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Not Forgetting the Past, Moving Forward

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  • Not Forgetting the Past, Moving Forward

    [I penned this nearly 11 years ago. Sometimes it is good to see where I was and where I am now.]

    I became a fully surrendered Christian to God in 1984. Before that time I had given my life to Christ but was not obedient due to various reasons. My home church was a Southern Baptist Church. None of my family was religious during my growing up years and neither were any of my friends.

    Once I surrendered to Christ with the help of an Assemblies of God attendee, I followed my parents to Faith Center, a Word of Faith Church. My parents had gone there for a little while. I was about 25 at the time.

    I had a message from God telling me that my wife would be Judy. The message came to me while I was away for training for eighteen weeks. It came in a dream. I knew when I got home that we would go out for a date. Around Christmas God told Judy that I was the one for her. We both had seen each other once before. But we had never spoken.
    We dated starting January 1st twenty-two years ago. Then, we got engaged seven weeks later. And finally married on October 18th.

    I seemingly fit in to Faith Center right away. I had a testimony of what God had done for me. He delivered me of some sin habits that I developed during my adolescent years. He helped me to understand who I am in Christ and completed the reconciliation that started in my life at about eighteen years of age.

    I got involved in many ministries including: Children’s, Choir, Evangelism Explosion, and Deliverance. My eventual ministry, which I believe God wired me for, is apologetics. I started going to “Nationally known Kevin Johnson of Mount Carmel Outreach” apologetics class.

    During the first few years of involvement at Faith Center and Mount Carmel Outreach, I had heard that there were people who left Faith Center and bad mouthed it. Well, the usual comment was that they had a bitter spirit or lacked faith. Being one of the “Spiritual” leaders of Faith Center, I bought in to those reasons.
    While studying the scriptures, I found some problems with the Word Faith movement. It seemed that they left some important things out of their formulas. First God’s will isn’t necessarily our will. Our idea of good for us isn’t necessarily God’s idea of good for us.

    Finally, God is sovereign not man. The rampant personalization and out-of-context use of scripture was more like incantations of people hoping to somehow hit the spiritual lottery.
    The first great error that I encountered was the JDS (Jesus Died Spiritually) doctrine which sent up a huge flag. I found that many Word Faith Teachers/Preachers taught that Jesus did not pay for our sins on the cross. It was actually done in Hell. Then he had to be Born Again (BAJ).

    The second problem I ran in to was that the teachers/preachers also taught that you are a little god. More flags went up.
    I mentioned these items to someone who had called my home. Her husband went to the pastor and said that I was trying to be a schismatic and cause trouble. He also said that I was sending a petition around to get Word Faith books out of our store. At this point, I had not considered these things. I eventually asked the pastor to remove them. Of course, that did not happen. A side note, that man was later to be found addicted to cocaine during this time frame. He recently died a painful death.

    There was much travail in my home and spiritual life. My wife and I left the church. We came back for a short time. But, that was it. A woman even told my wife that she had every right to leave me.

    I began to study and learn all that I could on the Word Faith Movement. Most of the books were short with some good points. But they were not giving me the full value that I needed.
    Some of those books were:
    The Born-Again Jesus of the Faith Movement, Judith Matta
    JDS: The Jesus Died Spiritually Heresy, Hobart Freeman
    The Health and Wealth Gospel, Bruce Barron

    I finally found a book by D.R. McConnell called, A Different Gospel. This book hit it all on the head. The historical roots of the Word Faith movement were the metaphysical mind science cults. And probably two years later, Christianity in Crisis was released. This was another solid book documenting what these guys were actually saying. One last book that I read recently was “The Word Faith Controversy” by Robert Bowman.
    In a nutshell, if there were no “Little gods” doctrine or BAJ/JDS, I would have stayed at Faith Center much longer.

    Recently, the last two plus years, I have gotten back in to apologetics. There was a two-fold reason. First, I had a Mormon come to my door and though I knew what to say, I was rusty. Second, my son attended an Assembly of God School which is loaded with Word Faith adherents.
    Well, a year later, I got to defend the faith again with some visiting Mormons. And, my son had some questions about what some of his friends believed. I was able to clearly explain the Orthodox Christian perspective and show the error of the WoF system.

