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Still trying to nail down past/future

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  • PhotoReality
    started a topic Still trying to nail down past/future

    Still trying to nail down past/future

    I'm still trying to nail down what is past and what is yet future in the preterist view. I realize that there are few if any full preterists here, so there must be a line that can be drawn somewhere delineating where preterists believe prophecy has been realized and where it is yet to be fulfilled.

    For example, since Revelation is mostly chronological, is there a chapter where one can put a bookmark and say all pages before that are finished, and all pages after that are yet to be fulfilled?

  • TomL
    replied
    Originally posted by roby3 View Post

    In the Olivet Discourse, the prophecy that jerusalem & the temple would be destroyed came to pass in 70 AD. Also, there's war, rumor of war, persecution of Christians with decapitations, etc. still going on right now. And while Jesus didn't say Jerusalem would be rebuilt, it obviously was, and He implies it by saying it'd be trod underfoot by gentiles til all the gentiles that will be saved ARE saved. And that trampling is still going on right now. But most prets don't consider those events part of preterism.

    However, the "man of sin' has not yet come, nor the great trib, etc. and certainly JESUS hasn't yet returned. But the events Jesus prophesied that HAVE already happened, did so LITERALLY, so there's no reason to believe the rest of the prophecies won't cometa pass JUST-AS-LITERALLY!
    Originally posted by roby3 View Post
    In the Olivet Discourse, the prophecy that jerusalem & the temple would be destroyed came to pass in 70 AD. Also, there's war, rumor of war, persecution of Christians with decapitations, etc. still going on right now. And while Jesus didn't say Jerusalem would be rebuilt, it obviously was, and He implies it by saying it'd be trod underfoot by gentiles til all the gentiles that will be saved ARE saved. And that trampling is still going on right now. But most prets don't consider those events part of preterism.
    However, the "man of sin' has not yet come, nor the great trib, etc. and certainly JESUS hasn't yet returned. But the events Jesus prophesied that HAVE already happened, did so LITERALLY, so there's no reason to believe the rest of the prophecies won't cometa pass JUST-AS-LITERALLY!
    Tom notes
    Actually regarding the tribulation


    Mark 13:3-19 (NASB77)
    3
    And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew were questioning Him privately,

    4
    "Tell us, when will these things be, and what
    will be
    the sign when all these things are going to be fulfilled?"

    5
    And Jesus began to say to them,
    "See to it that no one misleads you.

    6
    "Many will come in My name, saying, '
    I am He!' and will mislead many.

    7
    "And when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be frightened; those things must take place; but that is not yet the end.

    8
    "For nation will arise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there will be earthquakes in various places; there will also be famines. These things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.
    9 "But be on your guard; for they will deliver you to the courts, and you will be flogged in the synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them.
    10 " And the gospel must first be preached to all the nations.
    11 " And when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not be anxious beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour; for it is not you who speak, but it is the Holy Spirit.
    12 "And brother will deliver brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and have them put to death.
    13 "And you will be hated by all on account of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved.
    14 "But when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
    15 " And let him who is on the housetop not go down, or enter in, to get anything out of his house;
    16 and let him who is in the field not turn back to get his cloak.
    17 "But woe to those who are with child and to those who nurse babes in those days!
    18 "But pray that it may not happen in the winter.
    19 "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created, until now, and never shall.



    Luke 21:10-24 (NASB77)
    10
    Then He continued by saying to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom,
    11 and there will be great earthquakes, and in various places plagues and famines; and there will be terrors and great signs from heaven.
    12 "But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name's sake.
    13 " It will lead to an opportunity for your testimony.
    14 " So make up your minds not to prepare beforehand to defend yourselves;
    15 for I will give you utterance and wisdom which none of your opponents will be able to resist or refute.
    16 "But you will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death,
    17 and you will be hated by all on account of My name.
    18 "Yet not a hair of your head will perish.
    19 " By your endurance you will gain your lives.
    20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is at hand.
    21 "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are in the midst of the city depart, and let not those who are in the country enter the city;
    22 because these are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
    23 "Woe to those who are with child and to those who nurse babes in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land, and wrath to this people,
    24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
    Obviously fulfilled in the 70 A.D. time frame

    but the resurrection, second physical death , the new heavens and the new earth was not

    Leave a comment:


  • roby3
    replied
    Originally posted by PhotoReality View Post
    I'm still trying to nail down what is past and what is yet future in the preterist view. I realize that there are few if any full preterists here, so there must be a line that can be drawn somewhere delineating where preterists believe prophecy has been realized and where it is yet to be fulfilled.

