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wof and their sinning children

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Yodas_Prodigy View Post

    Yep, God's choice... But that's another discussion...


    Yeah you're right! God chose to ALLOW beings with FREE WILL to make the choice themselves as to whether they'd receive Christ....but it is another discussion. I suppose it'd be best to get back on topic.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Rockson View Post



      Yeah you're right! God chose to ALLOW beings with FREE WILL to make the choice themselves as to whether they'd receive Christ....but it is another discussion. I suppose it'd be best to get back on topic.
      You're Pelagian I see... You know that is a heresy. You're in company with Roman Catholic, Mormon, and a whole host of other cults...
      Last edited by Yodas_Prodigy; 01-06-19, 12:32 AM.
      Be light. Share The Gospel. Grow the Kingdom...

      Comment


      • #18
        Yeah you're right! God chose to ALLOW beings with FREE WILL to make the choice themselves as to whether they'd receive Christ....but it is another discussion. I suppose it'd be best to get back on topic.

        Originally posted by Yodas_Prodigy View Post

        You're Pelagian I see... You know that is a heresy. You're in company with Roman Catholic, Mormon, and a whole host of other cults...
        I said the choice NOT the influence! I've always believed God moves upon ALL sinners to convict, encourage and inspire men to recieve Christ but it is THEY who make the decision. Of course you don't even believe that for you're into Calvinism.

        And seeing you're quick to think less of me with all due respect let me ask you... why do you use "YODA" as your tag name here! Sure it's your right to do so I don't question that but I do question for someone wanting to make an impression of promoting the purity of godly things that you would slant towards the promotion of Eastern religion things.... Hinduism and Buddhism and the like. I'm sure you won't deny that MANY people perceive Star Wars to be that very thing? So you've asked me what company I'm in? Why should I not be asking you the same question?

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Rockson View Post
          Yeah you're right! God chose to ALLOW beings with FREE WILL to make the choice themselves as to whether they'd receive Christ....but it is another discussion. I suppose it'd be best to get back on topic.

          I said the choice NOT the influence! I've always believed God moves upon ALL sinners to convict, encourage and inspire men to recieve Christ but it is THEY who make the decision. Of course you don't even believe that for you're into Calvinism.
          How is that Choice made? And is it offered to all people?

          Originally posted by Rockson View Post
          And seeing you're quick to think less of me with all due respect let me ask you... why do you use "YODA" as your tag name here! Sure it's your right to do so I don't question that but I do question for someone wanting to make an impression of promoting the purity of godly things that you would slant towards the promotion of Eastern religion things.... Hinduism and Buddhism and the like. I'm sure you won't deny that MANY people perceive Star Wars to be that very thing? So you've asked me what company I'm in? Why should I not be asking you the same question?
          Hmmmmm... You were offended and now you want to offend? Typical WOF... You are not the first to ask or imply such things... I am both a Chess Player and enjoy the Star Wars saga... I connected the idea of a Chess Prodigy and Star Wars together and got YodasProdigy... Your co-conspirator, Beachie, used to make similar statements... I think my theology clearly rejects Hinduism and Buddhism... BTW, I have gotten many compliments from good Christian people regarding my user name. Usually, the only ones who take issue are those who have gotten their theological lunch handed to them by me...
          Be light. Share The Gospel. Grow the Kingdom...

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Tallen View Post
            wof tells us that they aren't sinners, all things new to wof means their nature changes from a sinner to a non-sinner, they are divinely created beings. They are made a fundamentally changed being with a divine born spirit. How many conversations have we had in the past where wof have defended these ideas?

            If that's the case, and a born again human nature is brand new, and has become divine creation..., why are wof babies sinners with a fallen nature? If all things are new, we would have to assume then, that wof would consider the reproductive system as part of "all" and the babies born to a wof man and wife would be born with an unfallen whole complete spirit, soul and body. Just like Adam before the fall.

            How is it possible that wof babies aren't born, born again, spiritually complete and whole. Or is the reproductive process not included in all things new?

            Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
            2 Corinthians 5:17 KJVA



            BTW, when you agreed to the Traducian view, that we are propagated by our parents and that God doesn't need to create each soul, you've created a paradox in your theology. wof teaches us that each species creates after it's own kind. Dogs beget dogs, cats beget cats..., and so forth. If that is the case, why don't born again human's create born again human's after their own species?
            I still remember the WoF gal that was here probably a DECADE ago, who lived an Absolutely SINLESS LIFE!!! and taught her Kids to HATE THEIR GRANDPARENTS, because they didn't agree with her theology.

            You can't make this stuff up!!!!!!

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Yodas_Prodigy View Post

              You're Pelagian I see... You know that is a heresy. You're in company with Roman Catholic, Mormon, and a whole host of other cults...
              I always love this one! Pelagian! Called "heretic" by the Pope of Rome, as Luther likewise was...only Pelagius didn't start a movement. I wonder what is more revealing: to have an accuser call one a "pelagian" as if that were a bad thing, or the obvious truth that the accuser agrees with Rome.
              Pete

              ~(8-[)}<><===> (flames of new anointing, béret, non-prescription glasses to help critics and their ilk feel more secure, mustache, beard...and tie.) I serve a God who walked this earth for thirty years before He did a single miracle.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Tallen View Post

                Second time you have avoided answering the question. It is expected. I understand your answer, and I understand my question..., and I understand why you didn't answer my question.

                TYFYT
                If a man is saved by grace through faith...how is that man's son saved? Hmmm? Third time you've deliberately obfuscated, because the answer is so obvious. Here's what you hate to hear and for reasons unfathomable refuse to accept: WoF is Christianity, characterized in good stead by Paul and the apostles, and all the teachings of scripture, New and Old...as prone to error and correction as any disciple beginning with Peter.
                Pete

                ~(8-[)}<><===> (flames of new anointing, béret, non-prescription glasses to help critics and their ilk feel more secure, mustache, beard...and tie.) I serve a God who walked this earth for thirty years before He did a single miracle.

                Comment


                • #23
                  That is an interesting question! I use to be in the WoF camp but as I've grown older, and read the word for myself, I have then left their ideas and doctrines behind. This is a great question for me to ask some of my old friends. I'd be interested in their response. They will not have an answer, unless they are able to butcher a verse out of context but at least it may get them to think about what they believe...

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by KNHenderson View Post
                    That is an interesting question! I use to be in the WoF camp but as I've grown older, and read the word for myself, I have then left their ideas and doctrines behind. This is a great question for me to ask some of my old friends. I'd be interested in their response. They will not have an answer, unless they are able to butcher a verse out of context but at least it may get them to think about what they believe...
                    KNH, happy post #1 !!
                    Phynerk
                    " Getting a straight answer from a Word Of Faith'er is like nailing Jello to a wall." MRCPU

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

                      I still remember the WoF gal that was here probably a DECADE ago, who lived an Absolutely SINLESS LIFE!!!
                      Oh come on Bob! What's your point in bringing something like that up? Are you trying to say that's a typical way of thinking among Word of Faith believers? I've been around word of faith type believers for about 40 years, 1 year short of it and have never heard any wof believer EVER claim that they've lived an absolute sinless life! If someone came on here that claimed that they were well they were a simple minded, deceived individual which of course you're find among Reformed, Baptists, Assembly of God and the list can go on and on!

                      and taught her Kids to HATE THEIR GRANDPARENTS, because they didn't agree with her theology.
                      And seeing you're wanting to categorize this as a word of faith believer than you're trying to insinuate it's typical of this type of believer? Baloney! And I think you know it is so why do you do it?

