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Still trying to nail down past/future

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  • #16
    Noble, TomL says you are a full preterist. In your own words, can you tell me what that means in regards to all of the cataclysmic events that are spelled out by God as prophesy beginning with Chapter 4 in Revelation? I'm still wondering why God gave us this prophecy in Scripture compiled in the Bible three centuries later if it wasn't supposed to be important to us today?

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Sower View Post

      PhotoReality,

      Good question!

      Perhaps, for the same reason other fulfilled chapters were placed in the Bible...To make known the history of God's dealing with man, and the way of salvation to all generations!
      Thank you. This might be a redundant question to what I asked Noble, but what's your view on how the first 19 chapters of Revelation have been fulfilled?

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by PhotoReality View Post
        Noble, TomL says you are a full preterist. In your own words, can you tell me what that means in regards to all of the cataclysmic events that are spelled out by God as prophesy beginning with Chapter 4 in Revelation? I'm still wondering why God gave us this prophecy in Scripture compiled in the Bible three centuries later if it wasn't supposed to be important to us today?
        If you look at Rev 4 you see:
        After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

        It is not until chapter 19 where we get to where Jesus watches heaven being opened. My thought here, and I have no verified this thought from the bible yet, is that John was actually taken to heaven at the time this was all happening in earth. John was told about things which had already happened until He caught up in real time where He saw heaven opening ... from then on John watched the actual events as they happened. Right up until chapter a9 where John is describing the heaven or kingdom of God coming down to man from Heaven and then the " I am coming soon" the end of the great tribulation and then the coming or parousia of Jesus. This vision was seen by John and he saw it as he described it . It was the same vision no matter when they compiled it or when he wrote it... what I am looking at is why does John have some things explained to hm and sees other things... I don't know yet, maybe never will.

        noble

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by PhotoReality View Post

          Thank you. This might be a redundant question to what I asked Noble, but what's your view on how the first 19 chapters of Revelation have been fulfilled?
          PhotoReality,

          That's a bit tricky to answer, because the book of Revelation is "not" written in chronological order, but repetitive order from different angles of the same story.

          1. Seals … Revelation 6:1-17 (Long Story)

          2. Trumpets... Revelation 8:6-11:19 (Shorter Story)

          3. Vials (bowls)…Revelation 16:12-17 (Very Short Story)

          IOW, The exact same event is described multiple times.

          Compare, Revelation 6:17; 11:18; 16:16 they are not three different Battles, and/or "Day of the Lord/Wrath," but ONE and the same "battle," and "Day of the Lord/Wrath, from different perspectives.

          That said, I believe the first 19 chapters of Revelation was fulfilled when the seventh trumpet sounded @ Revelation 11:15-19.
          Last edited by Sower; 06-20-18, 05:58 PM.
          "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ... And hath raised us up together, and made us sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." Ephesians 2:5,6

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by noble View Post

            If you look at Rev 4 you see:
            After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

            It is not until chapter 19 where we get to where Jesus watches heaven being opened. My thought here, and I have no verified this thought from the bible yet, is that John was actually taken to heaven at the time this was all happening in earth. John was told about things which had already happened until He caught up in real time where He saw heaven opening ... from then on John watched the actual events as they happened. Right up until chapter a9 where John is describing the heaven or kingdom of God coming down to man from Heaven and then the " I am coming soon" the end of the great tribulation and then the coming or parousia of Jesus. This vision was seen by John and he saw it as he described it . It was the same vision no matter when they compiled it or when he wrote it... what I am looking at is why does John have some things explained to hm and sees other things... I don't know yet, maybe never will.

            noble
            Thank you Noble for your concise explanation. If I may ask a further question:

            You said: "John was actually taken to heaven at the time this was all happening in earth. [and that] John was told about things which had already happened until He caught up in real time where He saw heaven opening ... from then on John watched the actual events as they happened."

