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  • #31
    Originally posted by PhotoReality View Post
    Thank you, Noble. If I may, I have another question. And I ask respectfully so I can understand.

    Can I pick one thing from Revelation and have you tell me when that occurred in the past?

    Just off the top of my head, it looks like Rev Chapter 8 is rich with catastrophic events that wouldn't have escaped the writers of world history. For example, in just a few verses we have: one-third of all trees and all green grass were burnt up, one-third of the sea turned into blood, one-third of all life in the sea died and one-third of all ships were destroyed, and the bit about a third of the stars, sun, moon going out, etc.

    Noble, as a full preterist you've obviously done your research as to when these things from God's word had to have occurred. Personally, I'm at a loss ... but history wasn't my main interest in high school or college.

    Thanks for your time. I appreciate it.
    If I may. If you've ever read The Jewish War by Flavius Josephus, you'll notice striking parallels between his account of the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans and the Revelation. A simple example is the seven years of tribulation. The Jewish war began in 66 AD and did not end until 73 AD with the fall of Masada, i.e., seven years. At the mid point, "mid-tribulation" if you will, came the destruction of the temple itself. When the temple was destroyed it was burned by the Romans and the fire burned so hot the gold in the temple melted and seeped between the stones the temple was built from. The Romans literally took the temple apart stone by stone to retrieve the gold. "...not one stone shall be left one upon the other".

    As to your question regarding "one-third of the sea turned into blood, one-third of all life in the sea died and one-third of all ships were destroyed", according to Josephus, at the naval battle of Lake Tiberias:

    "...one might then see the lake all bloody, and full of dead bodies, for not one of them escaped. And a terrible stink, and a very sad sight there was on the following days over that country; for as for the shores, they were full of shipwrecks, and of dead bodies all swelled; and as the dead bodies were inflamed by the sun, and putrefied, they corrupted the air, insomuch that the misery was not only the object of commiseration to the Jews, but to those that hated them, and had been the authors of that misery. This was the upshot of the sea-fight. The number of the slain, including those that were killed in the city before, was six thousand and five hundred."

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    • #32
      HTacianas, that's the beauty and magnificence of God's word. Those events in AD70 surely happened, no doubt, but I believe they were one of the many, many foreshadowings that God has given us in his word to prepare for bigger events in the future. Remember, prophesy throughout Scripture often has one or more components -- a current, or near, foreshadow, and the actual future event.

      For example, not everyone realizes the incredible foreshadowing in the story of Abraham and Isaac as he is asked to sacrifice his son. Or in the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Or Moses holding up the brazen serpent. Noah and the flood comes to mind. The whole book of Ruth is a foreshadowing of the redeemer. I could go on and on.

      One-third is used prominently in the tribulation. Remember hermeneutics. Some are hard-wired with the need to interpret one-third as one-third of a locality. Others interpret it to mean one-third of all. In my view, since God's purpose in the end times is to destroy, cleanse and rebuild the earth in preparation for restoring it to the conditions at creation when Adam and Eve walked the earth, all of the events are described for the whole earth. Otherwise, why bother?

      It's like the flood during the time of Noah. There are many intelligent, born-again, Bible-believing Christians who do truly believe that the flood was local and not covering the whole earth. In other words, their hermeneutics insist that they build their theology on the premise that there wasn't a "do-over" with only eight humans because it doesn't fit with their belief in evolution. So they either allegorize the flood entirely, or relegate it to a local event. However, the whole counsel of God just doesn't make sense if all of the prophesy about the flood was about just a local flood.

      You might think those "local flood only" guys are nuts, but they are completely sincere and can build their proof from Scripture using the very same verses about the flood that we read in God's word. Only, because of where they are in hermeneutics, they come to a completely different conclusion.

      Continuing on from Rev 8 with the destruction of the earth, in Rev. 9:15 God tells us, "And the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released, so that they would kill a third of mankind. 18 A third of mankind was killed by these three plagues, by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which proceeded out of their mouths."

      I view that as being completely unambiguous. In the whole counsel of God, does Gods' plan for a complete cleansing and rebuilding of the earth make sense if only one city in a very small part of one continent is cleansed, leaving all the rest of the earth to wallow in sin while the new heavens and the new earth take up residence?

      Naturally, if one's hermeneutics leans toward allegorizing and/or spiritualizing all or most of Revelation then what I just explained doesn't make sense either.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by PhotoReality View Post
        Naturally, if one's hermeneutics leans toward allegorizing and/or spiritualizing all or most of Revelation then what I just explained doesn't make sense either.
        In the Vision John had, things were revealed to him so that those reading about them could be blessed in their reading if not in their understanding, and comparisons that are made with known circumstances indicate that at least the words of the prophecy have been heard.
        Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that reads, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
        Quote from Albert Barnes' Notes On The Bible.
        "The writer does not say that they were blessed who understood it, or that they who read or heard it would fully understand it; but it is clearly implied, that there would be so far an understanding of its meaning as to make it a felicitous condition to have been made acquainted with it. An author could not be supposed to say that one should regard his condition as a favored one who merely heard words that he could not understand, or who had placed before him magnificent symbols that had to him no meaning."

