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The Pret Conundrum

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  • The Pret Conundrum

    When it comes to defending and proving his doctrine, Prets is trapped between stone and solid. There is a huge gap between the preparatory doctrine (all and part) and reality / history. Prets tried to bridge this gap using an excuse such as “Jesus’s words in the Bible are figurative / symbolic. However, the ARTISTIC incarnation in many prophecies of Jesus made this justification false.

    The problem with pretas is that, as Christians, they know better than they lie.

  • #2
    We could dismiss preterism as just some silly doctrine dreamed up by some juveniles, except it harms Christianity in three ways:

    1.) Full preterism cheapens and denies the future return of Jesus by falsely telling us it's already occurred.

    2.) Partial preterism tries to make a liar out of Jesus in Matt. 24:29-30 by saying the great trib has already happened, where in those Scriptures, Jesus says He'll return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the trib. So, if it's already occurred, then Jesus is long-overdue!

    3.) It casts doubt upon God's word by trying to reduce a good portion of it to "figurative/symbolic" status. ONLY GOD can do that! It's HIS word! And, where symbolism is used, such as in Rev. 17, God's angel gives its explanation of what literal things it symbolizes. However, NONE of Jesus' Olivet Discourse is symbolic.

    And Josephus saw/heard chariots in the sky above Jerusalem? Funny, none of the Romans with him saw/heard them, nor did any of the hundreds of thousands of Jews in & around Jerusalem! Josephus was writing to entertain Vespasian, not to record history.

    Simple TRUTH is, the eschatological events are yet to occur, and preterism is false!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by roby3 View Post
      We could dismiss preterism as just some silly doctrine dreamed up by some juveniles, except it harms Christianity in three ways:

      1.) Full preterism cheapens and denies the future return of Jesus by falsely telling us it's already occurred.

      2.) Partial preterism tries to make a liar out of Jesus in Matt. 24:29-30 by saying the great trib has already happened, where in those Scriptures, Jesus says He'll return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the trib. So, if it's already occurred, then Jesus is long-overdue!

      3.) It casts doubt upon God's word by trying to reduce a good portion of it to "figurative/symbolic" status. ONLY GOD can do that! It's HIS word! And, where symbolism is used, such as in Rev. 17, God's angel gives its explanation of what literal things it symbolizes. However, NONE of Jesus' Olivet Discourse is symbolic.

      And Josephus saw/heard chariots in the sky above Jerusalem? Funny, none of the Romans with him saw/heard them, nor did any of the hundreds of thousands of Jews in & around Jerusalem! Josephus was writing to entertain Vespasian, not to record history.

      Simple TRUTH is, the eschatological events are yet to occur, and preterism is false!
      1) we actually take Him at His word

      2) He did say the great tribulation would happen during their lifetime. This generation I believe He said.

      3) Some things are figurative in scripture.

      4) Could you provide documentation that Joseph us was writing merely to entertain Vespasian???

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by reformedguy View Post

        1) we actually take Him at His word

        2) He did say the great tribulation would happen during their lifetime. This generation I believe He said.

        3) Some things are figurative in scripture.

        4) Could you provide documentation that Joseph us was writing merely to entertain Vespasian???
        I don't have Josephus' writings in fronta me right now, but I can tell you some of what to expect if you read'em.

        An example is the speech supposedly made by Eleazer, the leader of the Jews at Masada. As Eleazer & all the men who heard the speech, if it was made, were slain there, & Josephus was NOT there, of course, he could not have heard such a speech if indeed it'd been made.

        Josephus claimed to have seen & heard chariots over Jerusalem as it fell to the Romans. Strange, only Josephus claims to have witnessed this, despite there being several hundred thousand Jews & tens of thousands of Romans in the area.

        Many of his ACCURATE accounts were copied from the Roman "Hypomnemata", the Imperial Roman commentaries. He knew Vespasian had read them, & he knew Vespasian didn't know Josephus had read them also. (Josephus mentioned them in some of his writings made after Vespasian's death.)

        And Josephus wrote in Greek, not Latin or Hebrew Most Romans used Greek as their everyday language insteada Latin, and Vespasian likely knew both tongues, but likely used Greek most of the time, as most of his soldiers only knew Greek.

        One scholarly critic of his accuracy & credibility is Prof. Dr. Shaye J. D. Cohen, Littauer Professor of Hebrew literature at Harvard. His doctorate is in ancient history from the University of Columbia. He is one of the leading experts on Jewish history in the world, & has appeared on the PBS show Nova as an expert on Jewish history.

        You may believe his stuff as you wish, but I'm no slouch on world history myself, & it's quite-obvious that the prophesied eschatological events have NOT yet occurred.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by roby3 View Post

          I don't have Josephus' writings in fronta me right now, but I can tell you some of what to expect if you read'em.

