Announcement

Collapse

Message to all users:

https://carm.org/forum-rules

Super Member Subscription
https://carm.org/carm-super-members-banner-ad-signup

As most of you are aware, we had a crash to forums and were down for over two days a while back. We did have to do an upgrade to the vbulletin software to fix the forums and that has created changes, VB no longer provide the hybrid or threaded forums. There are some issues/changes to the forums we are not able to fix or change. Also note the link address change, please let friends and posters know of the changed link to the forums. For now this is the only link available, https://forums.carm.org/vb5/ but if clicking on forum on carm.org homepage it will now send you to this link. (edited to add https: now working.

Again, we are working through some of the posting and viewing issues to learn how to post with the changes, you will have to check and test the different features, icons that have changed. You may also want to go to profile settings,since many of the notifications, information in profile, also to update/edit your avatar by clicking on avatar space, pull down arrow next to login for user settings.

Edit to add "How to read forums, to make it easier."
Pull down arrow next to login name upper right select profile, or user settings when page opens to profile,select link in tab that says Account. Then select/choose options, go down to Conversation Detail Options, Select Display mode Posts, NOT Activity, that selection of Posts will make the pages of discussions go to last post on last page rather than out of order that happens if you choose activity threads. Then be sure to go to bottom and select SAVE Changes in your profile options. You can then follow discussions by going through the pages, to the last page having latest responses. Then click on the other links Privacy, Notifications, to select viewing options,the forums get easier if you open all the tabs or links in your profile, user settings and select options. To join Super Member, pull down arrow next to login name, select User Settings and then click on tab/link at top that says Subscriptions.

Thank you for your patience and God Bless.

Diane S
https://carm.org/forum-rules
See more
See less

wof and their sinning children

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by KNHenderson View Post

    As you stated certain wof teachings get off into the extreme.
    And so does Non-Word-of-Faith teaching which sometimes gets off from what Jesus (God) has revealed to the church!

    Faith does play a role in the Christian walk but wof has morphed into something completely diff.
    Whatever excesses there are in ANY movement needs to be adjusted.

    It also has a lot of superstition and dives into the spiritual realm and people speak of things in which they do not understand.
    YES....a ditch on one side of the road. But there's another ditch! There's the ditch where Non Word of Faith WON'T acknowledge some basic things. You brought up the spiritual realm not I. Let's talk about it for a moment. How many times do you hear non word of faith believers EVER TODAY even acknowledge that the spirit realm many times needs to be dealt with to get people healed or delivered? How many times? Not much. Sadly it seems the Jews in Jesus day who didn't even know the gospel had more of a understanding of spiritual reality that needed to be dealt with than many modern day Christians. OK let's look at a few verses....

    And when Jesus saw that a crowd came running together, he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “You mute and deaf spirit, I command you, come out of him and never enter him again.” Mark 9:25

    And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every affliction. Matt 10:1

    And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit; And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not. He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me. And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming. And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him?.............................When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him. And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead. Mark 9:14,26


    You know these Bible verses and ones like it are steered away from even being considered as worthy of study. To many they sweep them it seems under the rug. Some modern clergy have even gone as far to say that the people in Christ day just didn't understand these things were just physical afflictions. And how many in what I'll call the strong Evangelical groups will even talk this way anymore? Are there extreme things among charismatics or from wof ? I suppose. But let's not be so ignorant to say the non wof hasn't been just as extreme in rejecting the clear revealings of truth about this subject and others as well. So I don't throw out some of the basic truths held wof. For the very reason that they still have the intestinal fortitude to still believe these things I admire. I wish I could see this in the whole Christian community.


    Yes not all of them are bad and have a true faith in Christ but so many have itching ears and majority of them that I have been involved with don't read the word and allow the Spirit to teach them.
    Anybody who runs away from the balance of scripture can be said to have that. And if you're referring to wof as people as ones who adhere to a mere positive message of positive thinking not based on who we are In Christ Jesus, the power of the Name of Jesus and the blood well quite frankly I don't view such ones as really wof.