            If, as you say, John was told about cataclysmic events that had already happened and then was watching in real time many cataclysmic events taking place on the earth then I think we're getting to the nut of my original question; what was in the past and what is yet future. Are you saying that what John saw was completed by the time he returned to earth, and there are no future events left to happen other than Rev. 20 on?

            I hate to be a pest, but could you elaborate on your view of what John was told had already happened, and then what he saw as actual events as they were taking place? What I mean is that Revelation is pretty graphic and explicit in its descriptions of these events, and they couldn't have occurred unnoticed.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Sower View Post

              PhotoReality,

              That's a bit tricky to answer, because the book of Revelation is "not" written in chronological order, but repetitive order from different angles of the same story.

              1. Seals … Revelation 6:1-17 (Long Story)

              2. Trumpets... Revelation 8:6-11:19 (Shorter Story)

              3. Vials (bowls)…Revelation 16:12-17 (Very Short Story)

              IOW, The exact same event is described multiple times.

              Compare, Revelation 6:17; 11:18; 16:16 they are not three different Battles, and/or "Day of the Lord/Wrath," but ONE and the same "battle," and "Day of the Lord/Wrath, from different perspectives.

              That said, I believe the first 19 chapters of Revelation was fulfilled when the seventh trumpet sounded @ Revelation 11:15-19.
              Sower, thank you. There's some crossover between my conversation with you and with Noble. Is it safe to assume that you and Noble are on the same page as to John's supernatural visit to heaven to view happenings on earth?

              You said: "I believe the first 19 chapters of Revelation was fulfilled when the seventh trumpet sounded @ Revelation 11:15-19."

              I'm offering basically the same question that I asked Noble just prior to this one: What did John hear described as already happened, and what was he given a view of as it was happening as far at the cataclysmic events described in the earlier chapters of Revelation?

              Thank you for the time you put into answering my questions. I appreciate it.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by PhotoReality View Post

                That's helpful. Thanks.

                OK. So what historical, real-world timeframe does the 1,000 years you referenced encompass, and which chapters in Rev. 1-19 do those years apply to?

                Thanks.
                Tom replies

                well the 1000 year period is spoken of in chapter 20 so generally that is where we are if one grants the idea the 1000 years period refers to the period between Christ resurection and his physical return
                Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by PhotoReality View Post

                  That's helpful. Thanks.

                  OK. So what historical, real-world timeframe does the 1,000 years you referenced encompass, and which chapters in Rev. 1-19 do those years apply to?

                  Thanks.
                  Naughty, naughty, PhotoReality. You are erring towards Date Setting. Seventh Day Adventists might allow this but God doesn't.

                  Mat 24:32-36
                  (32) Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is nigh:
                  (33) So likewise you, when you shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
                  (34) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
                  (35) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
                  (36) But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
                  Who among us is eternally sentient of the past, present, and future except Christ Himself.
                  Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by TomL View Post
                    well the 1000 year period is spoken of in chapter 20 so generally that is where we are if one grants the idea the 1000 years period refers to the period between Christ resurection and his physical return
                    OK. Thanks. Yes, I see. 1,000 years is mentioned several times and quite prominently in Chapter 20.

                    Out of curiosity, I'm wondering when the 1,000-year period started. If it started with Christ's resurrection, wouldn't it have to have ended around the year 1033 or thereabouts? Just a thought.

                    Also, I see that if it is where we are right now I'm wondering if Satan's chain is a little too loose.

                    Rev 20: 1-3 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by PhotoReality View Post

                      Thank you Noble for your concise explanation. If I may ask a further question:

                      You said: "John was actually taken to heaven at the time this was all happening in earth. [and that] John was told about things which had already happened until He caught up in real time where He saw heaven opening ... from then on John watched the actual events as they happened."

                      If, as you say, John was told about cataclysmic events that had already happened and then was watching in real time many cataclysmic events taking place on the earth then I think we're getting to the nut of my original question; what was in the past and what is yet future. Are you saying that what John saw was completed by the time he returned to earth, and there are no future events left to happen other than Rev. 20 on?