    For example, since Revelation is mostly chronological, is there a chapter where one can put a bookmark and say all pages before that are finished, and all pages after that are yet to be fulfilled?
    In the Olivet Discourse, the prophecy that jerusalem & the temple would be destroyed came to pass in 70 AD. Also, there's war, rumor of war, persecution of Christians with decapitations, etc. still going on right now. And while Jesus didn't say Jerusalem would be rebuilt, it obviously was, and He implies it by saying it'd be trod underfoot by gentiles til all the gentiles that will be saved ARE saved. And that trampling is still going on right now. But most prets don't consider those events part of preterism.

    However, the "man of sin' has not yet come, nor the great trib, etc. and certainly JESUS hasn't yet returned. But the events Jesus prophesied that HAVE already happened, did so LITERALLY, so there's no reason to believe the rest of the prophecies won't cometa pass JUST-AS-LITERALLY!

    Leave a comment:


  • TomL
    replied
    [QUOTE=Dallascowboysfan;n5392103]
    Originally posted by TomL View Post

    Paul's letter to the Colossians says that(past tense) they were brought to fullness having been buried and raised with Christ through faith. How can this be? These were living people, not dead people, and yet they were buried and raised from the dead? Oh, but Paul goes on to tell them they were "dead in their sins". Not dead and buried literally in their physical bodies. They were "made alive in Christ" spiritually, just as the prodigal son was "made alive" spiritually in Jesus parable.

    Colo 2:9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. 11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

    Of course Jesus body was raised "literally" from the tomb. Jesus told the 1st century unbelieving Scribes and Pharisees(in Matthew chapter 12) that wanted a sign from him that he would "physically" come out of the grave in 3 days. It was a sign, as Jesus told them for their wicked generation, who always required a sign to believe. What does this have to do with other people like you and me coming out of the ground for example? Nothing. Are the 1st century unbelieving Scribes and Pharisees taunting you and me about giving them a sign about who we are in Christ? And we respond by telling them that our dead physical bodies will come out of our graves in the future to give them a sign of who we are in Christ?

    1 Cor 15 has nothing to do with literal human bodies coming out of graves. 1 Cor 15:22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. In Christ "ALL WILL BE MADE ALIVE". What does this phrase from Paul mean "ALL WILL BE MADE ALIVE"? Paul tells us in his letters to the Colossians in chapter 2 and in Paul's letter to the Ephesians in chapter 2, what it is to be "MADE ALIVE IN CHRIST". And it has nothing to do with dead human bodies coming out of the ground. Adam's disobedience caused "spiritual" death, not physical death. Again, God told Adam that the very day he ate of the tree he would die. Did Adam die "physically" the very day he ate of the tree? No, Adam lived expelled from God's presence for hundreds of years after he ate of the tree. But on that very day, Adam did die "spiritually" when he ate of the tree, he was cast out of paradise(God's presence). Jesus came to end spiritual death, not physical death, and the Bible is very clear about this issue, as you already know. You have told me numerous times that Jesus came to end spiritual death, you know your Bible very well, and should be commended for this.

    I still have hope for you yet to come over to the full preterist side of Biblical eschatology. We full preterists could use a great Biblical mind like yourself on our side.
    Tom replies

    You are ignoring the context of what I posted


    Tom replies

    Here he refers to the spiritually dead

    That does not fit the context of 1Co 15

    Jesus did not die spiritually

    as I told you


    Context matters

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (ESV)

    1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,

    2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

    3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,

    4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,



    1 Corinthians 15:12-23 (ESV)

    12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

    13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.