    When I discuss certain doctrine with wof believers they always say, " Well so and so says this, or so and so says that" but I want to hear you say what the word of God says and not take his word out of context.
    Ha. Well I'm going to do that very thing right now and refer to what one said. But you KNOW if indeed you were following wof teaching that one's like K Hagin ALWAYS told people NOT TO DO THAT. People will though but you can't make that an exclusive problem merely because some wof people can fall into that. Now without contradiction myself there is a place if someone would like to share a book or teaching with another there's nothing wrong with a Christian giving a quote from say Billy Graham or other Bible teachers in some discussions but the foundation of beliefs must be of course the word of God.

    (more later)


    Last edited by Rockson; 01-11-19, 03:56 AM.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by KNHenderson View Post
      Replied in wrong post, not sure how to delete so changed post to say...tbeachhead I agree with what you said and I do not know Greek or Hebrew fluently only from my own studies and by the Holy Spirit do I even know some things when it comes to them but I do remember what you said "Faith like God's" so good!
      Thanks...bottom line is simple: Don't ditch the paradigm because so many have taken the principles for personal profit. God voice is still and small...and His Word still divides between soul and spirit, despite the claim that these are not two...and indivisible.
      Pete

      ~(8-|)**<><===> (New anointing, béret, non-prescription glasses to help critics feel more secure, mustache, beard...and tie.) I serve a God who walked this earth, for thirty years before He did a single miracle.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Tallen View Post
        wof tells us that they aren't sinners, all things new to wof means their nature changes from a sinner to a non-sinner, they are divinely created beings. They are made a fundamentally changed being with a divine born spirit. How many conversations have we had in the past where wof have defended these ideas?

        If that's the case, and a born again human nature is brand new, and has become divine creation..., why are wof babies sinners with a fallen nature? If all things are new, we would have to assume then, that wof would consider the reproductive system as part of "all" and the babies born to a wof man and wife would be born with an unfallen whole complete spirit, soul and body. Just like Adam before the fall.

        How is it possible that wof babies aren't born, born again, spiritually complete and whole. Or is the reproductive process not included in all things new?

        Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
        2 Corinthians 5:17 KJVA



        BTW, when you agreed to the Traducian view, that we are propagated by our parents and that God doesn't need to create each soul, you've created a paradox in your theology. wof teaches us that each species creates after it's own kind. Dogs beget dogs, cats beget cats..., and so forth. If that is the case, why don't born again human's create born again human's after their own species?
        Foolish question if you ask me. Its tuff getting old.

        Without Love we are nothing more than noise makers.

        Comment


        • #34
          Right, I should have been more clear by saying I have since left the BAD doctrine and teachings of BAD wof teachers but have not abandon what the bible says about faith. I do not subscribe to "word of faith" our attribute knowledge of faith principles to the wof movement. The Holy Spirit gets all the glory for revealing any truth to man concerning His word.

          Yes all denominations have a ditch on either side. There is a straight and narrow tho. Just because others have gone off track is no excuse for any other denomination to. As much as you try to get away from labels or denominational groups people tend to label you based on what you believe. I simple wish to be a good ambassador of Christ and to continue to walk in the spirit and allow him to teach me.

          For those of us who do pray in the spirit there is a yearning for all believers to receive bc we understand its value and the intimacy it brings in your walk with Christ. Paul gave thanks to God for praying in tongues more than all the Corinthians. None of us will be 100% right. We will always be ever learning but that's one of the hopes we look forward to in the return of our Lord. He will teach us all things and rule in righteousness! I can hardly wait until that day but while we wait we must speak the words of our Father and allow the Spirit to draw more people to Christ. The harvest is abundant but the laborers are few. Just because I believe in the gifts and miracles does not make me wof, Pentecostal, or Charismatic, It simply makes me a believer in Christ.

          I'm happy to have stumbled upon the forums and look forward to many great conversations and intriguing thoughts to follow.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by spokenword View Post
            Foolish question if you ask me. Its tuff getting old.
            There are no foolish questions only fools. But without questions how can a fool learn?

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by KNHenderson View Post
              My main concern with wof is that FAITH becomes their God.
              And my concern is that non-wof minimiizes it's importance sets it off to the side pretty much rejecting the truth of "But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord." Jm 1:6,7 I want to see people receive from the Lord, and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you do as well but you can't throw off faith and how God defines it and how we're to walk in it and express it.

