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Why two different messages?

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  • Why two different messages?

    In Luke 21 Jesus is in the temple when some disciples ask him concerning the destruction of the temple, " ... what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?"

    In Matthew 24 Jesus is at a different time with some of the disciples on the Mount of Olives when they asked concerning the destruction of the temple, "... when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

    Not only are the questions subtly different, but Jesus' answer is markedly different in the two renderings.

    When these are considered by most to be the same event recorded by two different apostles, why are the questions and the answers so remarkably different?

  • #2
    Originally posted by PhotoReality View Post
    In Luke 21 Jesus is in the temple when some disciples ask him concerning the destruction of the temple, " ... what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?"

    In Matthew 24 Jesus is at a different time with some of the disciples on the Mount of Olives when they asked concerning the destruction of the temple, "... when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

    Not only are the questions subtly different, but Jesus' answer is markedly different in the two renderings.

    When these are considered by most to be the same event recorded by two different apostles, why are the questions and the answers so remarkably different?
    Tom asks

    Please extoll the differences you see

    Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by TomL View Post
      Tom asks
      Please extoll the differences you see
      Tom, I started the topic because I was curious what others might have discovered. I don't wish to "poison the well" so to speak by answering my own question right off the bat.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by PhotoReality View Post

        Tom, I started the topic because I was curious what others might have discovered. I don't wish to "poison the well" so to speak by answering my own question right off the bat.
        Tom replies

        Could it not be in reference to

        When these are considered by most to be the same event recorded by two different apostles, why are the questions and the answers so remarkably different?
        many might not agree with the second half of your statement
        Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by TomL View Post
          Tom replies
          Could it not be in reference to
          many might not agree with the second half of your statement
          Good point. Here's a new question:

          Some Bible scholars propose that there are some significant differences between Matthew's and Luke's accounts of the Olivet Discourse. I'm curious to know if the folks here agree or disagree with these scholars, and why.

          Comment


          • #6
            PhotoReality;

            In Luke 21 Jesus is in the temple when some disciples ask him concerning the destruction of the temple, " ... what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?"

            In Matthew 24 Jesus is at a different time with some of the disciples on the Mount of Olives when they asked concerning the destruction of the temple, "... when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

            Not only are the questions subtly different, but Jesus' answer is markedly different in the two renderings.
            I'll jut deal with the question part. It was as the group were leaving the temple that Jesus told them it would be destroyed. Mark and Matthew mention that the disciples ask Jesus WHEN as they are outside of town on the Mount of Olives. Luke never says WHERE they are as the disciples ask Jesus WHEN, at least in the NASB.

            In the KJV is is easy to think the question was asked as they were at the temple but it , in fact, does not say that.

            When these are considered by most to be the same event recorded by two different apostles, why are the questions and the answers so remarkably different?
            You are discussing if the answer is the same by all so I'll leave that part out, but I say the question was exactly the same because I see the end and the coming as two of the THINGS that have to take place at the time of the coming.

            noble

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by PhotoReality View Post

              Good point. Here's a new question:

              Some Bible scholars propose that there are some significant differences between Matthew's and Luke's accounts of the Olivet Discourse. I'm curious to know if the folks here agree or disagree with these scholars, and why.
              Tom replies

              I would say Jesus reply as recorded by the gospel writers is congruent whether read in Matthew 24, Luke 21 or Mark 13
              Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

              Comment


              • #8
                Thank you Noble and Tom.

                Here are some of my thoughts for consideration:

                The short version is that these were two completely different briefings answering two different questions in two different places, at two different times to two vastly different assemblages of people. That's the easy answer that I believe is easily proven in Scripture.

                The harder answer is why? What is the significance of God giving us two different messages, about the seemingly same topic?

                The Questions

                The question asked in the Luke account is, Luke 21:7 "Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?" That's all.

                The Matthew account has this more-detailed question being asked, Matthew 24:3 "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" The difference might appear to be splitting hairs at first glance, but in view of what will be presented here I offer that there is a significant difference between the two questions.

                Where

                In Luke 20:1 Jesus is in the temple, "And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders, ..."

                Throughout Luke's Ch 20 and until the end of Ch 21 Jesus remains in the temple during his entire discourse.

                In Matthew's record, however, prior to Ch 24 Jesus is in the temple, but Matthew 24:1 says he left, "And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: ..."

                On the way out, some disciples gestured toward the temple buildings, which led to the iconic phrase uttered by Jesus in Matthew 24:2, "... verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

                The remainder of Ch 24, known as the Olivet Discourse, takes place on the Mt. of Olives, Matthew 24:3, "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives,..."

                Incidentally, in Mark 13:1,3 the author records the same location for Jesus' discourse, "And as he went out of the temple ..." "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives ..."

                Clearly there are two locations in view for Jesus' answers to questions posed by the audiences, meaning of course that they were two different discourses.

