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Law, sin, and Death

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  • Law, sin, and Death

    Romans 5:12-21 (KJV)
    12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
    13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
    15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
    16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
    17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
    18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
    19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
    20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
    21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

    The bible is clear death is a result of sin and sin exists only when law exist;

    Sin being a violation of law

    Full Preterist however claim God's natural plan for man was death

    How could this be ?

    Had Adam been born with sin ?

    Had he violated a law before any law existed

    Was he born a sinner under condemnation of death for a sin he had yet committed ?


    Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

  • #2
    Originally posted by TomL View Post
    Romans 5:12-21 (KJV)
    12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
    13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
    15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
    16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
    17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
    18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
    19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
    20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
    21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

    The bible is clear death is a result of sin and sin exists only when law exist;

    Sin being a violation of law

    Full Preterist however claim God's natural plan for man was death

    How could this be ?

    Had Adam been born with sin ?

    Had he violated a law before any law existed

    Was he born a sinner under condemnation of death for a sin he had yet committed ?

    Full preterist would have you to believe

    Romans 5:12-21 (KJV)
    12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    that physical death is not in view

    They would have you to believe physical death is natural and was always God's plain for man

    This overlooks the fact atonement covering for sin always requires physical death - blood atonement

    When they first sinned Adam and Eve sought to cover themselves with a fig leaf

    Genesis 3:7 (KJV)
    7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

    This was an attempt to cover their sin.

    It was insufficient

    Genesis 3:11-21 (KJV)
    11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
    12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
    13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
    14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
    15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
    16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
    17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
    18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
    19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
    20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
    21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

    God had to make coats of animal sin to cover them. An animal life would be forfeited to cover their sin

    Here we have the introduction of substitutionary atonement

    The next development in this concept is seen here


    Exodus 29:36 (KJV)
    36 And thou shalt offer every day a bullock for a sin offering for atonement: and thou shalt cleanse the altar, when thou hast made an atonement for it, and thou shalt anoint it, to sanctify it.

    Leviticus 4:20 (KJV)
    20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.

    Hebrews 9:21-22 (KJV)
    21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
    22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

    An animal must be sacrificed to make atonement for sin

    Death was required

    Ultimately animal sacrifice was insufficient and had to ne continually made until the perfect sacrifice was provided

    The sacrifice of the son of God

    The Lord Jesus Christ

    Hebrews 10:1-13 (KJV)
    1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
    2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
    3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
    4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
    5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
    6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
    7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
    8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
    9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
    10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
    11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
    12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
    13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.



    Hebrews 9:12-15 (KJV)
    12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
    13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
    14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
    15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.



    Romans 5:6-11 (KJV)
    6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
    7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
    8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
    10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
    11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

    If physical death is not a consequence of sin why did Christ have to die to pay our sin death
    Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by TomL View Post
      Romans 5:12-21 (KJV)
      12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
      13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
      14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
      15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
      16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
      17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
      18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
      19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
      20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
      21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

      The bible is clear death is a result of sin and sin exists only when law exist;

      Sin being a violation of law

      Full Preterist however claim God's natural plan for man was death

      How could this be ?

      Had Adam been born with sin ?

      Had he violated a law before any law existed

      Was he born a sinner under condemnation of death for a sin he had yet committed ?

      It's called God isomniscient.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by reformedguy View Post

        It's called God isomniscient.
        Tom replies

        The important question is

        so is physical death the result of sin ?
        Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by TomL View Post

          Tom replies

          The important question is

          so is physical death the result of sin ?
          Some say yes, some say no.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by reformedguy View Post

            Some say yes, some say no.
            Tom replies

            No copouts

            What do you say ?
            Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by TomL View Post

              Tom replies

              No copouts

              What do you say ?
              Well we know that the day he ate the apple God said he would die. Obviously he did not die physically so it would seem he suffered spiritual separation from God or died spiritually. I would fall on the side of physical death was also involved in the curse but I couldn't prove it using the Genesis account.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by reformedguy View Post

                Well we know that the day he ate the apple God said he would die. Obviously he did not die physically so it would seem he suffered spiritual separation from God or died spiritually. I would fall on the side of physical death was also involved in the curse but I couldn't prove it using the Genesis account.
                What about exclusion from the garden and the tree of life ?

                What is 1Co 15 5 referring to ?
                Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by TomL View Post

                  What about exclusion from the garden and the tree of life ?

                  What is 1Co 15 5 referring to ?
                  What about it?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by reformedguy View Post

                    What about it?
                    Tom replies

                    Are you seriously trying to indicate you did not know I was asking you about the relationship between physical death and sin in 1Corinthians 15 ?

                    Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by TomL View Post

                      Tom replies

                      Are you seriously trying to indicate you did not know I was asking you about the relationship between physical death and sin in 1Corinthians 15 ?
                      I'm not trying to indicate anything. I said what I believe about the Genesis account. That's what we're discussing right? Physical death and the fall? You have a tough time staying focused don't you.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by reformedguy View Post

                        I'm not trying to indicate anything. I said what I believe about the Genesis account. That's what we're discussing right? Physical death and the fall? You have a tough time staying focused don't you.
                        Tom replies

                        I also asked you about 1Co 15

                        and its association of sin and physical death

                        It was pretty apparent the focus is on the relationship between the two not just the book of Genesis.

                        Do you care to address it ?



                        Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by TomL View Post

                          Tom replies

                          I also asked you about 1Co 15

                          and its association of sin and physical death

                          It was pretty apparent the focus is on the relationship between the two not just the book of Genesis.

                          Do you care to address it ?


                          The question was about Adam and Eve and physical death. You want to discuss that? Fine. I'm not chasing your rabbit trails. Try to stay focused if you can. Concentrate

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by reformedguy View Post

                            The question was about Adam and Eve and physical death. You want to discuss that? Fine. I'm not chasing your rabbit trails. Try to stay focused if you can. Concentrate
                            Tom replies

                            1Co 15 discusses Adam's sin and death.

                            Why are you afraid to discuss it ?

                            Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by TomL View Post

                              Tom replies

                              1Co 15 discusses Adam's sin and death.

                              Why are you afraid to discuss it ?
                              We were discussing the Genesis account specifically which I am happy to do if you could only stay focused. When were done with Genesis then we can discuss 1 Corinthians 15. Deal?

                              Comment

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