    While spending time at a Christian Forum, I met Tallen who is solidly a Reformed- believer and is a strong proponent of the Confessions. He has had a profound impact on my understanding of Reformed Theology. I had a general understanding of the Confessions. I adhered to the London Confession mostly due to my SBC background. Since, I have taken time to research and write about, “The Three Forms of Unity”. And have begun to use the WCF as a resource when discussing doctrine with those of the cultic or heterodox persuasion.
    I love systematic theology. I have A.A. and Charles Hodge, Berkhof, and Thiessen as resources. My library does include The Christian Institutes. I am a BIG R.C. SPROUL fan. I must have 7 or 8 of his books

    I do have a sticking point in my theology. I am firmly covenantal in my eschatology. I lean towards Partial-Preterism. In some respects, I’m a tweener. I’m between many views not knowing which to hold to. So, in this area, have patience with me.

    Shalom,

    YP

    [After all of these years, still no regrets for leaving Word Faith. It was the right choice. That AOG that my son was attending school at, I now attend there and have been there for Church for nearly 10 years. The WoF contingent left the AOG and started their own Church about 11 years ago.

    That WoF church that I attended has gone from about 900 attendees to less than 300. One of their pastors went to prison for making counterfeit documents (i.e. money order or bonds). The church started to build a $12,000,000 building. The great recession did that in. There are towering cement walls in their parking lot reminding everyone of their errant choice. Tallen has seen them.

    As for my understanding of theology, I am more Reformed than when I originally wrote this. I settled in on a Post Millennial eschatology with a partial preterist slant. The doctrines of grace and the sovereignty of God clearly make more sense than the WoF Finney-ism and sovereignty of man.

    If you are considering leaving WoF, don’t walk. Run! God’s word is true. And WoF is a liar…]
    Be light. Share The Gospel. Grow the Kingdom...

  • #2
    Thanks for the heads up.
    Without Love we are nothing more than noise makers.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Yodas_Prodigy View Post
      [I penned this nearly 11 years ago. Sometimes it is good to see where I was and where I am now.]

      I became a fully surrendered Christian to God in 1984. Before that time I had given my life to Christ but was not obedient due to various reasons. My home church was a Southern Baptist Church. None of my family was religious during my growing up years and neither were any of my friends.

      Once I surrendered to Christ with the help of an Assemblies of God attendee, I followed my parents to Faith Center, a Word of Faith Church. My parents had gone there for a little while. I was about 25 at the time.

      I had a message from God telling me that my wife would be Judy. The message came to me while I was away for training for eighteen weeks. It came in a dream. I knew when I got home that we would go out for a date. Around Christmas God told Judy that I was the one for her. We both had seen each other once before. But we had never spoken.
      We dated starting January 1st twenty-two years ago. Then, we got engaged seven weeks later. And finally married on October 18th.

      I seemingly fit in to Faith Center right away. I had a testimony of what God had done for me. He delivered me of some sin habits that I developed during my adolescent years. He helped me to understand who I am in Christ and completed the reconciliation that started in my life at about eighteen years of age.

      I got involved in many ministries including: Children’s, Choir, Evangelism Explosion, and Deliverance. My eventual ministry, which I believe God wired me for, is apologetics. I started going to “Nationally known Kevin Johnson of Mount Carmel Outreach” apologetics class.

      During the first few years of involvement at Faith Center and Mount Carmel Outreach, I had heard that there were people who left Faith Center and bad mouthed it. Well, the usual comment was that they had a bitter spirit or lacked faith. Being one of the “Spiritual” leaders of Faith Center, I bought in to those reasons.
      While studying the scriptures, I found some problems with the Word Faith movement. It seemed that they left some important things out of their formulas. First God’s will isn’t necessarily our will. Our idea of good for us isn’t necessarily God’s idea of good for us.

      Finally, God is sovereign not man. The rampant personalization and out-of-context use of scripture was more like incantations of people hoping to somehow hit the spiritual lottery.
      The first great error that I encountered was the JDS (Jesus Died Spiritually) doctrine which sent up a huge flag. I found that many Word Faith Teachers/Preachers taught that Jesus did not pay for our sins on the cross. It was actually done in Hell. Then he had to be Born Again (BAJ).

