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How are the unjust raised ?

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  • How are the unjust raised ?

    Does the full preterist have any answer to this ?

    Acts 24:15 (KJV)
    15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

    Now full preterists sometimes define resurrection as being raised up to heaven - The unjust do not experience this rather their destiny is noted here

    Matthew 25:41 (KJV)
    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    And sometimes they refer to resurrection as a raising up to spiritual life but only the righteous transition to spiritual life from spiritual death when they believe

    John 5:24 (KJV)
    24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    So what is left to define the resurrection of the unjust ?

    It seems to me Full preterist have a dilemma here

    and a true answer to the question has the potential to take a wrecking ball to their entire eschatology

    Thus I have seen at least one full preterist stumble when trying to come up with a definition of resurrection which would encompass the unjust
    Last edited by TomL; 07-29-18, 08:17 PM.
    Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

  • #2
    Originally posted by TomL View Post
    Does the full preterist have any answer to this ?

    Acts 24:15 (KJV)
    15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

    Now full preterists sometimes define resurrection as being raised up to heaven - The unjust do not experience this rather their destiny is noted here

    Matthew 25:41 (KJV)
    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    And sometimes they refer to resurrection as a raising up to spiritual life but only the righteous transition to spiritual life from spiritual death when they believe

    John 5:24 (KJV)
    24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    So what is left to define the resurrection of the unjust ?

    It seems to me Full preterist have a dilemma here

    and a true answer to the question has the potential to take a wrecking ball to their entire eschatology

    Thus I have seen at least one full preterist stumble when trying to come up with a definition of resurrection which would encompass the unjust
    Could you explain the dilemma? I'm not quite getting it.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by reformedguy View Post

      Could you explain the dilemma? I'm not quite getting it.
      Tom replies

      Are you a full preterist ?

      Full Preterist deny the resurrection of the body

      They need a definition for resurrection that would allow for a resurrection of the unjust

      It cannot be stated the unjust receive spiritual life as that is promised to believers only nor can it be stated

      they are raised up to heaven. They don't go there.
      Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by TomL View Post

        Tom replies

        Are you a full preterist ?

        Full Preterist deny the resurrection of the body

        They need a definition for resurrection that would allow for a resurrection of the unjust

        It cannot be stated the unjust receive spiritual life as that is promised to believers only nor can it be stated

        they are raised up to heaven. They don't go there.
        I think they deny the resurrection body is physical in nature given flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God. As far as being a full Preterist, I have not decided yet. I am partial for sure. Still studying the various views.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by reformedguy View Post

          I think they deny the resurrection body is physical in nature given flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God. As far as being a full Preterist, I have not decided yet. I am partial for sure. Still studying the various views.
          Tom replies

          I think they try to use that as justification. The fact is a physical resurrection destroys their eschatology

          BTW the resurrected Christ was flesh and bones do you think he could be denied access to heaven based on that ?

          Luke 24:39 (KJV)
          39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

          Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by TomL View Post

            Tom replies

            I think they try to use that as justification. The fact is a physical resurrection destroys their eschatology

            BTW the resurrected Christ was flesh and bones do you think he could be denied access to heaven based on that ?

            Luke 24:39 (KJV)
            39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


            Flesh and bones that went through walls and disappeared at will? Clearly there was something different about it. I would also point out that His flesh and blood was sinless of course and ours is tainted by sin. Christ also said His kingdom was not of this world. It is a spiritual kingdom


            Last edited by reformedguy; 08-02-18, 07:03 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by reformedguy View Post



              Flesh and bones that went through walls and disappeared at will? Clearly there was something different about it. I would also point out that His flesh and blood was sinless of course and ours is tainted by sin. Christ also said His kingdom was not of this world. It is a spiritual kingdom

              Tom replies

              Still one cannot rationalize away what scripture plainly states

              Luke 24:39 (KJV)
              39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

              He was not a spirit and had flesh and bones



              Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by TomL View Post

                Tom replies

                Still one cannot rationalize away what scripture plainly states

                Luke 24:39 (KJV)
                39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

                He was not a spirit and had flesh and bones


                I'm not rationalizing anything. Just pointing out a few things as to why I have not made up my mind. Literal flesh and blood do not simply walk through stone walls or appear and reappear at will. Another point to ponder is the verse you cited is before the ascension. As I said before flesh and blood do not inherit the kingdom of God. There are so many questions. For instance, with your resurrection body at what age do you appear? When your 30, 40, 10? Aging is because of sin. I might be over thinking this a little but that's how I am. What I believe must be logical and consistent

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by reformedguy View Post

                  I'm not rationalizing anything. Just pointing out a few things as to why I have not made up my mind. Literal flesh and blood do not simply walk through stone walls or appear and reappear at will. Another point to ponder is the verse you cited is before the ascension. As I said before flesh and blood do not inherit the kingdom of God. There are so many questions. For instance, with your resurrection body at what age do you appear? When your 30, 40, 10? Aging is because of sin. I might be over thinking this a little but that's how I am. What I believe must be logical and consistent
                  Tom notes