                      I hate to be a pest, but could you elaborate on your view of what John was told had already happened, and then what he saw as actual events as they were taking place? What I mean is that Revelation is pretty graphic and explicit in its descriptions of these events, and they couldn't have occurred unnoticed.
                      I would say there is nothing future to now, from the Book of Revelation at all. The only thing future for you and I is our appearing at the the judgement seat of Christ after our death. That has been a continuing thing since the last trump, 1 COR 15:51 to 53.

                      noble

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by noble View Post
                        I would say there is nothing future to now, from the Book of Revelation at all. The only thing future for you and I is our appearing at the the judgement seat of Christ after our death. That has been a continuing thing since the last trump, 1 COR 15:51 to 53.noble
                        Thank you, Noble. If I may, I have another question. And I ask respectfully so I can understand.

                        Can I pick one thing from Revelation and have you tell me when that occurred in the past?

                        Just off the top of my head, it looks like Rev Chapter 8 is rich with catastrophic events that wouldn't have escaped the writers of world history. For example, in just a few verses we have: one-third of all trees and all green grass were burnt up, one-third of the sea turned into blood, one-third of all life in the sea died and one-third of all ships were destroyed, and the bit about a third of the stars, sun, moon going out, etc.

                        Noble, as a full preterist you've obviously done your research as to when these things from God's word had to have occurred. Personally, I'm at a loss ... but history wasn't my main interest in high school or college.

                        Thanks for your time. I appreciate it.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by PhotoReality View Post

                          OK. Thanks. Yes, I see. 1,000 years is mentioned several times and quite prominently in Chapter 20.

                          Out of curiosity, I'm wondering when the 1,000-year period started. If it started with Christ's resurrection, wouldn't it have to have ended around the year 1033 or thereabouts? Just a thought.

                          Also, I see that if it is where we are right now I'm wondering if Satan's chain is a little too loose.
                          Tom replies
                          I do not take the 1000 year figure to be a literal 1000 years just a long period of time

                          We see in the bible the number 1000 is not always used literally

                          Ps 50:10 For every beast of the forest [is] mine, [and] the cattle upon a thousand hills.

                          We should not take the chain symbolism too literally either

                          The purpose of Satan 's binding was so the gospel could not be hidden from the nations anymore

                          We see that fulfilled in the spread of the gospel from its solely Jewish origin to encompass all peoples

                          Revelation is a book of symbols not a newspaper account

                          The symbols must be interpreted
                          Last edited by TomL; 06-21-18, 05:35 AM.
                          Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by PhotoReality View Post
                            Thank you, Noble. If I may, I have another question. And I ask respectfully so I can understand.

                            Can I pick one thing from Revelation and have you tell me when that occurred in the past?

                            Just off the top of my head, it looks like Rev Chapter 8 is rich with catastrophic events that wouldn't have escaped the writers of world history. For example, in just a few verses we have: one-third of all trees and all green grass were burnt up, one-third of the sea turned into blood, one-third of all life in the sea died and one-third of all ships were destroyed, and the bit about a third of the stars, sun, moon going out, etc.

                            Noble, as a full preterist you've obviously done your research as to when these things from God's word had to have occurred. Personally, I'm at a loss ... but history wasn't my main interest in high school or college.

                            Thanks for your time. I appreciate it.
                            I don't look for any earthly exhibition of these things. John is in heaven watching a vision and I don't expect that anyone on earth saw all of the things described in Revelation.
                            We are nowhere familiar with how things happen on heaven so I don't expect to know and understand things like all of the grass on earth burning... It obviously is not a case where all the grass of the earth is green at the same time. I highly doubt any 'mountain' will ever be tossed in the ocean however any mountain could be involved in a landslide, volcano, earthquake, what ever so it falls in the ocean and that could have been any time in history.
                            Most of Rev 8 is so symbolic it winds up telling me very little. We have to go thru the bible to the more literal books to compare what each symbol could mean... I have never done that to unravel all of Rev 8.
                            Example from another chapter... John sees Jesus leave heaven on a white horse... the people on earth that see Him coming , see Jesus on a white cloud... to add to the difficulty if understanding even that , is that the people who SEE Jesus are dead when they see Him!!!!!!!!!!!!