      The second problem I ran in to was that the teachers/preachers also taught that you are a little god. More flags went up.
      I mentioned these items to someone who had called my home. Her husband went to the pastor and said that I was trying to be a schismatic and cause trouble. He also said that I was sending a petition around to get Word Faith books out of our store. At this point, I had not considered these things. I eventually asked the pastor to remove them. Of course, that did not happen. A side note, that man was later to be found addicted to cocaine during this time frame. He recently died a painful death.

      There was much travail in my home and spiritual life. My wife and I left the church. We came back for a short time. But, that was it. A woman even told my wife that she had every right to leave me.

      I began to study and learn all that I could on the Word Faith Movement. Most of the books were short with some good points. But they were not giving me the full value that I needed.
      Some of those books were:
      The Born-Again Jesus of the Faith Movement, Judith Matta
      JDS: The Jesus Died Spiritually Heresy, Hobart Freeman
      The Health and Wealth Gospel, Bruce Barron

      I finally found a book by D.R. McConnell called, A Different Gospel. This book hit it all on the head. The historical roots of the Word Faith movement were the metaphysical mind science cults. And probably two years later, Christianity in Crisis was released. This was another solid book documenting what these guys were actually saying. One last book that I read recently was “The Word Faith Controversy” by Robert Bowman.
      In a nutshell, if there were no “Little gods” doctrine or BAJ/JDS, I would have stayed at Faith Center much longer.

      Recently, the last two plus years, I have gotten back in to apologetics. There was a two-fold reason. First, I had a Mormon come to my door and though I knew what to say, I was rusty. Second, my son attended an Assembly of God School which is loaded with Word Faith adherents.
      Well, a year later, I got to defend the faith again with some visiting Mormons. And, my son had some questions about what some of his friends believed. I was able to clearly explain the Orthodox Christian perspective and show the error of the WoF system.

      While spending time at a Christian Forum, I met Tallen who is solidly a Reformed- believer and is a strong proponent of the Confessions. He has had a profound impact on my understanding of Reformed Theology. I had a general understanding of the Confessions. I adhered to the London Confession mostly due to my SBC background. Since, I have taken time to research and write about, “The Three Forms of Unity”. And have begun to use the WCF as a resource when discussing doctrine with those of the cultic or heterodox persuasion.
      I love systematic theology. I have A.A. and Charles Hodge, Berkhof, and Thiessen as resources. My library does include The Christian Institutes. I am a BIG R.C. SPROUL fan. I must have 7 or 8 of his books

      I do have a sticking point in my theology. I am firmly covenantal in my eschatology. I lean towards Partial-Preterism. In some respects, I’m a tweener. I’m between many views not knowing which to hold to. So, in this area, have patience with me.

      Shalom,

      YP

      [After all of these years, still no regrets for leaving Word Faith. It was the right choice. That AOG that my son was attending school at, I now attend there and have been there for Church for nearly 10 years. The WoF contingent left the AOG and started their own Church about 11 years ago.

      That WoF church that I attended has gone from about 900 attendees to less than 300. One of their pastors went to prison for making counterfeit documents (i.e. money order or bonds). The church started to build a $12,000,000 building. The great recession did that in. There are towering cement walls in their parking lot reminding everyone of their errant choice. Tallen has seen them.

      As for my understanding of theology, I am more Reformed than when I originally wrote this. I settled in on a Post Millennial eschatology with a partial preterist slant. The doctrines of grace and the sovereignty of God clearly make more sense than the WoF Finney-ism and sovereignty of man.

      If you are considering leaving WoF, don’t walk. Run! God’s word is true. And WoF is a liar…]
      Still growing and tweaking my theology since I left wof..., no regrets and certainly the best thing I've done theologically.
      ---> Insert your denial here. <---

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Tallen View Post

        Still growing and tweaking my theology since I left wof..., no regrets and certainly the best thing I've done theologically.
        Yep your theology needs alot of work.I agree with you.
        Without Love we are nothing more than noise makers.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by spokenword View Post
          Yep your theology needs alot of work.I agree with you.
          Good. I'm waiting to see one biblical presentation from you. You can't back up most of your claims..., as almost every thread proves.