          An example is the speech supposedly made by Eleazer, the leader of the Jews at Masada. As Eleazer & all the men who heard the speech, if it was made, were slain there, & Josephus was NOT there, of course, he could not have heard such a speech if indeed it'd been made.

          Josephus claimed to have seen & heard chariots over Jerusalem as it fell to the Romans. Strange, only Josephus claims to have witnessed this, despite there being several hundred thousand Jews & tens of thousands of Romans in the area.

          Many of his ACCURATE accounts were copied from the Roman "Hypomnemata", the Imperial Roman commentaries. He knew Vespasian had read them, & he knew Vespasian didn't know Josephus had read them also. (Josephus mentioned them in some of his writings made after Vespasian's death.)

          And Josephus wrote in Greek, not Latin or Hebrew Most Romans used Greek as their everyday language insteada Latin, and Vespasian likely knew both tongues, but likely used Greek most of the time, as most of his soldiers only knew Greek.

          One scholarly critic of his accuracy & credibility is Prof. Dr. Shaye J. D. Cohen, Littauer Professor of Hebrew literature at Harvard. His doctorate is in ancient history from the University of Columbia. He is one of the leading experts on Jewish history in the world, & has appeared on the PBS show Nova as an expert on Jewish history.

          You may believe his stuff as you wish, but I'm no slouch on world history myself, & it's quite-obvious that the prophesied eschatological events have NOT yet occurred.
          Josephus claims to be a eyewitness to these events. Josephus was Jewish and it's funny he witnessed things that would only prove the claims of Jesus, who he would deny was the messiah, yet chose to record them anyway. So what i need from you is motive.

          As far as Masada goes there are many things recorded in scripture by those who did not actually see or hear first hand. Would you dismiss those as well?

          I believe they have occurred because Jesus told us exactly when they would occur. "This generation" does not mean that generation. Soon take place does not mean 2000 years later.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by reformedguy View Post

            Josephus claims to be a eyewitness to these events. Josephus was Jewish and it's funny he witnessed things that would only prove the claims of Jesus, who he would deny was the messiah, yet chose to record them anyway. So what i need from you is motive.

            As far as Masada goes there are many things recorded in scripture by those who did not actually see or hear first hand. Would you dismiss those as well?

            I believe they have occurred because Jesus told us exactly when they would occur. "This generation" does not mean that generation. Soon take place does not mean 2000 years later.
            Excellent points!
            "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ... And hath raised us up together, and made us sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." Ephesians 2:5,6

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by reformedguy View Post

              Josephus claims to be a eyewitness to these events. Josephus was Jewish and it's funny he witnessed things that would only prove the claims of Jesus, who he would deny was the messiah, yet chose to record them anyway. So what i need from you is motive.
              Funny, Josephus claims to have seen & heard chariots in the sky over Jerusalem, while several hundred thousand other people in the area missed them !

              As far as Masada goes there are many things recorded in scripture by those who did not actually see or hear first hand. Would you dismiss those as well?
              The Masada story isn't Scripture, preserved by GOD.

              I believe they have occurred because Jesus told us exactly when they would occur. "This generation" does not mean that generation. Soon take place does not mean 2000 years later.
              Oh, REALLY?

              Then, please show us FROM HISTORY when they occurred ! Please tell us the name of the "beast" and that of his sidekick the false prophet ! Please describe the marka the beast ! Please show us from history when the AOD occurred! And please show us from history when Jesus returned !

              Now, as for "this generation", I strongly recommend you study CLOSELY the various English meanings of the Greek word genea, often translated "generation" in mose English Bibles. You'll see it could also mean "the whole Jewish people" as Jesus used it. Obviously, He didn't return in that generation !

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by roby3 View Post

                Funny, Josephus claims to have seen & heard chariots in the sky over Jerusalem, while several hundred thousand other people in the area missed them !



                The Masada story isn't Scripture, preserved by GOD.



                Oh, REALLY?

                Then, please show us FROM HISTORY when they occurred ! Please tell us the name of the "beast" and that of his sidekick the false prophet ! Please describe the marka the beast ! Please show us from history when the AOD occurred! And please show us from history when Jesus returned !

                Now, as for "this generation", I strongly recommend you study CLOSELY the various English meanings of the Greek word genea, often translated "generation" in mose English Bibles. You'll see it could also mean "the whole Jewish people" as Jesus used it. Obviously, He didn't return in that generation !
                How do you know they all missed them? We're you there?

                Nobody said it was scripture. Strawman

                The beast is not named. My guess is Nero.

                The whole Jewish people alive at the time. That generation alive at the time of Christ. This does not mean that. Good effort though

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by reformedguy View Post

                  How do you know they all missed them? We're you there?
                  Nobody, but NOBODY else wrote about them. And mosta those people were literate.