                When

                Luke 20:1 says Jesus was teaching on "... one of those days, ..." We don't know which day, but we can surmise from Luke 19:47, "And he taught daily in the temple," that he would show up regularly to preach, kept a schedule, so to speak, as in Luke 21:37 "And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives."

                There is no recorded indication that the Matthew and Luke accounts had to have taken place at the same time and/or on the same day.

                To Whom

                Returning to Luke 20:1, we see that Jesus " ... taught the people in the temple, ..." which comprised people, priests, scribes, elders, Sadducees, and some disciples -- in other words, a large, diverse audience.

                Then just before Jesus launches into his famous discourse in Ch 21, Luke 20:45 records, "Then in the audience of all the people he said unto his disciples, ..."

                Strong's shows that "in the audience" (Gr. akouo) suggests "within the hearing of all the people." Since there is no record by Luke of anybody leaving the temple while Jesus was speaking we can be sure that Jesus had a broad, diverse audience for his "Lukian" discourse.

                By contrast in Matthew's account, however, only Jesus' disciples followed him out of the temple and up to the Mt. of Olives, Matthew 24:3 "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, ..."

                Gone was the entire audience consisting of the people, priests, scribes, etc. -- there were only Jesus' disciples present.

                We are indebted to Mark, however, for narrowing down that limited audience even further, Mark 13:3 "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, ..."

                We might recognize the first three as Jesus' "inner circle" who were exclusively privy to several private briefings and witnessings with Jesus during important events of his ministry. Andrew, being Peter's brother, possibly managed to just tag along.

                Since it makes sense that these disciples were likely also present during the Lukian discourse in the temple, it only makes further sense that as they sat on the Mt. of Olives Jesus had in mind to give his inner circle a private enhanced answer to their question, "... when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

                Anybody in corporate management, or in a command position in the military, would recognize what was going on here. A general briefing, minus a lot of the details, would be given to the employees as a whole or to the assembled military company -- IOW, Luke's account. After which, middle managers or company-level military command personal would retire to the CEO's or commander's office for a more detailed briefing -- IOW, Matthew's account.

                All this begs the question as to what did these two different briefings by Jesus consist of that is significant, important for one group, but not for the other. I believe that every word, even every jot and tittle in God's word, is by design. God says what he means and means what he says. So, I believe it is important for us to be like the Bereans in Acts 17:11 and examine the reason why.

                Unfortunately, it's not for me to do today. I'm exhausted. It's hot, and I'm "a bear of little brain" whose poor brain is maxed out for the day.

                Thank you for reading this, and I do entertain comments. If you are comfortable with my thesis so far I'm interested in your theories moving forward as to what is going on here.

                And, obviously, if you aren't comfortable with what I've presented so far I'm open minded as to where my exposition fails.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by PhotoReality View Post
                  Thank you Noble and Tom.

                  Here are some of my thoughts for consideration:

                  The short version is that these were two completely different briefings answering two different questions in two different places, at two different times to two vastly different assemblages of people. That's the easy answer that I believe is easily proven in Scripture.

                  The harder answer is why? What is the significance of God giving us two different messages, about the seemingly same topic?

                  The Questions

                  The question asked in the Luke account is, Luke 21:7 "Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?" That's all.

                  The Matthew account has this more-detailed question being asked, Matthew 24:3 "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" The difference might appear to be splitting hairs at first glance, but in view of what will be presented here I offer that there is a significant difference between the two questions.

                  Where

                  In Luke 20:1 Jesus is in the temple, "And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders, ..."

                  Throughout Luke's Ch 20 and until the end of Ch 21 Jesus remains in the temple during his entire discourse.

                  In Matthew's record, however, prior to Ch 24 Jesus is in the temple, but Matthew 24:1 says he left, "And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: ..."

                  On the way out, some disciples gestured toward the temple buildings, which led to the iconic phrase uttered by Jesus in Matthew 24:2, "... verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

                  The remainder of Ch 24, known as the Olivet Discourse, takes place on the Mt. of Olives, Matthew 24:3, "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives,..."

                  Incidentally, in Mark 13:1,3 the author records the same location for Jesus' discourse, "And as he went out of the temple ..." "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives ..."

                  Clearly there are two locations in view for Jesus' answers to questions posed by the audiences, meaning of course that they were two different discourses.

                  When

                  Luke 20:1 says Jesus was teaching on "... one of those days, ..." We don't know which day, but we can surmise from Luke 19:47, "And he taught daily in the temple," that he would show up regularly to preach, kept a schedule, so to speak, as in Luke 21:37 "And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives."

                  There is no recorded indication that the Matthew and Luke accounts had to have taken place at the same time and/or on the same day.