                      You can't make this stuff up!!!!!!
                      Well I'm sorry Bob but I see what it seems like you're insinuating what a group of believers (Word of Faith) can prone to be like is VERY MADE UP. Now if that's NOT what you've intended to do than I apologize. But if it is my statement stands. I do appreciate you may have seen a great deal BUT so have I. I assure you I'm not a new kid on the block when it comes to observing things either so I won't be moved nor should I by anyone who wants to reply to me in an aggressive manner, just so you know.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by KNHenderson View Post
                        That is an interesting question! I use to be in the WoF camp but as I've grown older, and read the word for myself, I have then left their ideas and doctrines behind. This is a great question for me to ask some of my old friends. I'd be interested in their response. They will not have an answer, unless they are able to butcher a verse out of context but at least it may get them to think about what they believe...
                        The answer to this my friend is in my post #13 and I didn't have to butcher ANYTHING. If you left and have forsaken the basic insights that what God's move of the wof tried to teach you I sincerely feel sadness towards you and would encourage you to re-examine your positions. For the first 4 years of my Christian experience I was defeated, depressed with no spiritual victory.

                        When I began to learn of the basic things of wof, knowing who and what I was IN CHRIST which I can say wasn't really being taught me in evangelical circles I experienced breakthroughs and victories like never before. Not psychological or mental things of just being positive but manifestation of the actual glory of God in my life.

                        Nothing absolutely nothing can make me go back and claim these things aren't so. Can there be some things that people get off into an extreme. Sure, I acknowledge I believe I've seen that but the basic insights which God was really trying to get across to people to begin with should never be thrown away.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Rockson View Post

                          Oh come on Bob! What's your point in bringing something like that up? Are you trying to say that's a typical way of thinking among Word of Faith believers?
                          Oooh! touched a nerve!!! Nope it's not everyday Typical, but it's not THAT UNKNOWN either, and since MUCH of popular / toxic "Word of Faith" is based on PRESUMPTION, and "Ritual behavior", it's just something that happens.

                          Local to me (in St.Mary's Ohio, back in the '70s) was an operation run by Hobart Freeman called the "Glory Barn" in Warsaw Indiana with satellite churches all over Eastern Indiana, and Western Ohio. They were SERIOUSLY "Word of Faith" oriented.

                          It wouldn't even be POSSIBLE for that church to exist in 2019, since to be a member you HAD TO get rid of ALL YOUR INSURANCE, and were not permitted to EVER seek medical assistance (since God was your healer), or take drugs of any sort including over the counter stuff. they killed over 100 of their people (mostly in pregnancy related issues. Oh, and it killed Hobart himself because of a completely TREATABLE leg infection that he had been "Healed by faith" of.

                          One relative of a personal friend had a son that became ill, and they stayed "in FAITH" for his healing, but he kept getting worse - until the father buckled and took him to the e-room - too late. And his "Church family" then accused him of MURDERING HIS SON with his "lack of FAITH".

                          THAT'S the "WoF" I'm familiar with in Western Ohio, and lived with for over a decade. IF You've had a better experience, good for you. There IS a BIBLICAL Word of Faith (Heb 11:1, Romans 10:17, Mark 11:22-24), but in my personal experience, what you run into in "Faith" churches is mostly "Word of Presumption".

                          I've been around word of faith type believers for about 40 years, 1 year short of it and have never heard any wof believer EVER claim that they've lived an absolute sinless life!
                          My experience is quite the reverse. Over the last 55 years I've run into all SORTS of wierd birds.

                          And seeing you're wanting to categorize this as a word of faith believer
                          I'm "Categorizing" nothing. She was a self proclaimed WoFer - Admittedly from the Lunatic fringe.
                          Last edited by Bob Carabbio; 01-10-19, 12:26 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Rockson View Post

                            The answer to this my friend is in my post #13 and I didn't have to butcher ANYTHING. If you left and have forsaken the basic insights that what God's move of the wof tried to teach you I sincerely feel sadness towards you and would encourage you to re-examine your positions. For the first 4 years of my Christian experience I was defeated, depressed with no spiritual victory.

                            When I began to learn of the basic things of wof, knowing who and what I was IN CHRIST which I can say wasn't really being taught me in evangelical circles I experienced breakthroughs and victories like never before. Not psychological or mental things of just being positive but manifestation of the actual glory of God in my life.