              Mark 11:22 Jesus said "Have faith in God" he did not say have faith in faith.
              He really said there "Have the faith of God" or "Have the God kind of faith" and you see that demonstrated with the first word of the next verse being "FOR"

              "And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.FOR verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith." Mk 11:22,23

              J
              esus was saying to them the Faith of God or the God Kind of Faith is believing things in your heart and confessing them with your mouth. Obviously one should be able to see this in Rom 10:10 as well.....one believes in his heart unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

              Mark 11:22 Jesus said "Have faith in God" he did not say have faith in faith.
              Well.....I think you can in a sense say rightly they have faith in faith. The object of course is God but if one is saying they have faith in the God kind of Faith or the way that FAITH works of how God outlined it I see nothing wrong in saying one has faith in faith. (depending on how it's meant) Another way to illustrate....I had an electrician at my home the other day so let's go with this. Imagine God is an electrician but he's also the full ability and power.

              He comes to your home and shows you however that for he power to properly flow in you and through you certain principles need to be adhered to. That's what Jesus was teaching them.....when people have heard the word if they're choosing to believe God is not a liar than they have faith. There problem though is that they need to learn how to release it and make it active, and that is believing in your heart and saying with your mouth....that's the methodology of how it works. Can't one therefore say they have faith in the methodology? Why shouldn't they? It's Jesus who shared it.

              Again not all wof do this but if you can be honest with it, you will see it's all about what you are doing and how much faith you have.
              Well it's my position that if people have been shared the scriptures on absolute essential Bible truths than they do have great faith. Having the word if they believe God keeps his word and they can't be shaken from that position than how can that not be great faith? Consider if an unsaved Centurion (at the time) Jesus said had great faith than why could it not be said of God's children enlightened with the new covenant?

              I grew up wof in the 80's and 90's and have seen it turn into a way for men to take advantage of people for monetary gain.
              Yes some have went down that road. There always has been from Day 1 of Christianity. But always remember it's possible that some don't just teach for gain but go into the ministry for gain. If in their heart they're thinking being clergy can be a good career which can afford them a good living than why couldn't that be considered being just as bad that is when it comes to motives? My point is all have to keep in check these things.

              I would suggest this too if people are going to point fingers at another and speak against them for what they consider to be wrong conduct fine...there might be a scriptural place to do this....but the individual doing so better make sure they're a person of great prayer and be speaking by revelation in the spirit in regard to what they perceive to be wrong doing. One might some day be shocked to find that the other was moved by God and allowed to use some finances a certain way to get the gospel out faster and in a more adequate way. We saw this back in the day where ANYONE using video, television in any way it was considered a waste of money. I see most of all Ministries, wof, or not use modern technology today to help in spreading the message.

              Just because you have seen miracles or because something seemed to have work that is never a reason to elevate it above the word of God.
              Yes KN but you're insinuating when I've shared my experienced victories as, "Not psychological or mental things of just being positive but manifestation of the actual glory of God in my life." it seems you might be suggesting I probably haven't. Well God knows the truth of that and I suppose there's no way of convincing you if you have no confidence in anything I've said. God knows though and I can live with that.

              My favorite is how they mishandle the word anointed. Even better is how they claim to be anointed. Matthew 24:5 Jesus said, "many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." Christ literally means anointed. Many come in his name saying I am anointed!

              How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. Acts 10:38

              Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath
              anointed us, is God; 2 Cor 1:21



              Strong's Concordance

              chrió: to anoint
              Original Word: χρίω
              Part of Speech: Verb
              Transliteration: chrió
              Phonetic Spelling: (khree'-o)
              Definition: to anoint
              Usage: I anoint, consecrate by anointing.

              If I'm reading this correctly it's the same Greek word "chrio" for both....Christ was anointed and so are we.

              Comment


              • #37
                Rockson it sound as if you have had to defend yourself one too many times. If I take issue with wof it does not mean I am against faith or sound biblical teachings. You seem to separate into two categories only: WOF and NON-WOF. That just simply isn't true.