                  To Whom

                  Returning to Luke 20:1, we see that Jesus " ... taught the people in the temple, ..." which comprised people, priests, scribes, elders, Sadducees, and some disciples -- in other words, a large, diverse audience.

                  Then just before Jesus launches into his famous discourse in Ch 21, Luke 20:45 records, "Then in the audience of all the people he said unto his disciples, ..."

                  Strong's shows that "in the audience" (Gr. akouo) suggests "within the hearing of all the people." Since there is no record by Luke of anybody leaving the temple while Jesus was speaking we can be sure that Jesus had a broad, diverse audience for his "Lukian" discourse.

                  By contrast in Matthew's account, however, only Jesus' disciples followed him out of the temple and up to the Mt. of Olives, Matthew 24:3 "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, ..."

                  Gone was the entire audience consisting of the people, priests, scribes, etc. -- there were only Jesus' disciples present.

                  We are indebted to Mark, however, for narrowing down that limited audience even further, Mark 13:3 "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, ..."

                  We might recognize the first three as Jesus' "inner circle" who were exclusively privy to several private briefings and witnessings with Jesus during important events of his ministry. Andrew, being Peter's brother, possibly managed to just tag along.

                  Since it makes sense that these disciples were likely also present during the Lukian discourse in the temple, it only makes further sense that as they sat on the Mt. of Olives Jesus had in mind to give his inner circle a private enhanced answer to their question, "... when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

                  Anybody in corporate management, or in a command position in the military, would recognize what was going on here. A general briefing, minus a lot of the details, would be given to the employees as a whole or to the assembled military company -- IOW, Luke's account. After which, middle managers or company-level military command personal would retire to the CEO's or commander's office for a more detailed briefing -- IOW, Matthew's account.

                  All this begs the question as to what did these two different briefings by Jesus consist of that is significant, important for one group, but not for the other. I believe that every word, even every jot and tittle in God's word, is by design. God says what he means and means what he says. So, I believe it is important for us to be like the Bereans in Acts 17:11 and examine the reason why.

                  Unfortunately, it's not for me to do today. I'm exhausted. It's hot, and I'm "a bear of little brain" whose poor brain is maxed out for the day.

                  Thank you for reading this, and I do entertain comments. If you are comfortable with my thesis so far I'm interested in your theories moving forward as to what is going on here.

                  And, obviously, if you aren't comfortable with what I've presented so far I'm open minded as to where my exposition fails.
                  Tom notes

                  You seem to be concentrating your analysis on the when and the who of it

                  Your statement however was

                  Not only are the questions subtly different, but Jesus' answer is markedly different in the two renderings.

                  When these are considered by most to be the same event recorded by two different apostles, why are the questions and the answers so remarkably different?

                  but Jesus' answer is markedly different in the two renderings.

                  It is the

                  but Jesus' answer is markedly different in the two renderings.

                  part I was commenting on

                  I do not believe Jesus answer was markedly different
                  Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by TomL View Post
                    Tom notes

                    You seem to be concentrating your analysis on the when and the who of it

                    Your statement however was

                    Not only are the questions subtly different, but Jesus' answer is markedly different in the two renderings.

                    When these are considered by most to be the same event recorded by two different apostles, why are the questions and the answers so remarkably different?

                    but Jesus' answer is markedly different in the two renderings.

                    It is the

                    but Jesus' answer is markedly different in the two renderings.

                    part I was commenting on

                    I do not believe Jesus answer was markedly different
                    Hello Tom. Yes, you are right about me leaving that part out.

                    At the end of my long analysis I said that, "All this begs the question as to what did these two different briefings by Jesus consist of that is significant, important for one group, but not for the other."

                    And I also said I wasn't going to be able to finish it today (meaning yesterday now) because I was tired. I appreciate your interest, and I assure you there is definitely more to come. But I might be too busy today to get to it. In the meantime, it would be interesting if anybody else wanted to offer their exposition on what the difference is in the messages that Jesus provides in the two discourses.

                    Tom, do you agree with my analysis so far in principle? The when, where and who? I think you are saying that even if the time, location and audience are different the message is still the same. Right?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by PhotoReality View Post

                      Hello Tom. Yes, you are right about me leaving that part out.

                      At the end of my long analysis I said that, "All this begs the question as to what did these two different briefings by Jesus consist of that is significant, important for one group, but not for the other."

                      And I also said I wasn't going to be able to finish it today (meaning yesterday now) because I was tired. I appreciate your interest, and I assure you there is definitely more to come. But I might be too busy today to get to it. In the meantime, it would be interesting if anybody else wanted to offer their exposition on what the difference is in the messages that Jesus provides in the two discourses.

                      Tom, do you agree with my analysis so far in principle? The when, where and who? I think you are saying that even if the time, location and audience are different the message is still the same. Right?
                      Tom replies

                      Ok no problem

                      Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                      Comment

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