                            noble

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by PhotoReality View Post

                              Sower, thank you. There's some crossover between my conversation with you and with Noble. Is it safe to assume that you and Noble are on the same page as to John's supernatural visit to heaven to view happenings on earth?

                              You said: "I believe the first 19 chapters of Revelation was fulfilled when the seventh trumpet sounded @ Revelation 11:15-19."
                              Correct!

                              According to...

                              Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the SEVENTH angel, when he shall BEGIN to sound, "the mystery of God:" should be FINISHED.

                              The SEVENTH angel sounded @ Revelation 11:15, signaling the FINISH/COMPLETION of the mystery/revelation of God occurring here...

                              1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:52; Matthew 24:30-31; Revelation 11:15-19; 14:14-16; 16:15-17; 19:11; 1 Thessalonians 5:2-6; 2 Peter 3:10-18, followed by the GWTJ @ Revelation 20:11-15, Matthew 25:31-46.




                              I'm offering basically the same question that I asked Noble just prior to this one: What did John hear described as already happened, and what was he given a view of as it was happening as far at the cataclysmic events described in the earlier chapters of Revelation?

                              Thank you for the time you put into answering my questions. I appreciate it.
                              My pleasure!

                              Revelation 1:19 Write the which thou hast seen, and the things which ARE, and the things which shall be HEREAFTER.

                              The things thou hast SEEN = Revelation 1:9-11, 12-20; Revelation 20:1-3, 7-9; 12:7-10; Matthew 12:29

                              The things that ARE = Revelation 2:1-3

                              The things which shall be HEREAFTER = Revelation 4:1- 22:20


                              Please compare the Scriptures posted, and let me know where you disagree!

                              Thanks,
                              Last edited by Sower; 06-21-18, 09:13 AM.
                              "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ... And hath raised us up together, and made us sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." Ephesians 2:5,6

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Sower, et al, Thank you for your courteous replies. I actually mostly agree with your explanation of seen/are/hereafter.

                                Which is interesting, don't you think? If we camp back in on my original question, ie. where to draw the line between past and future in Revelation, we discover that we all agree the "hereafter" is everything from Chapter 4 on. So, it's fascinating that basically the premise and the battleground of this Preterist forum is disagreement over what is meant by hereafter.

                                Noble clearly enunciated that everything in the hereafter in Revelation is symbolic or allegorical. (Noble please correct me if I got it wrong. Don't let me put words in your mouth.) Others look for an explanation of how God's clear recitation in excruciating detail of catastrophic, cataclysmic events on earth could mean anything but a literal destruction and cleansing leading up to the New Heavens and the New Earth; which obviously hasn't happened yet.

                                Here is my take on this issue:

                                Once people determine where they are in biblical hermeneutics it is easy to predict where they will stand with doctrines like eschatology, soteriology, ecclesiology, etc. Are they all the way to the left side of the hermeneutic scale, interpreting all scripture as symbolic or allegorical? Or, are they all the way to the right of the hermeneutic scale, interpreting all scripture in a purely literal sense?

                                I think it's safe to say that there are very few, if none, who reside on the extreme edges of the scale, but come in somewhere slightly more or less to the right or left of the middle of the scale. What I've found is that once someone interprets a key doctrinally important verse or verses informed by their hermeneutics they then build in a series of cascading interpretations that must support their initial interpretation. Any challenges coming from someone with a different, opposite hermeneutic are automatically thought to be wrong; even though that person has just as sincerely built his doctrine from the ground up beginning with the same key verse or verses.

                                My point is that it is impossible to change a person's mind to seeing something your way unless you can persuade him to change his hermeneutics. And, I have to say that in several decades of me commenting and debating online I've never seen that happen.

                                Anyway, lecture over. Thank you all for your polite and respectful replies. It was enjoyable, and probably one of the most polite and respectful discussions that have taken place here in a long time.

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