    14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.

    15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.

    16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised.

    17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.

    18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

    19 If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.

    20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

    21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.

    22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

    23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.


    The passage begins unquestionably with the physical death of the Christ


    and his physical resurrection which is termed the resurrection of the dead


    This is the same resurrection we see down to verse 21 and is continued throughout the chapter


    Physical death is traced back to its cause which in verse 22 we see is Adam


    As for what Christ saved us from he saved us from our sins


    Sins that brought both physical and spiritual death;


    However in this passage life is imparted at the resurrection while


    we know men receive spiritual life when they believe not at the resurrection


    It can only be physical death here the passage concerns itself with


    and it is clearly to undo what we have in Adam

    you cannot run from one context to another and import the ideas of the other context into the one context

    you need to deal with what is above

    …...........................

    You are trying to import the context of another passage into the 1Cor 15 passage

    That is not sound exegesis

    It is physical death not spiritual death which is transpiring here

    Christ did not die spiritually He died physically and it is his physical resurrection which is spoken of

    Your Colossians passage has nothing to do with what we have here


    Leave a comment:


  • Dallascowboysfan
    replied
    [QUOTE=TomL;n5390677]
    Originally posted by Dallascowboysfan View Post
    Luke 9:59He said to another man, “Follow me.”But he replied, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”60 Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”

    What is Jesus talking about here? This man is obviously alive and talking to Jesus, yet Jesus tells him let the "DEAD" bury their own? What does Jesus mean by this? This man was obviously talking to a living. breathing, man, yet he calls the man dead? Strange, no? Not really strange at all. Jesus calls living men dead men in the scriptures several times.

    Tom replies

    Here he refers to the spiritually dead

    That does not fit the context of 1Co 15

    Jesus did not die spiritually

    as I told you

    Context matters

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (ESV)
    1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
    2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
    3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
    4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,



    1 Corinthians 15:12-23 (ESV)
    12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
    13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
    14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.
    15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.
    16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised.
    17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.
    18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
    19 If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.
    20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
    21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
    22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
    23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

    The passage begins unquestionably with the physical death of the Christ

    and his physical resurrection which is termed the resurrection of the dead

    This is the same resurrection we see down to verse 21 and is continued throughout the chapter

    Physical death is traced back to its cause which in verse 22 we see is Adam

    As for what Christ saved us from he saved us from our sins

    Sins that brought both physical and spiritual death;

    However in this passage life is imparted at the resurrection while

    we know men receive spiritual life when they believe not at the resurrection

    It can only be physical death here the passage concerns itself with

    and it is clearly to undo what we have in Adam

    you cannot run from one context to another and import the ideas of the other context into the one context

    you need to deal with what is above
    Paul's letter to the Colossians says that(past tense) they were brought to fullness having been buried and raised with Christ through faith. How can this be? These were living people, not dead people, and yet they were buried and raised from the dead? Oh, but Paul goes on to tell them they were "dead in their sins". Not dead and buried literally in their physical bodies. They were "made alive in Christ" spiritually, just as the prodigal son was "made alive" spiritually in Jesus parable.

    Colo 2:9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. 11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

    Of course Jesus body was raised "literally" from the tomb. Jesus told the 1st century unbelieving Scribes and Pharisees(in Matthew chapter 12) that wanted a sign from him that he would "physically" come out of the grave in 3 days. It was a sign, as Jesus told them for their wicked generation, who always required a sign to believe. What does this have to do with other people like you and me coming out of the ground for example? Nothing. Are the 1st century unbelieving Scribes and Pharisees taunting you and me about giving them a sign about who we are in Christ? And we respond by telling them that our dead physical bodies will come out of our graves in the future to give them a sign of who we are in Christ?