                I do not subscribe to wof but I most def believe in faith, I speak in tongues, I've had miracles and healing take place as the Spirit wills in my ministry and I am sensitive to the Spirits leading and our Lords voice. None of this takes place from being part of wof but by being a follower of Christ.

                I by no mean insinuated that your experience were not real or that you based them on your knowledge of God. I only offered the warning that these things are not to elevate themselves above the word of God. You may find in time we have a lot in common. Those are the things I'd love to talk with you about. Rather than allow a wedge to come between two believers it's better to find our common ground in which we are united in Christ.

                The ear has a diff function than the eye and the hands than the feet. But if we strive to become one body the enemy has no where or nothing to work with. It is his goal to divide and conquer. It is our goal to unify and be of one mind. This doesn't mean we have to agree on everything but please do not feel the need to defend wof or yourself for what you believe. We should be able to give an answer for what we believe but it sounds like you know how to hear the Holy Spirit so I know you have the same yearning I have that all people come to the knowledge and understanding of Christ and that believers would be victorious in their walk accompanied with the gifts of the Spirit.

                Comment


                • #38
                  How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. Acts 10:38

                  Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath
                  anointed us, is God; 2 Cor 1:21



                  Strong's Concordance

                  chrió: to anoint
                  Original Word: χρίω
                  Part of Speech: Verb
                  Transliteration: chrió
                  Phonetic Spelling: (khree'-o)
                  Definition: to anoint
                  Usage: I anoint, consecrate by anointing.

                  If I'm reading this correctly it's the same Greek word "chrio" for both....Christ was anointed and so are we.
                  [/QUOTE]

                  Strongs is a great resource but shouldn't be the only one you use when trying to understand a different language. But do you know what it means to be anointed? Does that mean you can be anointed to play the piano? Or anointed to sing? WoF does not understand what anointed means and confuses it with a gift or talent. So many other denominations do the same.

                  I'm sure you've heard "the anointing breaks the yoke" but did you know this is not what the original Hebrew says. It is a Hebrew idiom that the fat breaks the yoke. The animal has become so fat that his yoke has broken off. The Hebrew word in this passage looks similar to anoint but it is not the same word. Yet many Christians say this constantly that the anointing breaks the yoke as if it is our power that breaks spiritual strongholds or sickness.
                  Last edited by KNHenderson; 01-11-19, 06:57 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #39


                    Originally posted by KNHenderson View Post
                    Rockson it sound as if you have had to defend yourself one too many times. If I take issue with wof it does not mean I am against faith or sound biblical teachings. You seem to separate into two categories only: WOF and NON-WOF. That just simply isn't true.

                    I do not subscribe to wof but I most def believe in faith, I speak in tongues, I've had miracles and healing take place as the Spirit wills in my ministry and I am sensitive to the Spirits leading and our Lords voice. None of this takes place from being part of wof but by being a follower of Christ.

                    I by no mean insinuated that your experience were not real or that you based them on your knowledge of God. I only offered the warning that these things are not to elevate themselves above the word of God. You may find in time we have a lot in common. Those are the things I'd love to talk with you about. Rather than allow a wedge to come between two believers it's better to find our common ground in which we are united in Christ.

                    The ear has a diff function than the eye and the hands than the feet. But if we strive to become one body the enemy has no where or nothing to work with. It is his goal to divide and conquer. It is our goal to unify and be of one mind. This doesn't mean we have to agree on everything but please do not feel the need to defend wof or yourself for what you believe. We should be able to give an answer for what we believe but it sounds like you know how to hear the Holy Spirit so I know you have the same yearning I have that all people come to the knowledge and understanding of Christ and that believers would be victorious in their walk accompanied with the gifts of the Spirit.
                    One of the tools of WOF is to point to some something opposite of their excesses... Apologist says, "WOF goes extreme on the Holy Spirit." WOF Apologist responds, "Non-WOF Churches don't even acknowledge the Holy Spirit." Apologist says, "WOF thinks everyone should get healed." WOF Apologist says, "NON-WOF Churches don't believe in healing at all."