                  Nobody said it was scripture. Strawman
                  You almost inplied it was.

                  The beast is not named. My guess is Nero.
                  MMRRPP ! WRONG!
                  nero failed to meet many Scriptural criteria for the beast. (Read the thread "My Hero Nero".)Truth is, he hasn't yet come.

                  The whole Jewish people alive at the time. That generation alive at the time of Christ. This does not mean that. Good effort though
                  Simple challence: Please show us FROM HISTORY that those events have already occurred ! I gave Sower the same challenge. Maybe you & she can get your heads together and invent a new excuse.

                  We're WAITING...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by JacobTH View Post
                    When it comes to defending and proving his doctrine, Prets is trapped between stone and solid. There is a huge gap between the preparatory doctrine (all and part) and reality / history. Prets tried to bridge this gap using an excuse such as “Jesus’s words in the Bible are figurative / symbolic. However, the ARTISTIC incarnation in many prophecies of Jesus made this justification false.

                    The problem with pretas is that, as Christians, they know better than they lie.
                    The problem with Dispensationalists is that, as false Christians, they don't know better than to lie.

                    Dispensationalists lie and deny that "this generation" means his generation would be when the temple would be destroyed. Dispensatanalists lie every time the Bible says "soon" or "at hand" by claiming those words don't mean what they mean. Dispensatanalists lie when they say they take Revelation literally, but insist such things as locusts are helicopters.

                    It's not a lie to say Jesus sometimes used figurative language. Dispensatanlists often assign figerative language to the Bible, like when they insist "last hour" means thousands of years, or that Jesus reference "fig tree AND OTHER TREES" means Israel. Satan is a father of lies: and Dispensatanlists tell one truth, that they have the "same god" as the so-called Jews, John 8:44.





                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by reformedguy View Post

                      Josephus claims to be a eyewitness to these events. Josephus was Jewish and it's funny he witnessed things that would only prove the claims of Jesus, who he would deny was the messiah, yet chose to record them anyway. So what i need from you is motive.
                      Leave it to Dispensationalists to deny the faith-building fulfillment of prophecy and to make Jesus a liar (or, as many ex-Christians believe, Jesus was just mistaken about the end times, thinking it would be in his generation).

                      While the fake Christians are assaulting the evidence of fulfilled prophecy and the reliability of the Bible, keep in mind that for their own claims, they have no evidence to be even consider. It's all the future. We'll just have to wait for their evidence to appear in the future. Actually, they have made many imbecilic claims, which all turn out to be false. For a good laugh at their pathetic and abandoned nonsense, just read their old book like the Late Great Planet Earth. Hey, where can we catch early 1980s episodes of that self-declared prophet Jack van Impe? They're all locked away, if not destroyed.




                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Ruk View Post

                        Leave it to Dispensationalists to deny the faith-building fulfillment of prophecy and to make Jesus a liar (or, as many ex-Christians believe, Jesus was just mistaken about the end times, thinking it would be in his generation).

                        While the fake Christians are assaulting the evidence of fulfilled prophecy and the reliability of the Bible, keep in mind that for their own claims, they have no evidence to be even consider. It's all the future. We'll just have to wait for their evidence to appear in the future. Actually, they have made many imbecilic claims, which all turn out to be false. For a good laugh at their pathetic and abandoned nonsense, just read their old book like the Late Great Planet Earth. Hey, where can we catch early 1980s episodes of that self-declared prophet Jack van Impe? They're all locked away, if not destroyed.



                        Simply show us from history where the eschatological events have already occurred. Please tell us who the beast & his false prophet sidekick were. Please describe the marka the beast. Please tell us when all life in the seas died, and. most of all, please tell us when Jesus returned, seen by all as He said He'd be.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by roby3 View Post

                          Simply show us from history where the eschatological events have already occurred. Please tell us who the beast & his false prophet sidekick were. Please describe the marka the beast. Please tell us when all life in the seas died, and. most of all, please tell us when Jesus returned, seen by all as He said He'd be.
                          I think my post went way over your head, as you demonstrated what I was pointing out, thinking you were proving something else.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Ruk View Post

                            I think my post went way over your head, as you demonstrated what I was pointing out, thinking you were proving something else.
                            Not at all. You can either prove preterism is true from history or you can't. I'm not interested in the rest of the silliness.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by roby3 View Post

                              Not at all. You can either prove preterism is true from history or you can't. I'm not interested in the rest of the silliness.
                              You asked who the beast & his false prophet sidekick were. You can browse Preterist websites for those answers. Irenaeus (whom Dispensationalists, abusers of all things, abuse for a late date of Revelation) believed the beast was Rome, the same Rome that destroyed the temple (which I won't bother trying to prove was destroyed).

                              Who do say the beast is, and prove it. Why ask of me what you won't do yourself.



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