                            Nothing absolutely nothing can make me go back and claim these things aren't so. Can there be some things that people get off into an extreme. Sure, I acknowledge I believe I've seen that but the basic insights which God was really trying to get across to people to begin with should never be thrown away.
                            Rockson, Thanks for the welcome! As you stated certain wof teachings get off into the extreme. I am a Spirit filled, pray in the Spirit (and pray in tongues), believe in miracles Christian. Faith does play a role in the Christian walk but wof has morphed into something completely diff. I grew up wof in the 80's and 90's and have seen it turn into a way for men to take advantage of people for monetary gain. It also has a lot of superstition and dives into the spiritual realm and people speak of things in which they do not understand. Yes not all of them are bad and have a true faith in Christ but so many have itching ears and majority of them that I have been involved with don't read the word and allow the Spirit to teach them. When I discuss certain doctrine with wof believers they always say, " Well so and so says this, or so and so says that" but I want to hear you say what the word of God says and not take his word out of context.

                            My main concern with wof is that FAITH becomes their God. Mark 11:22 Jesus said "Have faith in God" he did not say have faith in faith. Again not all wof do this but if you can be honest with it, you will see it's all about what you are doing and how much faith you have. Along with faith they teach for gain. If you are sick or poor then you do not have faith. Not to mention the hypocrisy if they themselves get sick or God forbid get cancer the first thing they do is run to the doctor! I've seen it time and time again. The bible does teach prosperity but it has a lot more to do with spiritual not monetary. We are to be content not covet what we don't have. The only ones that are rich are the ones preaching it and taking all the money from those who need healing.

                            Just because you have seen miracles or because something seemed to have work that is never a reason to elevate it above the word of God. Jesus warned us against false teachers who perform signs and wonders. My favorite is how they mishandle the word anointed. Even better is how they claim to be anointed. Matthew 24:5 Jesus said, "many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." Christ literally means anointed. Many come in his name saying I am anointed! Deut 13 1-4 If a prophet or someone who has dreams arises among you and proclaims a sign or wonder to you, 2 and that sign or wonder he has promised you comes about, but he says, ‘Let us follow other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us worship them,’ 3 do not listen to that prophet’s words or to that dreamer. For the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul. 4 You must follow the Lord your God and fear Him. You must keep His commands and listen to His voice; you must worship Him and remain faithful to Him. Wof will teach you about a God who is a genie in a lamp and give you all that you desire in this world IF you have enough faith. I'm sorry but that's Satan!

                            I do believe some wof people mean well but overall if you hold it to the scripture without taking it out of context it falls on its face. Wof only works if you do not understand Greek and Hebrew.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Hey, KN,

                              Welcome to what I find to be one of the most enlightening and entertaining forums on CARM...As I practice WoF apologetics here, let me make a couple of things clear, because I see you might agree: WoF is a system of hermeneutics that begins at rock level: Believe God, obey His commandments. People who have espoused WoF hermeneutics are, like every proponent of Christianity, known by their fruits not their claims. Folks who use WoF to enrich themselves are so clearly spoken of by Paul to Timothy, that we do not need to defend them. If they believe that godliness is a means of gain, they err.

                              Originally posted by KNHenderson View Post

                              Rockson, Thanks for the welcome! As you stated certain wof teachings get off into the extreme. I am a Spirit filled, pray in the Spirit (and pray in tongues), believe in miracles Christian. Faith does play a role in the Christian walk but wof has morphed into something completely diff. I grew up wof in the 80's and 90's and have seen it turn into a way for men to take advantage of people for monetary gain. It also has a lot of superstition and dives into the spiritual realm and people speak of things in which they do not understand. Yes not all of them are bad and have a true faith in Christ but so many have itching ears and majority of them that I have been involved with don't read the word and allow the Spirit to teach them. When I discuss certain doctrine with wof believers they always say, " Well so and so says this, or so and so says that" but I want to hear you say what the word of God says and not take his word out of context.
                              I'm wary of those who claim to be WoF, and know nothing about the scripture they claim to believe.

                              Those who quote Hagin are not WoF...they're Haginites...not necessarily Christian.

