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When does being Rich become Sin?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by tbeachhead View Post

    What's slanderous? Nothing in my opinion. Nothing even worth noting. A moment in the long life of a man...But then...that leads to the question as to why you posted it? Because it elicits respect for Hagin? Because you wanted to speak well of him? Because you see nothing wrong?

    Obviously not...you wanted to provoke others to the slander of his ministry to which you are so easily prone. Tell me, Ted...what do you think of his behavior. State it clearly, and you'll define slander.

    Or not...stay in denial. Folks that watch your tactics will know. To us, it's clear why you have reposted a very old video. Nothing else to find fault with. The critics whole arsenal is empty when their bogeymen are dead, in jets or obsolete.

    And still WoF doctrine stands on its own. See my sig.
    tyfyt
    ---> Insert your denial here. <---

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by spokenword View Post
      To some it may appear that way. How about Gen;20:6 ? And Sara said"God made me laugh,and all who hear will laugh with me." So is laughter joyful according to the Word of God? See if you can avoid playing your games.
      Was she falling down out of control like Hagin and company? Your example goes nowhere.
      ---> Insert your denial here. <---

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Tallen View Post
        And I've refuted that very claim by pointing out David's joy doesn't justify or even compare to people fallen down drunk. And further more, it never says David was drunk in the Spirit. There is no place in scripture that supports....
        There's no scripture that supports other signs and wonders either now is there! Where did you ever read in the law of Moses that scripture supports an action like one who would come who would spit in dirt, make mud and put it in a man's eyes and tell him to go wash and be healed?

        Do you reject that it happened because you don't see the OT supported it?

        If you lived in that day and you heard about it occurring would you have said this whole thing must be foolishness! And the guy who said he was healed probably wasn't?

        And you being Calvinistic. How is it that you can't accept that God can do things through his own sovereignty without having to spell it out to you beforehand? Does God have to appease what offense might come to your mind before he does what he desires? I mean it's you who demands a scripture to prove every sign and wonder men may not even have seen as yet must have scripture validation. It is true when it comes to belief of doctrines you need scriptures. You don't find anything that demands all signs and wonders to have been explained and defined beforehand.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Rockson View Post
          There's no scripture that supports other signs and wonders either now is there!
          I'll point out the obvious at this point..., if there is no scripture to support a teaching, and it is based on personal opinion, it is nothing more than speculation and presumption.

          Especially if that speculation and presumption is refuted with scripture.

          Where did you ever read in the law of Moses that scripture supports an action like one who would come who would spit in dirt, make mud and put it in a man's eyes and tell him to go wash and be healed?
          You're obfuscating at this point.

          Do you reject that it happened because you don't see the OT supported it?
          I accept it because the scripture clearly says it. I reject your speculation and presumption because scripture no where supports it.

          Wish you could understand that.

          If you lived in that day and you heard about it occurring would you have said this whole thing must be foolishness! And the guy who said he was healed probably wasn't?
          HUH!?! If I lived in that day and the Apostle taught me that the fruit of the Spirit is in part self control..., I would have believed him.

          And you being Calvinistic. How is it that you can't accept that God can do things through his own sovereignty without having to spell it out to you beforehand? Does God have to appease what offense might come to your mind before he does what he desires? I mean it's you who demands a scripture to prove every sign and wonder men may not even have seen as yet must have scripture validation. It is true when it comes to belief of doctrines you need scriptures. You don't find anything that demands all signs and wonders to have been explained and defined beforehand.
          Really..., this is how your are going to prove Hagin's drunken behavior is biblical. My Calvinism, I'm not really a Calvinist, btw, is the basis of your doctrine of being drunk n the Spirit.

          Your trying so hard in this, that you are now way out in left field..., all you have to do is make a reasonable apologetic explaining why Hagins drunkenness is self control. Waiting in Michigan.

          ---> Insert your denial here. <---

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Tallen View Post

            I'll point out the obvious at this point..., if there is no scripture to support a teaching, and it is based on personal opinion, it is nothing more than speculation and presumption.

            Especially if that speculation and presumption is refuted with scripture.



            You're obfuscating at this point.



            I accept it because the scripture clearly says it. I reject your speculation and presumption because scripture no where supports it.

            Wish you could understand that.



            HUH!?! If I lived in that day and the Apostle taught me that the fruit of the Spirit is in part self control..., I would have believed him.