    1 Cor 15 has nothing to do with literal human bodies coming out of graves. 1 Cor 15:22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. In Christ "ALL WILL BE MADE ALIVE". What does this phrase from Paul mean "ALL WILL BE MADE ALIVE"? Paul tells us in his letters to the Colossians in chapter 2 and in Paul's letter to the Ephesians in chapter 2, what it is to be "MADE ALIVE IN CHRIST". And it has nothing to do with dead human bodies coming out of the ground. Adam's disobedience caused "spiritual" death, not physical death. Again, God told Adam that the very day he ate of the tree he would die. Did Adam die "physically" the very day he ate of the tree? No, Adam lived expelled from God's presence for hundreds of years after he ate of the tree. But on that very day, Adam did die "spiritually" when he ate of the tree, he was cast out of paradise(God's presence). Jesus came to end spiritual death, not physical death, and the Bible is very clear about this issue, as you already know. You have told me numerous times that Jesus came to end spiritual death, you know your Bible very well, and should be commended for this.

    I still have hope for you yet to come over to the full preterist side of Biblical eschatology. We full preterists could use a great Biblical mind like yourself on our side.

    Leave a comment:


  • TomL
    replied
    [QUOTE=Dallascowboysfan;n5389822]
    Luke 9:59He said to another man, “Follow me.”But he replied, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”60 Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”

    What is Jesus talking about here? This man is obviously alive and talking to Jesus, yet Jesus tells him let the "DEAD" bury their own? What does Jesus mean by this? This man was obviously talking to a living. breathing, man, yet he calls the man dead? Strange, no? Not really strange at all. Jesus calls living men dead men in the scriptures several times.

    Tom replies

    Here he refers to the spiritually dead

    That does not fit the context of 1Co 15

    Jesus did not die spiritually

    as I told you

    Context matters

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (ESV)
    1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
    2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
    3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
    4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,



    1 Corinthians 15:12-23 (ESV)
    12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
    13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
    14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.
    15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.
    16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised.
    17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.
    18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
    19 If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.
    20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
    21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
    22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
    23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

    The passage begins unquestionably with the physical death of the Christ

    and his physical resurrection which is termed the resurrection of the dead

    This is the same resurrection we see down to verse 21 and is continued throughout the chapter

    Physical death is traced back to its cause which in verse 22 we see is Adam

    As for what Christ saved us from he saved us from our sins

    Sins that brought both physical and spiritual death;

    However in this passage life is imparted at the resurrection while

    we know men receive spiritual life when they believe not at the resurrection

    It can only be physical death here the passage concerns itself with

    and it is clearly to undo what we have in Adam

    you cannot run from one context to another and import the ideas of the other context into the one context

    you need to deal with what is above

    Leave a comment:


  • Dallascowboysfan
    replied
    Originally posted by TomL View Post

    Tom replies

    sorry he caused all death

    Context matters

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (ESV)
    1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
    2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
    3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
    4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,



    1 Corinthians 15:12-23 (ESV)
    12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
    13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
    14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.
    15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.
    16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised.
    17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.
    18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
    19 If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.
    20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
    21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
    22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
    23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

    The passage begins unquestionably with the physical death of the Christ

    and his physical resurrection which is termed the resurrection of the dead

    This is the same resurrection we see down to verse 21 and is continued throughout the chapter

    Physical death is traced back to its cause which in verse 22 we see is Adam

    As for what Christ saved us from he saved us from our sins

    Sins that brought both physical and spiritual death;

    However in this passage life is imparted at the resurrection while

    we know men receive spiritual life when they believe not at the resurrection

    It can only be physical death here the passage concerns itself with

    and it is clearly to undo what we have in Adam




    Luke 9:59He said to another man, “Follow me.”But he replied, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”60 Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”

    What is Jesus talking about here? This man is obviously alive and talking to Jesus, yet Jesus tells him let the "DEAD" bury their own? What does Jesus mean by this? This man was obviously talking to a living. breathing, man, yet he calls the man dead? Strange, no? Not really strange at all. Jesus calls living men dead men in the scriptures several times.