                    The WOF Apologist has to go to extremes to show that there are imbalances on both sides....

                    Other tools of the WOF Apologist is to call you names such as:

                    Faithless
                    Bitter
                    Unbeliever
                    Demon Possessed
                    Pharisee

                    One WOF apologist will accuse you of the very method he uses...

                    Word Faith hates scholarship. They are against seminary... They have called it Cemetery. Unless it's Rhema... They don't like commentaries. They hate systematic theology books. If you know Koine Greek or Hebrew, your opinion doesn't mean anything because you aren't a professor... They want to forget most of the Creeds and Confessions...

                    They do like a Strongs Concordance and the Amplified Bible...

                    To help you focus, WOF has these five unique doctrines:

                    1) Jesus Died Spiritually and had to be Born Again
                    2) Man is a little god
                    3) Confession is your possession
                    4) Christians should be healthy and live a long time
                    5) Christians should be wealthy

                    They re-define words such as incarnation, first born, and faith...

                    All Word Faith error flows from 1 and 2...
                    Be light. Share The Gospel. Grow the Kingdom...

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Tallen View Post

                      So you don't believe scripture that say we are conceived in iniquity, that there is none righteous, no not one, and that all have sinned in Adam?

                      If a person is propagated by his/her parents..., how does a baby get an unfallen spirit from them. They both are fallen creatures. Why would they both fallen sinners make unfallen spirits? Does the imperfect create perfect spirits?
                      The "Original SIN" theology foolishness. Not to worry, though, we'll ALL willfully SIN and fall short as soon as we can figure out how to. I did.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Yodas_Prodigy View Post

                        One of the tools of WOF is to point to some something opposite of their excesses...
                        Why shouldn't they demonstrate that they're critics aren't without making mistakes themselves. The fact is with EVERY GROUP there are things that need brought in order and things aren't totally perfect. You call it a tool? I call it merely saying some things that need to be said lest a lurker consider that YOU YOURSELF shouldn't have to answer to some things as well.

                        Apologist says, "WOF goes extreme on the Holy Spirit." WOF Apologist responds, "Non-WOF Churches don't even acknowledge the Holy Spirit."
                        So you start with I'm guessing it's your side in saying the "WOF goes extreme on the Holy Spirit." and that's fine and reasonable although within that statement IS MUCH presumption but then you turn around and condemn a WOF apologist for doing the same?

                        WOF Apologist says, "NON-WOF Churches don't believe in healing at all."
                        All right now prove it! Give me the quote where a wof type of teacher has said non-wof believers don't believe in healing at all? If you're in a subtle referring to me I'll inform you now you're mistaken. I've spent my whole life hearing non-wof believers saying they believe God does heal today or can heal today if he wants to. Where our difference is the criteria that God generally insists upon that causes him to release his healing grace.

                        Other tools of the WOF Apologist is to call you names such as:

                        Faithless
                        Bitter
                        Unbeliever
                        Demon Possessed
                        Pharisee
                        So it seems you're wanting to think the worst of people and not the best. But ok let's go through them. FAITHLESS....could a wof person say someone is being faithless? Has anyone made such a charge against another? Perhaps so and yes they better be careful for lunging out at another with such labels BUT here's what you close the door to and that is, is it possible God in the Spirit could genuinely be reproving someone of this area of there life? Why is it that you'd think this is impossible? I acknowledge that you're a person who knows much of the scriptures.....well tell me then......what about ALL the places JESUS.....I'm talking about JESUS now rebuked, and sought to correct his disciples FOR...THEIR LACK OF FAITH? So what about that? So Yoda you mentioned, "Faithless" OK back to the scripture,

                        Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water. And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting. Matt 17: 15,21

                        So how are you going to decide? Are you going to settle in with a belief that NOBODY should ever even consider even bringing up the possibility that where the person or believer has missed it is in how they're believing? What if they're not doing what Jesus said to do and that is saying to their mountain Remove hence to yonder place (and you know the rest) What if they're not doing that? Nobody, even if they're filled with the Holy Spirit should ever tell somebody why they're missing it? And I can't stress enough I'm not talking about someone in the flesh beating someone over the head that they're not walking by faith I'm talking about one with an unction of the Spirit which I want to suggest to you many have had but nope.....current yes even evangelical thought is they will not accept ANY ONE referring to a problem with how someone is believing. NOT ALLOWED. If it was allowed with you dear brother why did you put it on your list that anyone using the term "faithless" is out of line?