          BTW, why are you throwing stones in this thread after you condemned folks for throwing stones? More of your hypocrisy on display.
          ---> Insert your denial here. <---

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Tallen View Post



            BTW, why are you throwing stones in this thread after you condemned folks for throwing stones? More of your hypocrisy on display.
            It's what trolls do.
            Phynerk
            " Getting a straight answer from a Word Of Faith'er is like nailing Jello to a wall." MRCPU

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Tallen View Post
              Why are you throwing stones in this thread after you condemned folks for throwing stones? More of your hypocrisy on display.
              I was just in agreement with your comment.. No stones thrown. Shsssss;

              Without Love we are nothing more than noise makers.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by spokenword View Post
                I was just in agreement with your comment.. No stones thrown. Shsssss;
                You bore false witness in your attempt to be funny. You twisted what I said and then stated a lie.

                I won't expect that you're capable of repentence.
                ---> Insert your denial here. <---

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Yodas_Prodigy View Post

                  During the first few years of involvement at Faith Center and Mount Carmel Outreach, I had heard that there were people who left Faith Center and bad mouthed it. Well, the usual comment was that they had a bitter spirit or lacked faith. Being one of the “Spiritual” leaders of Faith Center, I bought in to those reasons.
                  While studying the scriptures, I found some problems with the Word Faith movement. It seemed that they left some important things out of their formulas. First God’s will isn’t necessarily our will. Our idea of good for us isn’t necessarily God’s idea of good for us.

                  Finally, God is sovereign not man. The rampant personalization and out-of-context use of scripture was more like incantations of people hoping to somehow hit the spiritual lottery.
                  The first great error that I encountered was the JDS (Jesus Died Spiritually) doctrine which sent up a huge flag. I found that many Word Faith Teachers/Preachers taught that Jesus did not pay for our sins on the cross. It was actually done in Hell. Then he had to be Born Again (BAJ).

                  The second problem I ran in to was that the teachers/preachers also taught that you are a little god. More flags went up.
                  I mentioned these items to someone who had called my home. Her husband went to the pastor and said that I was trying to be a schismatic and cause trouble. He also said that I was sending a petition around to get Word Faith books out of our store. At this point, I had not considered these things. I eventually asked the pastor to remove them. Of course, that did not happen. A side note, that man was later to be found addicted to cocaine during this time frame. He recently died a painful death.

                  There was much travail in my home and spiritual life. My wife and I left the church. We came back for a short time. But, that was it. A woman even told my wife that she had every right to leave me.

                  I began to study and learn all that I could on the Word Faith Movement. Most of the books were short with some good points. But they were not giving me the full value that I needed.
                  Some of those books were:
                  The Born-Again Jesus of the Faith Movement, Judith Matta
                  JDS: The Jesus Died Spiritually Heresy, Hobart Freeman
                  The Health and Wealth Gospel, Bruce Barron

                  I finally found a book by D.R. McConnell called, A Different Gospel. This book hit it all on the head. The historical roots of the Word Faith movement were the metaphysical mind science cults. And probably two years later, Christianity in Crisis was released. This was another solid book documenting what these guys were actually saying. One last book that I read recently was “The Word Faith Controversy” by Robert Bowman.
                  In a nutshell, if there were no “Little gods” doctrine or BAJ/JDS, I would have stayed at Faith Center much longer.

                  Recently, the last two plus years, I have gotten back in to apologetics. There was a two-fold reason. First, I had a Mormon come to my door and though I knew what to say, I was rusty. Second, my son attended an Assembly of God School which is loaded with Word Faith adherents.
                  Well, a year later, I got to defend the faith again with some visiting Mormons. And, my son had some questions about what some of his friends believed. I was able to clearly explain the Orthodox Christian perspective and show the error of the WoF system.