    In Genesis 3, God separates himself from Adam and Eve by driving them out of paradise, which is the presence of God. They did not die physically, they died spiritually. God separated himself from them after they disobeyed. They lived hundreds of years after physically, but they were spiritually no longer in God's presence which is called paradise in the scriptures. As Paul puts it in in Ephesians chapter 2, they were dead in their transgressions. Not physically dead, Adam and Eve lived hundreds and hundreds of years. But dead in their transgressions they were. And as we know Christ put an end to all of this being dead in transgressions stuff for God's children thousands of years ago, as Paul stated in Ephesians chapter 2.

    Does Satan roam about the planet seeking who he may devour physically? Or who he may devour devour spiritually? Does the enemy want people to be dead physically or dead spiritually? Are we waging a physical war with the enemy of God or are we waging a daily spiritual war with the enemy of God according to scripture?

    In Jesus prodigal son parable, the father says his son was dead, and then made alive again? Why did the father say his son was dead? His son was young and alive, he never physically died in the parable? But as we know, the son was indeed dead and made alive again in the parable But the son was not physically dead and made alive again. The son was dead spiritually in the parable, and then made alive again spiritually.

    When Jesus was on the cross, and he cried out Psalm 22 to his father, "why have you forsaken me"? What was Jesus talking about? His physical death, or his separation from his Father at that moment? What is Psalm 22 talking about? Why did Jesus quote from Psalm 22 on the cross? Because of his physical death about to come? Not hardly. It was because at that moment, Jesus father was far from him, and that is what Jesus could hardly think of bearing on the cross, not his physical death. Because for the children of God to be separated from their father, is a far worse fate then physical death. Jesus came as the messiah to end death in trespasses and sin, not physical death.

    Leave a comment:


  • TomL
    replied
    Originally posted by Dallascowboysfan View Post

    Spiritual death, not physical death, is what Adam caused. Genesis 2:17, "the day you eat of the tree you will die". Did Adam physically die that day? No. He lived for over 900 years. But he did die spiritually that day he ate of the tree. Physical death is natural, it's called entropy, and God created entropy, not Adam. Spiritual death is unnatural for God's children, and Christ conquered spiritual death for God's children almost 2000 years ago now. We have all been "made alive" in Christ, as 1 Cor 15 states. Christ gave us spiritual life, not physical life. What good is it for a man to live physically for ever and ever, meanwhile he is dead spiritually? According to the Bible, the man is dead, not physically dad, he is immortal in his physical body, but spiritually he is dead, and the Bible calls living people dead if they do not have Christ. Read Ephesians chapter 2 if you want to know what a dead man is in the Bible. It's not a physically dead man, it's a living man who is "dead in his transgressions and sins". But as Ephesians chapter 2 states, "God made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved". Saved from physical death? No. Saved from spiritual death. "Dead in your transgressions and sins" is the death Christ came to save us from. And it has nothing to do with physical death.
    Tom replies

    sorry he caused all death

    Context matters

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (ESV)
    1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
    2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
    3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
    4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,



    1 Corinthians 15:12-23 (ESV)
    12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
    13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
    14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.
    15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.
    16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised.
    17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.
    18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
    19 If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.
    20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
    21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
    22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
    23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

    The passage begins unquestionably with the physical death of the Christ

    and his physical resurrection which is termed the resurrection of the dead

    This is the same resurrection we see down to verse 21 and is continued throughout the chapter

    Physical death is traced back to its cause which in verse 22 we see is Adam

    As for what Christ saved us from he saved us from our sins

    Sins that brought both physical and spiritual death;

    However in this passage life is imparted at the resurrection while

    we know men receive spiritual life when they believe not at the resurrection

    It can only be physical death here the passage concerns itself with

    and it is clearly to undo what we have in Adam





    Leave a comment:


  • Dallascowboysfan
    replied
    Originally posted by TomL View Post

    Tom replies

    Of course it did

    Romans 5:12-15 (KJV)
    12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
    13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
    15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

    1 Corinthians 15:21-22 (ESV)
    21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
    22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

    Yes really

    Genesis 3:17 (ESV)
    17 And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;

    don't you believe the bible

    and did you miss this prophesy

    Isaiah 2:4 (ESV)
    4 He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide disputes for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

    It has not happened yet

    Oh and that other thing

    Romans 8:19-22 (NET)
    19 For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God.
    20 For the creation was subjected to futility — not willingly but because of God[24] who subjected it — in hope
    21 that the creation itself will also be set free from the bondage of decay into the glorious freedom of God’s children.
    22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers together until now.