                        I am curious as well at how some here teach James 1: 7-8 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

                        Are we to beat people over the head put them down and be unkind? Most certainly not! We're to be wise as serpents but harmless as doves BUT even though one must seek to be gracious and encouraging the truth of things must still be told. I think it takes intestinal fortitude to even share scriptures like the above and teach on them and why? Because people in this present generation don't want to be instructed they miss it on anything, therefore they close the door to instruction. And if you do try to teach them we'll label you as insensitive. So...if one wants the praise of men maybe they should stay away from ever suggesting another's problem might be to do with faith. As for me while I'll always seek to be kind and gracious I'll seek the praise of God over that of men anyday!






                        Last edited by Rockson; 01-12-19, 07:46 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Rockson View Post

                          Why shouldn't they demonstrate that they're critics aren't without making mistakes themselves. The fact is with EVERY GROUP there are things that need brought in order and things aren't totally perfect. You call it a tool? I call it merely saying some things that need to be said lest a lurker consider that YOU YOURSELF shouldn't have to answer to some things as well.

                          So you start with I'm guessing it's your side in saying the "WOF goes extreme on the Holy Spirit." and that's fine and reasonable although within that statement IS MUCH presumption but then you turn around and condemn a WOF apologist for doing the same?

                          All right now prove it! Give me the quote where a wof type of teacher has said non-wof believers don't believe in healing at all? If you're in a subtle referring to me I'll inform you now you're mistaken. I've spent my whole life hearing non-wof believers saying they believe God does heal today or can heal today if he wants to. Where our difference is the criteria that God generally insists upon that causes him to release his healing grace.

                          So it seems you're wanting to think the worst of people and not the best. But ok let's go through them. FAITHLESS....could a wof person say someone is being faithless? Has anyone made such a charge against another? Perhaps so and yes they better be careful for lunging out at another with such labels BUT here's what you close the door to and that is, is it possible God in the Spirit could genuinely be reproving someone of this area of there life? Why is it that you'd think this is impossible? I acknowledge that you're a person who knows much of the scriptures.....well tell me then......what about ALL the places JESUS.....I'm talking about JESUS now rebuked, and sought to correct his disciples FOR...THEIR LACK OF FAITH? So what about that? So Yoda you mentioned, "Faithless" OK back to the scripture,

                          Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water. And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting. Matt 17: 15,21

                          So how are you going to decide? Are you going to settle in with a belief that NOBODY should ever even consider even bringing up the possibility that where the person or believer has missed it is in how they're believing? What if they're not doing what Jesus said to do and that is saying to their mountain Remove hence to yonder place (and you know the rest) What if they're not doing that? Nobody, even if they're filled with the Holy Spirit should ever tell somebody why they're missing it? And I can't stress enough I'm not talking about someone in the flesh beating someone over the head that they're not walking by faith I'm talking about one with an unction of the Spirit which I want to suggest to you many have had but nope.....current yes even evangelical thought is they will not accept ANY ONE referring to a problem with how someone is believing. NOT ALLOWED. If it was allowed with you dear brother why did you put it on your list that anyone using the term "faithless" is out of line?

                          I am curious as well at how some here teach James 1: 7-8 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

                          Are we to beat people over the head put them down and be unkind? Most certainly not! We're to be wise as serpents but harmless as doves BUT even though one must seek to be gracious and encouraging the truth of things must still be told. I think it takes intestinal fortitude to even share scriptures like the above and teach on them and why? Because people in this present generation don't want to be instructed they miss it on anything, therefore they close the door to instruction. And if you do try to teach them we'll label you as insensitive. So...if one wants the praise of men maybe they should stay away from ever suggesting another's problem might be to do with faith. As for me while I'll always seek to be kind and gracious I'll seek the praise of God over that of men anyday!
                          I don't have time today to respond to your post adequately. I will summarize by saying this. After being in this forum for about 17 years and having traveled to at least one other forum, my post stands as experience.