            Really..., this is how your are going to prove Hagin's drunken behavior is biblical. My Calvinism, I'm not really a Calvinist, btw, is the basis of your doctrine of being drunk n the Spirit.

            Your trying so hard in this, that you are now way out in left field..., all you have to do is make a reasonable apologetic explaining why Hagins drunkenness is self control. Waiting in Michigan.
            And this is how you’re going to prove it’s unbiblical?
            Pete

            ~(8-[)}<><===> (flames of new anointing, béret, non-prescription glasses to help critics and their ilk feel more secure, mustache, beard...and tie.) I serve a God who walked this earth, for thirty years before He did a single miracle.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by tbeachhead View Post
              And this is how you’re going to prove it’s unbiblical?
              No, it's how I am proving Rockson is unbiblical, the post wasn't addressed to you. I already have proven you unbiblical with how you read your presuppositions into the scripture and private translations you suggest are infallible, and outright denigration and disparaging great men and their work translating the scripture and submitting to people in their guild to give their scrutiny.

              Sig.
              ---> Insert your denial here. <---

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Tallen View Post

                I'll point out the obvious at this point..., if there is no scripture to support a teaching, and it is based on personal opinion, it is nothing more than speculation and presumption.

                Especially if that speculation and presumption is refuted with scripture.
                O come on! Where do you read that wof have ever declared any specific manifestation of what they believe to be of the Spirit is a teaching? You're making this stuff up. And you say refuted with scripture? What one passage you give from Gal 5 which has the words "self-control" You can go ahead and misuse that for just about anything to force people into compliance with YOUR OWN personal convictions. How about clapping ones hands in a service? Is that one losing self-control? I've seen some people who think it is!

                HUH!?! If I lived in that day and the Apostle taught me that the fruit of the Spirit is in part self control..., I would have believed him.
                I think rather what he'd say is focus on what I said the opposite of the fruits of the Spirit are THAT I REVEALED!

                (19) The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. (And now) -->But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Galatians 5:19,23

                Do you see ANYTHING in verse 19 which speaks against what's on that video? Sexual immorality? No! Impurity? No! Debauchery, idolatry, witchcraft? NO, NO, NO. So obviously you're blowing smoke. You've made up all your way of reasoning by pulling the two words out of Gal 5: 23 and it seems you delight in going around actually doing something that was warned about in the verse as being in the flesh....and here we go again..... as not yourself possibly not showing self-control .

                Consider Tallen what does the word, "dissensions" in verse 19 mean to you? Or how about the word "factions" Dissension means disagreements that lead to discord. Paul didn't say anything about a spiritual manifestation of laughter or joy overwhelming one where they almost looked drunk as out of SELF CONTROL. REAL drunkenness he's talking about is about REAL alcohol and showing lack of restraint in so drinking it which would lead to the next horrible thing....orgies. So when you delight to create disagreements within the body over issues of a spiritual manifestation which I think God would say LEAVE OFF you criticism and stop demanding people to comply to your mode of how you feel spiritual things are always to be.....failing to do so....well what is that but a lack of SELF CONTROL?

                So if you didn't think a manifestation we've talked about wasn't of the Spirit does that mean I think you're horribly wrong for you to have such an opinion. No. But it is something you might consider to put on the back burner and consider stop degrading people who aren't just like you and pray for them in love. Look I don't even think K Hagin would have been at odds with you if you stated, "Look brother I just can't see this but I do love Jesus and I know you do as well. I'm praying for you and please do the same for me!" You know what you have then? LOVE and no dissension or faction. The thing that is opposite of that is the thing you claim to detest. No self control

                KEY POINT : Being in dissension doesn't mean you believe something different. It's how you treat others in relation of what you believe which determines that. Hoping for the best that you'd see the truth in this.



                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Tallen View Post

                  No, it's how I am proving Rockson is unbiblical, the post wasn't addressed to you. I already have proven you unbiblical with how you read your presuppositions into the scripture
                  Sig.
                  So are you really trying to say the TBeachhead and I are of the same ILK? That's OK we won't be offeneded!

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Rockson View Post

                    So are you really trying to say the TBeachhead and I are of the same ILK? That's OK we won't be offeneded!
                    I'm saying that you are both misusing and misunderstanding scripture. Neither of you has established Hagin's teaching and actions are biblical.

