                              Tom replies

                              Neither verse helps you as we also made in the image of God


                              Noble states
                              Yes we are made.... in... the..... image..... of........ God!!! That would give us two possibilities....

                              1)God somehow looks like man looks or
                              2) We are spirits and don't know it!

                              Tom replies

                              3 You don't know what you are talking about

                              Its not referring to a physical image

                              I don't know about you but I am not invisible


                              Noble states
                              Good, that means you haven't physically died yet.

                              Tom replies

                              It means I'm not a spirit A spirit has not flesh and bones as you see me have

                              Hmm Didn't someone already say something like that




                              men (humans) are simply not invisible Noble



                              Not the living ones, but how many dead guys have you seen playing harps lately?
                              at some pi

                              Tom replies

                              Christ is not dead Noble

                              Haven't you heard He's ALIVE



                              BTW you never were able to explain how every eye could see an invisible Jesus



                              Sure did..... At the parousia all of the people who suffered the wrath of God were the first to see Jesus.... those of the first resurrection saw Jesus as they were resurrected to eternal life in heaven. The people of the sheep and goats event all saw Jesus later that same day. Since that time every person who has physically died sees Jesus at the judgment seat.... every eye, all people see Jesus... I will too, when it's my turn.

                              Tom replies

                              But it was not speaking of only the dead but every eye

                              You are still without a real explanation i

                              Luke 24:39 (ESV)
                              39
                              See
                              my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”


                              Doesn't sound like invisibility to me



                              If I could I would start a lottery on when you grasp that Jesus was fully physical when He showed the wounds. Jesus did say He was not a spirit in Luke 24:39 you know... that was my first clue.

                              Tom replies

                              You don'tb have a clue Jesus was visible and physical all the resurrection appearancesall the resurrection appearance

                              Jesus was NOT a spirit as He showed the wounds, He was as He entered the room where He showed the wounds. Jesus was NOT a spirit at the fish fry either... obviously so He could eat fish with the boys. Jesus was a spirit when He talked to Paul...........................…

                              Tom replies

                              You have no support for than beyond your imagination

                              Noble states
                              Jesus was a spirit as He disappeared on the cloud.... flesh and blood can not enter heaven, Flesh and blood nor bone can enter heaven because heaven is is only for the imperishable, that is how it works... physical on earth , spiritual or heavenly after that.

                              Tom replies

                              Sorry he was seen spirits are not visible

                              And physical realities can be spiritual just like the food and drink and men I have repeatedly showed you in the bible


                              I have asked before and believe it or not you never answered... what does anybody need a flesh body for after death?
                              Tom replies

                              Perhaps they don't want to remain naked

                              2 Corinthians 5:1-3 (ESV)
                              1 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
                              2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling,
                              3 if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked.

                              Seems the spirits of those who have died are naked

                              The building we get from God is designed to not leave us naked therefore it not be composed of spirit

                              Adding more naked spirit to naked spirit still leaves these naked
                              Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Rod.ney View Post
                                They need a Flesh body in order to REIGN with Jesus for those 1000 years ( Rev.20:4-6 ) when the Survivors of the still future Great Trib. go to worship Him in person as per Zech.14:16! Still no such thing as nonphysical resurrection bodies nor bodiless bodies, noble!
                                Well, your doctrine is guiding that one Rod. What is the flesh body for IN heaven, what purpose would flesh serve IN heaven?

                                AND ROD on this forum the great trib is over. AND the resurrections were 2000 years ago so the physical body idea is not a possibility. You have that hurdle to jump here too.

                                noble

                                Comment

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