                          I don't have to look for the worst in people. WoF shows it all of the time. They appear loving until you challenge their beliefs. One guy who was WOF came in to this forum and asked a few questions from other WOF... They thought he was a critic and lambasted him... Well, he attended Rhema and knew all of the ****** and shakers in WOF and their kids. He is no longer WOF and could clean the theological clock of those who mistreated him before...

                          Personal attacks are the mode WOF goes in to when defending their theology...

                          Pharisee! Faithless! Unbeliever! Demon Possessed! Bitter!

                          Be light. Share The Gospel. Grow the Kingdom...

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Yodas_Prodigy View Post

                            I don't have time today to respond to your post adequately. I will summarize by saying this. After being in this forum for about 17 years and having traveled to at least one other forum, my post stands as experience.
                            Experience of what?? !! That wof believers aren't as nice and kind and gracious as you? Forgive me if I'm not quick to believe your version of things. I've examined a number of your posts in a variety of threads and seen what appears many times what I consider a rather strong...too strong I think and aggressive style. Might it be that you've reaped what you've sown? I don't know. But I'm sorry I"m not choosing to believe everything you're saying. Lurkers can decide for themselves too.

                            I don't have to look for the worst in people. WoF shows it all of the time.
                            See there go right there! No giving every person the benefit of the doubt just label them as not so nice. I DON'T AGREE with your Calvinism but I don't go on here claiming you're the worst people imaginable. You do know some people are tempted to say such for the reason they view you with a mentality of being snobbish type elites in the way you think. Surely you could admit that is what some people think. So what's the answer here? How about for all to set aside the unjust and unnecessary stereotyping and just communicate with each other in the spirit of civility? Doesn't that make more sense? If not I'd suggest it's not beneficial for anybody to be on these threads.

                            They appear loving until you challenge their beliefs.
                            You statement means absolutely nothing unless we can see in what way and manner you do challenge another's beliefs. What exactly has been your style Yoda?


                            And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will. 2 Tim 2:23

                            So does your way demonstrate a sense of being gentile or patience? You might of course claim you always have been but how many of have been here for 17 years to see it? I haven't. If there's been times you've purposely chosen to be provocative then is it any wonder that yes someone might even respond to you in a inappropriate manner themselves? None of us are perfect. I'm sure you'd admit you're not, so let's not tempt one another into the place of falling into sin, as in the sin of strife. It's only the devil who wins that way.


                            One guy who was WOF came in to this forum and asked a few questions from other WOF... They thought he was a critic and lambasted him...
                            Well maybe they did and maybe they didn't. Could it be that all they were doing was challenging his beliefs like it seems you claim that's all that your side of the issues do? As you can appreciate I'm just not going to take your word on everything.

                            Well, he attended Rhema and knew all of the ****** and shakers in WOF and their kids.
                            OK Yoda now that right there! What is this ********** supposed to mean? Are you insinuating a word that you know publicly is inappropriate to use? If you're not trying to do that I apologize but is there any need to bring these discussions down to a very base level? If it wasn't inappropriate then tell us what ******* means.


                            He is no longer WOF and could clean the theological clock of those who mistreated him before...
                            Sorry I'm not quick to believe anyone was mistreated especially when you're wanting to insinuate it represents a common character trait of certain type of believers. Too much of a one sided claim for me to marginalize a great many believers. As for your referring to a former Rhema attendee who is now in it's opposition and being able to theologically clean the clocks of others perhaps that the one I saw on line who put out some of his writings. As for me I wasn't too greatly impressed with his arguments.


                            Personal attacks are the mode WOF goes in to when defending their theology...

                            Pharisee! Faithless! Unbeliever! Demon Possessed! Bitter!