    Yeah I guess that's it
    Spiritual death, not physical death, is what Adam caused. Genesis 2:17, "the day you eat of the tree you will die". Did Adam physically die that day? No. He lived for over 900 years. But he did die spiritually that day he ate of the tree. Physical death is natural, it's called entropy, and God created entropy, not Adam. Spiritual death is unnatural for God's children, and Christ conquered spiritual death for God's children almost 2000 years ago now. We have all been "made alive" in Christ, as 1 Cor 15 states. Christ gave us spiritual life, not physical life. What good is it for a man to live physically for ever and ever, meanwhile he is dead spiritually? According to the Bible, the man is dead, not physically dad, he is immortal in his physical body, but spiritually he is dead, and the Bible calls living people dead if they do not have Christ. Read Ephesians chapter 2 if you want to know what a dead man is in the Bible. It's not a physically dead man, it's a living man who is "dead in his transgressions and sins". But as Ephesians chapter 2 states, "God made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved". Saved from physical death? No. Saved from spiritual death. "Dead in your transgressions and sins" is the death Christ came to save us from. And it has nothing to do with physical death.

    Leave a comment:


  • TomL
    replied
    Originally posted by Dallascowboysfan View Post

    Adam's sin did not cause physical death. Adam is said to have lived over 900 years in Genesis after he sinned. Adam's sin caused war? Adam's sin caused rose bushes with thorns? Adam's sin caused the second law of thermodynamics and entropy? Really?
    Tom replies

    Of course it did

    Romans 5:12-15 (KJV)
    12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
    13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
    15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

    1 Corinthians 15:21-22 (ESV)
    21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
    22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

    Yes really

    Genesis 3:17 (ESV)
    17 And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;

    don't you believe the bible

    and did you miss this prophesy

    Isaiah 2:4 (ESV)
    4 He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide disputes for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

    It has not happened yet

    Oh and that other thing

    Romans 8:19-22 (NET)
    19 For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God.
    20 For the creation was subjected to futility — not willingly but because of God[24] who subjected it — in hope
    21 that the creation itself will also be set free from the bondage of decay into the glorious freedom of God’s children.
    22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers together until now.

    Yeah I guess that's it

    Last edited by TomL; 07-16-18, 05:38 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dallascowboysfan
    replied
    Originally posted by TomL View Post

    Tom replies

    Sorry but
    Death, the curse upon the earth, decay (corruption), sin, war are no metaphors

    To leave men and creation is that condition is a failure to overcome the effects of Adam's sin


    …........................................
    Tom replies
    Do men still die ?
    Is the ground still cursed Does it still bear thorns and thistles ?
    Is there still war ? Have the swords been beat into plowshares ?
    The lion lays down with the lamb ?
    Is the creation still not in bondage to decay ?
    Is the world not filled with abundant sin ?
    Jesus is of course the king of kings and lord of lords and has power over all
    and his enemies will be made his footstool
    The last enemy death is defeated at his return when he raises, changes and judges all
    Until that time there are enemies to be defeated
    Adam's sin did not cause physical death. Adam is said to have lived over 900 years in Genesis after he sinned. Adam's sin caused war? Adam's sin caused rose bushes with thorns? Adam's sin caused the second law of thermodynamics and entropy? Really?

    Leave a comment:


  • PhotoReality
    replied
    Originally posted by Dallascowboysfan View Post
    Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must "SHORTLY" come to pass; and he sent and "SIGNIFIED"(BE A SIGN OF) it by his angel unto his servant John:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for 'THE TIME IS AT HAND".