        There is a link between gnostic philosophy and amillenialism that all should be aware of if erring in that direction.
        Who among us is eternally sentient of the past, present, and future except Christ Himself.
        Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Eckyles View Post
          Quote from Albert Barnes' Notes On The Bible
          .
          "The writer does not say that they were blessed who understood it, or that they who read or heard it would fully understand it; but it is clearly implied, that there would be so far an understanding of its meaning as to make it a felicitous condition to have been made acquainted with it. An author could not be supposed to say that one should regard his condition as a favored one who merely heard words that he could not understand, or who had placed before him magnificent symbols that had to him no meaning.

          I.
          Tom states

          I'm curious. Is it your belief that any of the orthodox views of eschatology has adopted a position that holds

          Revelation consists of magnificent symbols that have no meaning or words that no one could understand ?



          Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by TomL View Post
            Tom states

            I'm curious. Is it your belief that any of the orthodox views of eschatology has adopted a position that holds

            Revelation consists of magnificent symbols that have no meaning or words that no one could understand ?

            Hi TomL, Not quite. There are denominations that have a culture intent on avoiding end times theology. While helping with logistics at a Nazarene church that had no full-time paid incumbent but a number of retired "clergy", I observed just this and was told it was a deliberate move due to the preoccupation with trying to establish timelines and interpretations etc.


            Personally, I love to read Revelation and do so almost daily. It is a great source of inspiration to me and is the denouement of the Bible's message.
            Who among us is eternally sentient of the past, present, and future except Christ Himself.
            Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Eckyles View Post


              Hi TomL, Not quite. There are denominations that have a culture intent on avoiding end times theology. While helping with logistics at a Nazarene church that had no full-time paid incumbent but a number of retired "clergy", I observed just this and was told it was a deliberate move due to the preoccupation with trying to establish timelines and interpretations etc.


              Personally, I love to read Revelation and do so almost daily. It is a great source of inspiration to me and is the denouement of the Bible's message.
              Tom replies

              Ok

              Me personally I prefer to get my eschatology from plainer didactic portions of scripture wherever possible
              Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by TomL View Post
                I'm curious. Is it your belief that any of the orthodox views of eschatology has adopted a position that holds

                Revelation consists of magnificent symbols that have no meaning or words that no one could understand ?
                My view of how to interpret Revelation is informed by John's experiences in Chapters 1 and 4.

                In Chapter 1 John is on the isle of Patmos and is given a vision of Jesus Christ, the seven golden candlesticks, etc. Then in Chapter 4 the scene changes and John finds himself facing an open door to heaven and a voice telling him to "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." From then on John is an eyewitness to events in the future as they are happening. It's not a vision, it's not God or angels describing these events to him. John is outside of the time domain, watching events as if he had a seat in the mezzanine watching the end times occurring.

                That's why I believe that the events in Revelation that are not obviously symbols, types, or other kinds of figures of speech must be taken as literal and that they absolutely, positively and irrefutably will happen.

                As to understanding ... Revelation does not exist in a vacuum. It is difficult and complicated to be sure. But any diligent student of the Bible can find references throughout God's word to help with understanding ... as long as one's hermeneutics allows for pinning down important passages with the correct interpretation to begin with. A favorite Bible teacher used to say that whenever he got stumped by a particularly difficult verse or verses it was usually because he didn't view them literally enough.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by PhotoReality View Post

                  My view of how to interpret Revelation is informed by John's experiences in Chapters 1 and 4.

                  In Chapter 1 John is on the isle of Patmos and is given a vision of Jesus Christ, the seven golden candlesticks, etc. Then in Chapter 4 the scene changes and John finds himself facing an open door to heaven and a voice telling him to "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." From then on John is an eyewitness to events in the future as they are happening. It's not a vision, it's not God or angels describing these events to him. John is outside of the time domain, watching events as if he had a seat in the mezzanine watching the end times occurring.

                  That's why I believe that the events in Revelation that are not obviously symbols, types, or other kinds of figures of speech must be taken as literal and that they absolutely, positively and irrefutably will happen.

                  As to understanding ... Revelation does not exist in a vacuum. It is difficult and complicated to be sure. But any diligent student of the Bible can find references throughout God's word to help with understanding ... as long as one's hermeneutics allows for pinning down important passages with the correct interpretation to begin with. A favorite Bible teacher used to say that whenever he got stumped by a particularly difficult verse or verses it was usually because he didn't view them literally enough.
                  Tom replies

                  That is correct revelation does not exist in a vacuum and it is difficult. Hermeneutically speaking the best approach to understanding eschatology would be to examine the simpler passages first and fit revelation into them rather than vice versa

                  That is the approach I favor

                  Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by TomL View Post

                    Tom replies

                    That is correct revelation does not exist in a vacuum and it is difficult. Hermeneutically speaking the best approach to understanding eschatology would be to examine the simpler passages first and fit revelation into them rather than vice versa

                    That is the approach I favor
                    Thank you Tom, that's interesting. Could you provide an example of how that would work?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by PhotoReality View Post
                      From then on John is an eyewitness to events in the future as they are happening. It's not a vision, it's not God or angels describing these events to him. John is outside of the time domain, watching events as if he had a seat in the mezzanine watching the end times occurring.