                              My main concern with wof is that FAITH becomes their God. Mark 11:22 Jesus said "Have faith in God" he did not say have faith in faith.
                              That's a cliche argument that is actually meaningless. In those who err faith is a catchword...like a mantra, mostly because they do not know the meaning of faith. There is absolutely no possibility of having "faith in one's faith". To have faith, you mirror Abraham, who heard God and took Him at His Word. Abraham defines biblical faith, which begins with the Word and the author also perfects it. The Word, as Jesus explains, comes as a seed into our hearts, and grows as a mustard tree, until others take refuge in it. You have faith if you believe it, and none if you doubt. Simple as that.

                              If you know Greek, you know that Jesus did not say, "Have faith in God..." Mark's Greek says, "echete pistin theou," using a genitive of quality, not possession. It's not God's faith we're told to have, or faith "in" God (there is no preposition en)...but faith like God's...a faith which hears the promise, and immediately arrests all argument against the promise. We are told that as many as be the promises of God, they are all "Yes" in Christ Jesus, and so the "Amen" can be spoken. Two things are implied here: first the promise is ours...and second...we have license to begin to pray until that promise manifests itself as ours.

                              Hence, to have "more" faith, you merely need to know and believe more promises...Peter describes them as many and precious, by which we become partakers of His divine nature.


                              Again not all wof do this but if you can be honest with it, you will see it's all about what you are doing and how much faith you have.
                              Again...how do you quantify faith? Did Joseph lack faith in Pharaoh's dungeon? The seed was surely planted in his heart, but no one would have suspected him of having faith, and yet...Pharaoh's right hand was only two dreams away.


                              Along with faith they teach for gain. If you are sick or poor then you do not have faith. Not to mention the hypocrisy if they themselves get sick or God forbid get cancer the first thing they do is run to the doctor! I've seen it time and time again. The bible does teach prosperity but it has a lot more to do with spiritual not monetary. We are to be content not covet what we don't have. The only ones that are rich are the ones preaching it and taking all the money from those who need healing.
                              This is true...and WoF has no monopoly on error. I like to say that the bible teaches on prosperity, but only in terms of Stewardship...and we're responsible for what we've been given: those with more, much more, and those with less that much less...


                              Just because you have seen miracles or because something seemed to have work that is never a reason to elevate it above the word of God. Jesus warned us against false teachers who perform signs and wonders. My favorite is how they mishandle the word anointed. Even better is how they claim to be anointed. Matthew 24:5 Jesus said, "many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." Christ literally means anointed. Many come in his name saying I am anointed!
                              This is excellent. I agree, and so few see it. Thank you.


                              Deut 13 1-4 If a prophet or someone who has dreams arises among you and proclaims a sign or wonder to you, 2 and that sign or wonder he has promised you comes about, but he says, ‘Let us follow other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us worship them,’ 3 do not listen to that prophet’s words or to that dreamer. For the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul. 4 You must follow the Lord your God and fear Him. You must keep His commands and listen to His voice; you must worship Him and remain faithful to Him. Wof will teach you about a God who is a genie in a lamp and give you all that you desire in this world IF you have enough faith. I'm sorry but that's Satan!

                              I do believe some wof people mean well but overall if you hold it to the scripture without taking it out of context it falls on its face. Wof only works if you do not understand Greek and Hebrew.
                              I know they are not all WoF who call themselves WoF, and since extravagant and WoF seem to always get associated together, I'm far more cognizant and appreciative of the quiet voices who come, teach...and disappear again, leaving the recognizable fragrance of the Word behind...and the memories of a good friendship.

                              Great post. Thanks.
                              Pete

                              ~(8-[)}<><===> (flames of new anointing, béret, non-prescription glasses to help critics and their ilk feel more secure, mustache, beard...and tie.) I serve a God who walked this earth for thirty years before He did a single miracle.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Replied in wrong post, not sure how to delete so changed post to say...tbeachhead I agree with what you said and I do not know Greek or Hebrew fluently only from my own studies and by the Holy Spirit do I even know some things when it comes to them but I do remember what you said "Faith like God's" so good!
                                Last edited by KNHenderson; 01-10-19, 04:19 PM.

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