    The book of Revelation tells us what it is in the first verse. It's the revelation of Jesus Christ.That is what it means to me as a believer. You know what the adverb "SHORTLY" means, correct? And what the adverb "AT HAND" means, correct? They certainly don't mean thousands of years later. Thousands of years later would be an antonym of "SHORTLY" and "AT HAND". "SHORTLY" means "SHORTLY" every time. The definition of "SHORTLY" doesn't suddenly change it's meaning in the book of Revelation.

    Revelation is no more important to a believer then any other book in the Bible. All of the books in the Bible are all of equal importance to a believing child of God. Again, as scripture clearly states, God's children cannot sin, and are not charged with sin. Whoever is born of God sinneth not(1 John 3:9 & 5:18). Who is taking away words from Revelation on this forum? I haven't seen anybody removing words from Revelation? Is somebody rewriting a new version of Revelation and the rest of the Scriptures in their own new Bible publication? Are you thinking that somebody here at the CARM Forums is rewriting the Bible, and are going to be removed from the book of life? I don't know any believers who would dare rewrite the Bible in their own words myself.
    Cowboy, for the sake of argument, I won't dispute your all-caps claims here. Let's assume that all of Revelation has happened -- presumably in the first century.

    I'm sure you've noticed that my style since being on this forum is one that is less wanting to get bogged down in endless Scriptural swordplay resulting in hundreds of repetitive, circular posts, and more of wanting to understand the mind of other commenters here like yourself.

    What I'm looking for from you, and I mean it sincerely, is for you to help me to understand how all of the events of Revelation could have transpired yet there is no physical or spiritual evidence of it in the past almost 2,000 years. If God's purpose in Revelation was to cleanse the earth and restore it to Eden conditions and create a New Jerusalem then why don't we see evidence of that happening?

    Granted, you believe that Revelation is metaphorical, allegorical or spiritual ... but even those things have to have a basis in reality for the figures of speech to represent.

    I'm hoping you'll take the time to write out a basic outline of Revelation with the idea in mind of showing what each of the major events represent, if not historically then metaphorically, etc.

    For example, what is represented in history by these events in Revelation?

    The four horsemen.
    All of the highly detailed, excruciatingly vivid descriptions of the wraths committed against the earth and its inhabitants by God with the seals, trumpets and bowls.
    The antichrist, the false prophet.
    The two witnesses.
    The destruction of Babylon.
    The drying up of the Euphrates River.
    Jesus returning bodily to the earth on the mount of Olives.
    The physical reign of Christ on the physical Throne of David for 1,000 years.
    The raising of the final army against Jesus and the Battle of Armegeddon.
    The casting of Satan into the Lake of Fire where the antichrist and the false prophet have already been for 1,000 years.
    The destruction of the old earth and the creation of the new heaven and earth along with the new City of Jerusalem.

    I realize your answer to all of these is they were allegorical or spiritual but, like I said, they have to be figures of speech representing something or God wouldn't have considered it important to bring John up to heaven to witness all these things happening, and to have them in a book that he declared a blessing on those who read them, and a curse on those who alter them.

    To be able to basically hand-wave away all of the literal interpretations of Revelation one should have to be able as an alternative to give an integrated, thematic exposition of a metaphorical interpretation. Just saying, "It's metaphorical," doesn't help someone like me understand why.

    You know what I mean?

    Leave a comment:


  • TomL
    replied
    Originally posted by Dallascowboysfan View Post

    Half of the stuff you listed are metaphors and not literal, and you know this, you are smarter then me, and I know what a metaphor is, Is the enemy spiritual death or physical death? Nothing wrong with physical death at all, only spiritual death. And Jesus has already dealt with spiritual death. Nothing wrong with rose bushes either, Jesus did not come to get rid of sticker bushes. And believers are not charged with sin, so there is no sin left for God to deal with. Jesus did not come to deal with wars fought with swords and spears, but wars fought in the spiritual realm. And Jesus won the spiritual war already as you know. Jesus has already defeated all of his enemies, and he is king of Kings and Lord of Lords, and Jesus sits at the right hand of his father in all power and all glory forever and ever amen.
    Tom replies