                  While spending time at a Christian Forum, I met Tallen who is solidly a Reformed- believer and is a strong proponent of the Confessions. He has had a profound impact on my understanding of Reformed Theology. I had a general understanding of the Confessions. I adhered to the London Confession mostly due to my SBC background. Since, I have taken time to research and write about, “The Three Forms of Unity”. And have begun to use the WCF as a resource when discussing doctrine with those of the cultic or heterodox persuasion.
                  I love systematic theology. I have A.A. and Charles Hodge, Berkhof, and Thiessen as resources. My library does include The Christian Institutes. I am a BIG R.C. SPROUL fan. I must have 7 or 8 of his books

                  I do have a sticking point in my theology. I am firmly covenantal in my eschatology. I lean towards Partial-Preterism. In some respects, I’m a tweener. I’m between many views not knowing which to hold to. So, in this area, have patience with me.

                  Shalom,

                  YPW
                  1. God's will isn't necessarily our will. True, but WoF theology goes by what God has already revealed to be His will in His Word. We don't exercise faith for another man's wife or for multiple wives or immortality. We exercise faith for things that are in accordance with God's will.
                  2. God is sovereign. The mantra of the Reformed/cessationist crowd. Of course God is sovereign. No Christian is going to deny that God is the ultimate authority. That's not the issue. The issue is "what are the implications of God's sovereignty?" Does the sovereignty of God mean that only those God chooses to save will be saved, while those that God chooses to burn in the fires of hell for eternity are just out of luck? Or is their perhaps a way that God's sovereignty and our faith and free will can become theologically compatible? As you read through the gospels you will see Jesus referring to the faith of the individual more than to the sovereignty of God. He never turned away one person who came to Him for healing due to the fact that it wasn't God's sovereign will.
                  3. Jesus Died Spiritually. Although Kenneth Hagin did teach that Jesus finished paying for our sins in hell (as did Calvin and others ...thus the debate over the line in the Apostles' Creed), he never wrote one book on the subject and it was never a major part of his teaching. I personally hold to a more mainstream view on this matter, but I don't consider it heresy because it doesn't violate any essential doctrine. It's just a different view on the process of atonement. The reference to Jesus dying spiritually only pertains to separation from the Father. Kenneth Hagin never taught that Jesus had a sin nature or became a sinner. Billy Graham also stated that Jesus experienced spiritual death, so I consider this a nonessential issue as well. By the way, Judith Matta is an Eastern Orthodox nutjob.
                  4. A Different Gospel. D. R. McConnell made irresponsible and baseless assertions in that book, that were completely debunked by the leading authority on Kenyon - Joe McIntyre. Joe had everything that Kenyon wrote because he was the leader of the Kenyon Gospel Publishing Society. Even well known anti-WoF theologians took issue with McConnell's "New Thought" origins claim. Kenyon rejected New Thought and was ordained with the Free Will Baptists. Kenneth Hagin's theological roots were Pentecostalism. Here's a good series of rebuttals to the book. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeCG...2JcyrxZ46ABQot

                  If you're happy in an AG church I'm happy for you. I spent 6 years with the AG and my AG pastor knew Kenneth Hagin. In fact his son has known Kenneth Hagin's son for 50 years. The time I spent in that church was priceless. It changed my life, but I would never attend a church like that today. I've moved on. I'm WoF and I will gladly remain WoF because I see the basics of WoF theology throughout the scriptures. If you don't see it the same way then fine, but I had to counter the false assumptions I detected in your post. Blessings.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Simon View Post