                      That's why I believe that the events in Revelation that are not obviously symbols, types, or other kinds of figures of speech must be taken as literal and that they absolutely, positively and irrefutably will happen.
                      In the Book of Revelation we are certainly shown things which lead to the conclusion of temporal existence, which is the purpose of the Book.

                      Revelation 1:1
                      (1) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

                      G602

                      ἀποκάλυψις
                      apokalupsis
                      ap-ok-al'-oop-sis
                      From G601; disclosure: - appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.
                      Total KJV occurrences: 18

                      A dragon with 7 heads, 10 horns, and 7 crowns; and a beast with 7 heads, 10 horns, and 10 crowns; are seen in the spirit but like all the other imagery these are metaphors which "carry the meaning across". In this case the heads refer to Control, the horns to Enforcement, the crowns to Sovereignty, 7 speaks of Perfect Completion, and 10 speaks of Extreme Fulfullment.

                      Seeing a flood of water in the spirit can refer to a flood of persecution in the natural. If we look look closely we see these things are signified.

                      Exciting stuff!!!
                      Who among us is eternally sentient of the past, present, and future except Christ Himself.
                      Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by PhotoReality View Post

                        Thank you Tom, that's interesting. Could you provide an example of how that would work?
                        Tom replies

                        sure

                        The discussion here involves what will happen when Christ returns and when his kingdom reign is setup

                        Some same there is an earthly kingdom at that time some say no and point to another time

                        The issue is resolved by comparing scriptures that speak of Christs return and letting scripture interpret scripture for us

                        Of great use in this regard is the treasury of scripture knowledge. NAS cross reference, Nave topical resources, Thompson chain references etc

                        But regarding the coming of Christ and what shall happen at that time

                        1Co 15:23-28, 1Co 15:51-55, Mt 25:31-46, 1Th 4:15-18; 2Th 1:6-10, 2Pe 3:3-13; Jude 1:14,15

                        Interesting also is a study of when Christ kingdom is setup and he sits on the throne of David

                        Acts 2:22-36
                        DAN 7:13,14

                        Added material dealing with the exaltation of Christ, his kingdom
                        MAT 28:18,19 1PET 3:22 COL 1:13 ROM 14:9 ROM 8:34 14:9 PSA 110:1 LUK 22:60 HEB 1:3 13;2:8;10:12 EPH 1:20-22 LUK 19:12 1:32 1COR 15:25,26
                        Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by TomL View Post


                          Hello Photoreality

                          Noble and Sower are full preterists
                          There may be one other
                          I'm a full Preterist as well.

                          And what I still can't figure out is why anybody thinks the Bible was written to or about anybody in the USA? There was no USA 5000-2000 years ago? How on God's green earth would even the most simple of minds on the planet think that the USA is in the Bible anywhere? Seriously? Can anybody logically answer where the USA is in the Bible?

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Dallascowboysfan View Post

                            I'm a full Preterist as well.

                            And what I still can't figure out is why anybody thinks the Bible was written to or about anybody in the USA? There was no USA 5000-2000 years ago? How on God's green earth would even the most simple of minds on the planet think that the USA is in the Bible anywhere? Seriously? Can anybody logically answer where the USA is in the Bible?
                            Tom replies

                            And you were who I had in mind when I wrote but left it for you to declare

                            Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by PhotoReality View Post

                              That makes me wonder something. Since the book we know as the Bible was compiled a couple of centuries after everyone in Christ's generation was long gone, what value did the compilers place in a prophetic book (Revelation) that made them think it had importance to readers long after all of the prophesies have already taken place? Is it just purely historical?

                              It's the very last book of the Bible, so why bother even putting it in if nobody can relate to it in any way?
                              Why is John's Revelation letter by logic any less important to believers past, present, and future, then John's gospel is? Why by logic is John's revelation any less relatable then John's gospel is to believers past, present, and future? What by logic does John's gospel contain about how believers relate to Jesus that John's Revelation does not? I'm stumped on this one?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Dallascowboysfan View Post
                                Why is John's Revelation letter by logic any less important to believers past, present, and future, then John's gospel is? Why by logic is John's revelation any less relatable then John's gospel is to believers past, present, and future? What by logic does John's gospel contain about how believers relate to Jesus that John's Revelation does not? I'm stumped on this one?
                                I can see why you are stumped.

                                The question seemed to make sense to me at the time in the context of my discussion with the others. But now I realize that even if Revelation is either mostly fulfilled prophesy, or just all allegorized or spiritualized, it would still be of historical interest as it was written by someone who had already written several other books in the canon.

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