                  I did not mention you. I specifically stated one. The point being we have a definite statement as to Christ's resurrection nature. It would not be proper interpretation to speculate that he was not resurrected physically because of how one interprets what may have been a supernatural event

                  Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by TomL View Post

                    Tom notes

                    I did not mention you. I specifically stated one. The point being we have a definite statement as to Christ's resurrection nature. It would not be proper interpretation to speculate that he was not resurrected physically because of how one interprets what may have been a supernatural event
                    I have a definitive statement also. The Bible says we are sewn a natural body and raised a spiritual body. It's not as cut and dried as you seem to think it is. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God but a spiritual can apparently.

                    Just the same physical bodies do not walk through walls and disappear at will but a spiritual body might.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by reformedguy View Post

                      I have a definitive statement also. The Bible says we are sewn a natural body and raised a spiritual body. It's not as cut and dried as you seem to think it is. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God but a spiritual can apparently.

                      Just the same physical bodies do not walk through walls and disappear at will but a spiritual body might.
                      Tom replies

                      Now you just need to determine what a spiritual body is

                      A) From scripture

                      It is not a body composed of Spirit


                      1 Corinthians 2:15 (KJV)
                      15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

                      1 Corinthians 3:1 (KJV)
                      1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

                      1 Corinthians 10:3 (KJV)
                      3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

                      1 Corinthians 10:4 (KJV)
                      4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


                      1 Corinthians 14:37 (KJV)
                      37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.


                      As none of these men were mere Spirit

                      and spiritual meat and drink refer to the physical manna and water the Israelite partook of in the desert

                      B) from lexical sources


                      Complete Word Study Dictionary, The
                      πνευματικός


                      πνευματικός [See Stg: <G4152>]

                      pneumatikós; fem. pneumatikḗ, neut. pneumatikón, adj. from pneśma <G4151>, spirit. Spiritual.

                      (I) Pertaining to the nature of spirits. "A spiritual body" (1 Cor. 15:44) means a body dominated by the Spirit, in contrast to a natural or soulish body (sṓma psuchikón [sṓma <G4983>, body; psuchikón <G5591>, pertaining to soul]) which obeys one's natural instincts or soul. In Eph. 6:12, tį pneumatikį tḗs ponērķas (<G4189>, iniquity) means the evil spirits.

                      (II) Pertaining to or proceeding from the Holy Spirit, tó pneśma tó hįgion (see pneśma 3, D).

                      (A) Of persons who are spiritual, enlightened by the Holy Spirit, enjoying the influences, graces, gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 2:13, 15; 3:1; 14:37; Gal. 6:1).

                      (B) Of things spiritual, communicated or imparted by the Holy Spirit: Rom. 15:27; 1 Cor. 2:13, meaning those things pertaining to the Spirit (tį toś Pneśmatos [as in 2:14]); 1 Cor. 9:11; 12:1; 14:1, the things pertaining to the Spirit; Eph. 1:3; 5:19; Col. 1:9; 3:16, "spiritual songs," meaning those composed in the Spirit on spiritual and instructive subjects. In 1186Rom. 7:14 "the law is spiritual" means it is according to the mind and will of the Spirit. In Rom. 1:11 chįrisma pneumatikón (chįrisma <G5486>, gift), "a spiritual gift," means a gift relating to the mind or spirit of Christians as enlightened and quickened by the Holy Spirit (cf. in 1:12, and see pneśma, III, D, 2, e). Also spoken of things in a higher and spiritual sense, not literal or corporeal, including also a reference to the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 10:3, 4, they ate spiritual food and drank spiritual drink; 1 Pet. 2:5 "a spiritual house").

                      Deriv.: pneumatikṓs <G4153>, spiritually.

                      Ant.: phusikós <G5446>, natural, pertaining to or governed by natural instincts; psuchikós <G5591>, soulish, pertaining to or governed by the soul, the lower part of the immaterial natural in man. Both of these words, phusikós and psuchikós, stand in contrast to pneumatikós, spiritual (1 Cor. 2:14; 15:44, 46; James 3:15); sarkikós <G4559>, pertaining to the flesh, carnal; sįrkinos <G4560>, made of flesh.
                      Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by TomL View Post

                        Tom replies

                        Now you just need to determine what a spiritual body is

                        A) From scripture

                        It is not a body composed of Spirit


                        1 Corinthians 2:15 (KJV)
                        15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

                        1 Corinthians 3:1 (KJV)
                        1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

                        1 Corinthians 10:3 (KJV)
                        3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

                        1 Corinthians 10:4 (KJV)
                        4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


                        1 Corinthians 14:37 (KJV)
                        37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.


                        As none of these men were mere Spirit

                        and spiritual meat and drink refer to the physical manna and water the Israelite partook of in the desert
                        B) from lexical sources



                        Complete Word Study Dictionary, The
                        πνευματικός


                        πνευματικός [See Stg: <G4152>]

                        pneumatikós; fem. pneumatikḗ, neut. pneumatikón, adj. from pneśma <G4151>, spirit. Spiritual.