                    1. God's will isn't necessarily our will. True, but WoF theology goes by what God has already revealed to be His will in His Word. We don't exercise faith for another man's wife or for multiple wives or immortality. We exercise faith for things that are in accordance with God's will.
                    2. God is sovereign. The mantra of the Reformed/cessationist crowd. Of course God is sovereign. No Christian is going to deny that God is the ultimate authority. That's not the issue. The issue is "what are the implications of God's sovereignty?" Does the sovereignty of God mean that only those God chooses to save will be saved, while those that God chooses to burn in the fires of hell for eternity are just out of luck? Or is their perhaps a way that God's sovereignty and our faith and free will can become theologically compatible? As you read through the gospels you will see Jesus referring to the faith of the individual more than to the sovereignty of God. He never turned away one person who came to Him for healing due to the fact that it wasn't God's sovereign will.
                    3. Jesus Died Spiritually. Although Kenneth Hagin did teach that Jesus finished paying for our sins in hell (as did Calvin and others ...thus the debate over the line in the Apostles' Creed), he never wrote one book on the subject and it was never a major part of his teaching. I personally hold to a more mainstream view on this matter, but I don't consider it heresy because it doesn't violate any essential doctrine. It's just a different view on the process of atonement. The reference to Jesus dying spiritually only pertains to separation from the Father. Kenneth Hagin never taught that Jesus had a sin nature or became a sinner. Billy Graham also stated that Jesus experienced spiritual death, so I consider this a nonessential issue as well. By the way, Judith Matta is an Eastern Orthodox nutjob.
                    4. A Different Gospel. D. R. McConnell made irresponsible and baseless assertions in that book, that were completely debunked by the leading authority on Kenyon - Joe McIntyre. Joe had everything that Kenyon wrote because he was the leader of the Kenyon Gospel Publishing Society. Even well known anti-WoF theologians took issue with McConnell's "New Thought" origins claim. Kenyon rejected New Thought and was ordained with the Free Will Baptists. Kenneth Hagin's theological roots were Pentecostalism. Here's a good series of rebuttals to the book. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeCG...2JcyrxZ46ABQot

                    If you're happy in an AG church I'm happy for you. I spent 6 years with the AG and my AG pastor knew Kenneth Hagin. In fact his son has known Kenneth Hagin's son for 50 years. The time I spent in that church was priceless. It changed my life, but I would never attend a church like that today. I've moved on. I'm WoF and I will gladly remain WoF because I see the basics of WoF theology throughout the scriptures. If you don't see it the same way then fine, but I had to counter the false assumptions I detected in your post. Blessings.
                    Concerning freewill and your misunderstanding of Reformed theology. Consider the Westerminster Confession of Faith Chapter 9.1:

                    1: God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to good or evil.

                    Do you agree with this statement?

                    As to Calvin teaching JDS, he didnt..., he refuted it in his Institutes. What people quote from The Institutes is taken out of context. He was laying out Roman Catholic doctrine, which he then completely and utterly refutes. I would be happy to address this if you want.

                    Maybe more to come if we can concentrate on the discussion without the forum troll interjecting his asinine and ignorant c**p.
                    ---> Insert your denial here. <---

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Simon View Post

                      If you're happy in an AG church I'm happy for you. I spent 6 years with the AG and my AG pastor knew Kenneth Hagin. In fact his son has known Kenneth Hagin's son for 50 years. The time I spent in that church was priceless. It changed my life, but I would never attend a church like that today. I've moved on. I'm WoF and I will gladly remain WoF because I see the basics of WoF theology throughout the scriptures. If you don't see it the same way then fine, but I had to counter the false assumptions I detected in your post. Blessings.
                      God's will isn't necessarily our will. True, but WoF theology goes by what God has already revealed to be His will in His Word. We don't exercise faith for another man's wife or for multiple wives or immortality. We exercise faith for things that are in accordance with God's will.

                      YPís Response

                      WOF theology assumes Godís will. Have seen it hundreds or thousands of times on this forum alone. WOF takes a passage and assumes that passage is for them, ignoring the context.

                      God is sovereign. The mantra of the Reformed/cessationist crowd. Of course God is sovereign. No Christian is going to deny that God is the ultimate authority. That's not the issue. The issue is "what are the implications of God's sovereignty?" Does the sovereignty of God mean that only those God chooses to save will be saved, while those that God chooses to burn in the fires of hell for eternity are just out of luck? Or is their perhaps a way that God's sovereignty and our faith and free will can become theologically compatible? As you read through the gospels you will see Jesus referring to the faith of the individual more than to the sovereignty of God. He never turned away one person who came to Him for healing due to the fact that it wasn't God's sovereign will.