    Sorry but
    Death, the curse upon the earth, decay (corruption), sin, war are no metaphors

    To leave men and creation is that condition is a failure to overcome the effects of Adam's sin


    …........................................
    Tom replies
    Do men still die ?
    Is the ground still cursed Does it still bear thorns and thistles ?
    Is there still war ? Have the swords been beat into plowshares ?
    The lion lays down with the lamb ?
    Is the creation still not in bondage to decay ?
    Is the world not filled with abundant sin ?
    Jesus is of course the king of kings and lord of lords and has power over all
    and his enemies will be made his footstool
    The last enemy death is defeated at his return when he raises, changes and judges all
    Until that time there are enemies to be defeated

    Leave a comment:


  • Dallascowboysfan
    replied
    Originally posted by PhotoReality View Post

    Thank you. I've never heard it explained that way before.

    If you don't mind, and when you have time, can you briefly describe in your own words what you think Revelation is all about?

    There are two key verses ... one at the beginning, and one at the end ... that guide me in understanding Revelation:

    Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
    Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

    As far as I know, Revelation is the only book that has its message sandwiched between a blessing for understanding and a curse for deleting from it, so I'm thinking that God places a huge amount of importance in what he is saying there.

    So, how does Revelation fit into your theology?
    Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must "SHORTLY" come to pass; and he sent and "SIGNIFIED"(BE A SIGN OF) it by his angel unto his servant John:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for 'THE TIME IS AT HAND".

    The book of Revelation tells us what it is in the first verse. It's the revelation of Jesus Christ.That is what it means to me as a believer. You know what the adverb "SHORTLY" means, correct? And what the adverb "AT HAND" means, correct? They certainly don't mean thousands of years later. Thousands of years later would be an antonym of "SHORTLY" and "AT HAND". "SHORTLY" means "SHORTLY" every time. The definition of "SHORTLY" doesn't suddenly change it's meaning in the book of Revelation.


    Revelation is no more important to a believer then any other book in the Bible. All of the books in the Bible are all of equal importance to a believing child of God. Again, as scripture clearly states, God's children cannot sin, and are not charged with sin. Whoever is born of God sinneth not(1 John 3:9 & 5:18). Who is taking away words from Revelation on this forum? I haven't seen anybody removing words from Revelation? Is somebody rewriting a new version of Revelation and the rest of the Scriptures in their own new Bible publication? Are you thinking that somebody here at the CARM Forums is rewriting the Bible, and are going to be removed from the book of life? I don't know any believers who would dare rewrite the Bible in their own words myself.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dallascowboysfan
    replied
    Originally posted by TomL View Post

    Tom replies

    Do men still die ?

    Is the ground still cursed Does it still bear thorns and thistles ?

    Is there still war ? Have the swords been beat into plowshares ?

    The lion lays down with the lamb ?

    Is the creation still not in bondage to decay ?

    Is the world not filled with abundant sin ?

    Jesus is of course the king of kings and lord of lords and has power over all

    and his enemies will be made his footstool

    The last enemy death is defeated at his return when he raises, changes and judges all

    Until that time there are enemies to be defeated

    Half of the stuff you listed are metaphors and not literal, and you know this, you are smarter then me, and I know what a metaphor is, Is the enemy spiritual death or physical death? Nothing wrong with physical death at all, only spiritual death. And Jesus has already dealt with spiritual death. Nothing wrong with rose bushes either, Jesus did not come to get rid of sticker bushes. And believers are not charged with sin, so there is no sin left for God to deal with. Jesus did not come to deal with wars fought with swords and spears, but wars fought in the spiritual realm. And Jesus won the spiritual war already as you know. Jesus has already defeated all of his enemies, and he is king of Kings and Lord of Lords, and Jesus sits at the right hand of his father in all power and all glory forever and ever amen.

    Leave a comment:

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