                        (I) Pertaining to the nature of spirits. "A spiritual body" (1 Cor. 15:44) means a body dominated by the Spirit, in contrast to a natural or soulish body (sṓma psuchikón [sṓma <G4983>, body; psuchikón <G5591>, pertaining to soul]) which obeys one's natural instincts or soul. In Eph. 6:12, tį pneumatikį tḗs ponērķas (<G4189>, iniquity) means the evil spirits.

                        (II) Pertaining to or proceeding from the Holy Spirit, tó pneśma tó hįgion (see pneśma 3, D).

                        (A) Of persons who are spiritual, enlightened by the Holy Spirit, enjoying the influences, graces, gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 2:13, 15; 3:1; 14:37; Gal. 6:1).

                        (B) Of things spiritual, communicated or imparted by the Holy Spirit: Rom. 15:27; 1 Cor. 2:13, meaning those things pertaining to the Spirit (tį toś Pneśmatos [as in 2:14]); 1 Cor. 9:11; 12:1; 14:1, the things pertaining to the Spirit; Eph. 1:3; 5:19; Col. 1:9; 3:16, "spiritual songs," meaning those composed in the Spirit on spiritual and instructive subjects. In 1186Rom. 7:14 "the law is spiritual" means it is according to the mind and will of the Spirit. In Rom. 1:11 chįrisma pneumatikón (chįrisma <G5486>, gift), "a spiritual gift," means a gift relating to the mind or spirit of Christians as enlightened and quickened by the Holy Spirit (cf. in 1:12, and see pneśma, III, D, 2, e). Also spoken of things in a higher and spiritual sense, not literal or corporeal, including also a reference to the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 10:3, 4, they ate spiritual food and drank spiritual drink; 1 Pet. 2:5 "a spiritual house").

                        Deriv.: pneumatikṓs <G4153>, spiritually.

                        Ant.: phusikós <G5446>, natural, pertaining to or governed by natural instincts; psuchikós <G5591>, soulish, pertaining to or governed by the soul, the lower part of the immaterial natural in man. Both of these words, phusikós and psuchikós, stand in contrast to pneumatikós, spiritual (1 Cor. 2:14; 15:44, 46; James 3:15); sarkikós <G4559>, pertaining to the flesh, carnal; sįrkinos <G4560>, made of flesh.
                        All this is nice Tom but extra biblical. The Bible does not define exactly what is meat by a spiritual body. "A body dominated by the Spirit" would seem to indicate then that our spiritual body is different than our physical body then. They are not exactly the same thing which is what I'm saying. 1 Corinthians 15 deals specifically with the resurrection body which I believe points this out. We are raised a spiritual body that can enter heaven of which flesh and dlood cannot inherit.
                        Last edited by reformedguy; 08-06-18, 11:56 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by reformedguy View Post

                          All this is nice Tom but extra biblical. The Bible does not define exactly what is meat by a spiritual body. "A body dominated by the Spirit" would seem to indicate then that our spiritual body is different than our physical body then. They are not exactly the same thing which is what I'm saying. 1 Corinthians 15 deals specifically with the resurrection body which I believe points this out. We are raised a spiritual body that can enter heaven of which flesh and dlood cannot inherit.
                          Tom replies

                          Er the scripture verses I quoted were not extra biblical

                          Please read again

                          and perhaps think about why you would want to interpret the bible contrary to Christ's express statement that he was not a spirit and the bible promise that we shall be like him
                          Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by TomL View Post

                            Tom replies

                            Er the scripture verses I quoted were not extra biblical

                            Please read again

                            and perhaps think about why you would want to interpret the bible contrary to Christ's express statement that he was not a spirit and the bible promise that we shall be like him
                            Lets try to stick to scripture that actually deals with the resurrection in context such as 1 Corinthians 15. That's what im thinking. Scripture ping pong does no one any good. So shall we take a look at it or not?

                            Your last sentence I will ignore as it is sort of childish to accuse me of such a thing because I don't toe your company line

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by reformedguy View Post

                              Lets try to stick to scripture that actually deals with the resurrection in context such as 1 Corinthians 15. That's what im thinking. Scripture ping pong does no one any good. So shall we take a look at it or not?

                              Your last sentence I will ignore as it is sort of childish to accuse me of such a thing because I don't toe your company line
                              Tom replies

                              I quoted scripture showing the use of spiritual

                              They showed spiritual need not mean composed of spirit

                              That leaves us with Jesus statement he was not a spirit

                              Luke 24:39 (KJV)
                              39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

                              and the bibles promise that we shall be like him

                              Philippians 3:21 (KJV)
                              21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

                              1 John 3:2 (KJV)
                              2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


                              its not about my company line but scripture
                              Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                              Comment

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