                      YPís Response

                      Apples and OrangesÖ The New Testament assumes Godís sovereignty. Christ is God. He is sovereign. Free will is always exercised through each personís nature. A person with a fallen nature will not seek the things of God (Romans 3). Faith is one of the vehicles God uses to exercise his will.



                      Jesus Died Spiritually. Although Kenneth Hagin did teach that Jesus finished paying for our sins in hell (as did Calvin and others ...thus the debate over the line in the Apostles' Creed), he never wrote one book on the subject and it was never a major part of his teaching. I personally hold to a more mainstream view on this matter, but I don't consider it heresy because it doesn't violate any essential doctrine. It's just a different view on the process of atonement. The reference to Jesus dying spiritually only pertains to separation from the Father. Kenneth Hagin never taught that Jesus had a sin nature or became a sinner. Billy Graham also stated that Jesus experienced spiritual death, so I consider this a nonessential issue as well. By the way, Judith Matta is an Eastern Orthodox nutjob.

                      YPís Response

                      Calvin never taught JDS. That was a Troy Edwardís lie. Try reading Institutes. JDS does violate essential doctrines. The atonement was Christ shed blood, not the additional suffering in Hell. Christ was the sinless, holy Lamb of God. Not a sinful homosexual, rapist, adulterer, lying murderer. Again, the JDS doctrine not only attacks the person and work of Christ. It does damage to the Trinity. Billy Graham did not teach the WOF version of JDS. Judith Matta being Eastern Orthodox does not negate her position on JDS. Ironically, WOF Apologist Troy Edwards often used Eastern Orthodoxy to support the WOF Little god doctrine.


                      A Different Gospel. D. R. McConnell made irresponsible and baseless assertions in that book, that were completely debunked by the leading authority on Kenyon - Joe McIntyre. Joe had everything that Kenyon wrote because he was the leader of the Kenyon Gospel Publishing Society. Even well known anti-WoF theologians took issue with McConnell's "New Thought" origins claim. Kenyon rejected New Thought and was ordained with the Free Will Baptists. Kenneth Hagin's theological roots were Pentecostalism. Here's a good series of rebuttals to the book. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeCG...2JcyrxZ46ABQot

                      YPís Response


                      Joe McIntyre, God rest his soul, was a useful idiot for EW Kenyon and WOF in general. Joe came to our forum for one day and then scurried away. He ran in to a buzz saw of people who know how to handle his objections.


                      You can deny all you want. I have spoken to a Mary Baker Eddy type. She denied ever going to a doctor in her life, while wearing glassesÖ
                      Be light. Share The Gospel. Grow the Kingdom...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Tallen View Post

                        Concerning freewill and your misunderstanding of Reformed theology. Consider the Westerminster Confession of Faith Chapter 9.1:

                        1: God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to good or evil.

                        Do you agree with this statement?

                        As to Calvin teaching JDS, he didnt..., he refuted it in his Institutes. What people quote from The Institutes is taken out of context. He was laying out Roman Catholic doctrine, which he then completely and utterly refutes. I would be happy to address this if you want.

                        Maybe more to come if we can concentrate on the discussion without the forum troll interjecting his asinine and ignorant c**p.
                        Like you said you still have alot to learn. Start here++++ Ephesians 4:29ďLet no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.ĒKing James Version (KJV)




                        Without Love we are nothing more than noise makers.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by spokenword View Post
                          Like you said you still have alot to learn. Start here++++ Ephesians 4:29“Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.”King James Version (KJV)
                          Apply that to yourself.
                          ---> Insert your denial here. <---

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Tallen View Post

                            Apply that to yourself.
                            I,m only judging the fruits in you conversation here. Care to point out my corrupt communication(bad language) in any of my posts..
                            Without Love we are nothing more than noise makers.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by spokenword View Post
                              I,m only judging the fruits in you conversation here. Care to point out my corrupt communication(bad language) in any of my posts..
                              How many times have I pointed out your false witness and corrupt claims. Many, many, many times.

                              Where is my bad language? Bad language is not what corrupt communication is. Corrupt communication is when a person lies or adds a false witness to disparage another. BTW, why don't you point out your own fruit, which many posters in the forum have pointed out to you?
                              ---> Insert your denial here. <---

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