                            Well OK let's examine this. Has a wof person ever claimed one was like a Pharisee? Maybe. What was the context? If it was in a context where ok let's say a wof individually genuinely fell and that other has not even an once of wanting to share grace with the fallen to see them restored and is almost gleeful and throwing stones...than well YES....Someone can be acting like a Pharisee! Faithless? Well you can read what I said about that in my last post. Unbeliever? As in what? Questioning their very salvation? If so they were wrong. If you're talking about unbeliever as in one who they consider is not believing certain things of the word as compared to them....well aren't you doing that here yourself? Demon possessed? In what context are you referring to? Bitter? Much appreciated if you'd explain yourself and thank you kindly if you would.

                            PEACE
                            Last edited by Rockson; 01-12-19, 11:54 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Rockson View Post

                              OK Yoda now that right there! What is this ********** supposed to mean? Are you insinuating a word that you know publicly is inappropriate to use? If you're not trying to do that I apologize but is there any need to bring these discussions down to a very base level? If it wasn't inappropriate then tell us what ******* means.


                              PEACE
                              The word I used was m o v e r s ... I don't know why it got ********

                              Here is a problem with WOF in this forum over the years... If a so-called critic disagrees with a WOF doctrine, it is automatically an offense...

                              I can tell you, and I posted it in thread once, that Beachie accused us of being like Rome over 500 times... He stopped after being confronted with the evidence. And, BTW, when Copeland made his alliance with the Pope, Beachie disappeared for about a year from these forums...

                              Rather than have a discussion about doctrine, they have take it personal and then gotten personal...

                              I tell yah what... Go look at my threads over in the Mormon forum right now... In many respects, they treat me now as WOF has treated me over the years... Also, take a look at my posts.... Most will pass the litmus test of being loving, from your point of view... Sure, there some harsh ones, from your point of view... Context tends to dictate the response...
                              Last edited by Yodas_Prodigy; 01-13-19, 09:26 AM.
                              Be light. Share The Gospel. Grow the Kingdom...

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Yodas_Prodigy View Post

                                The word I used was m o v e r s ... I don't know why it got ********

                                Here is a problem with WOF in this forum over the years... If a so-called critic disagrees with a WOF doctrine, it is automatically an offense...

                                I can tell you, and I posted it in thread once, that Beachie accused us of being like Rome over 500 times... He stopped after being confronted with the evidence. And, BTW, when Copeland made his alliance with the Pope, Beachie disappeared for about a year from these forums...
                                If I've told you once I've told you six million times...don't exaggerate! Five hundred times? In one thread?

                                Evidence of what? I must have missed the thread! Too bad they're all erased and G3 isn't around to cut and paste them back in! Usually, when you all go back to your ad homs, I stop posting on a thread.

                                To be like Rome, btw, you have to maintain, like John MacArthur and Rome that history and tradition are sacred, and all scripture must be interpreted from them. And when I disappeared from here, I had my own fights physically and in the public school where I work to fight (both personally and professionally...I was deliberately slandered, and it cost the district five grand in the end to 'investigate me', and I was taken to the floor, exonerated and vindicated...and then fired from teaching drama just to make sure that I'd never do what it was shown I had never done ever again), and frankly, I couldn't give you guys the time you deserved to answer posts like this. Cope's tryst with Rome was as meaningful to me in terms of WoF hermeneutics as his third jet...neither changed a jot or a tittle...despite your obvious titillation.

                                My seventh just left for CA...so my wife and I have one child of eight at home...I have more time. I'm not a troll, and I don't often get silenced or defeated by obvious, egregious and unscriptural error or presumption. Especially from folks like you, who are both consistent and likable.

                                I know you wish it was that easy!

                                I did miss the discussions here...but I needed a year to put things back in order.

                                Rather than have a discussion about doctrine, they have take it personal and then gotten personal...

                                I tell yah what... Go look at my threads over in the Mormon forum right now... In many respects, they treat me now as WOF has treated me over the years... Also, take a look at my posts.... Most will pass the litmus test of being loving, from your point of view... Sure, there some harsh ones, from your point of view... Context tends to dictate the response...
                                Last edited by tbeachhead; 01-14-19, 02:26 PM.
                                Pete

                                ~(8-|)**<><===> (New anointing, béret, non-prescription glasses to help critics feel more secure, mustache, beard...and tie.) I serve a God who walked this earth, for thirty years before He did a single miracle.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X