                    Does your error make you of the same ilk?
                    Last edited by Tallen; 02-21-19, 05:24 PM.
                    ---> Insert your denial here. <---

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Rockson View Post

                      O come on! Where do you read that wof have ever declared any specific manifestation of what they believe to be of the Spirit is a teaching? You're making this stuff up. And you say refuted with scripture? What one passage you give from Gal 5 which has the words "self-control" You can go ahead and misuse that for just about anything to force people into compliance with YOUR OWN personal convictions. How about clapping ones hands in a service? Is that one losing self-control? I've seen some people who think it is!



                      I think rather what he'd say is focus on what I said the opposite of the fruits of the Spirit are THAT I REVEALED!

                      (19) The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. (And now) -->But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Galatians 5:19,23

                      Do you see ANYTHING in verse 19 which speaks against what's on that video? Sexual immorality? No! Impurity? No! Debauchery, idolatry, witchcraft? NO, NO, NO. So obviously you're blowing smoke. You've made up all your way of reasoning by pulling the two words out of Gal 5: 23 and it seems you delight in going around actually doing something that was warned about in the verse as being in the flesh....and here we go again..... as not yourself possibly not showing self-control .

                      Consider Tallen what does the word, "dissensions" in verse 19 mean to you? Or how about the word "factions" Dissension means disagreements that lead to discord. Paul didn't say anything about a spiritual manifestation of laughter or joy overwhelming one where they almost looked drunk as out of SELF CONTROL. REAL drunkenness he's talking about is about REAL alcohol and showing lack of restraint in so drinking it which would lead to the next horrible thing....orgies. So when you delight to create disagreements within the body over issues of a spiritual manifestation which I think God would say LEAVE OFF you criticism and stop demanding people to comply to your mode of how you feel spiritual things are always to be.....failing to do so....well what is that but a lack of SELF CONTROL?

                      So if you didn't think a manifestation we've talked about wasn't of the Spirit does that mean I think you're horribly wrong for you to have such an opinion. No. But it is something you might consider to put on the back burner and consider stop degrading people who aren't just like you and pray for them in love. Look I don't even think K Hagin would have been at odds with you if you stated, "Look brother I just can't see this but I do love Jesus and I know you do as well. I'm praying for you and please do the same for me!" You know what you have then? LOVE and no dissension or faction. The thing that is opposite of that is the thing you claim to detest. No self control

                      KEY POINT : Being in dissension doesn't mean you believe something different. It's how you treat others in relation of what you believe which determines that. Hoping for the best that you'd see the truth in this.


                      Tyfyt
                      ---> Insert your denial here. <---

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Tallen View Post

                        Tyfyt
                        OK my friend....tyfyt as well.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Rockson View Post
                          (19) The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. (And now) -->But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Galatians 5:19,23

                          Do you see ANYTHING in verse 19 which speaks against what's on that video?
                          Yes..., I see something that is against what's in that video in verse 19.

                          DUNKENNESS

                          Sexual immorality? No! Impurity? No! Debauchery, idolatry, witchcraft? NO, NO, NO. So obviously you're blowing smoke.
                          Drunkenness? Yes! YES, YES, YES. So obviously your are ignoring all of that smoke that the Apostle was blowing.

                          Do you see that? Why did you stop short and not mention that, Rockson? So now we have two verses that speak against the video.

                          Drunkenness is, according to the Apostle, something that keeps people out of the kingdom of God.

                          And...,

                          Self-control being part of the fruit of the Spirit.

                          Tell me Rockson..., how does a display of drunkenness and a lack of self control justify Hagin and company according to scripture?

                          KEY POINT: You haven't established the actions of Hagin are caused by the Holy Spirit.

                          Still waiting.


                          BTW..., we haven't even scratched the sin that the wealthy wofist leaders have done to hoard their mammon!!!
                          Last edited by Tallen; 02-21-19, 06:53 PM.
                          ---> Insert your denial here. <---

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Rockson View Post

                            Yes but really what's your point. That is the reality they're dealing with. If they've grown up in that city and their roots are there, there church, their employment....what they've got to pick up and move two hours away?

                            And that's my point. How is someone I'll call it a Christian supposed to come up with not even the money for the house BUT also even a down payment? As we've said....you're talking about 40, 50, or 60K for a down payment of 10% and they're paying rent nearly the size of a mortgage. I mean I know what they answer is or can be. Look to God in simple faith (at that's with someone strongly devoted to the Lord) and yes just thank him for a house. As you know people do that today and what does some of the Christian community respond with? Oh you're one of those extreme people who believe God will just give one a house or a car or whatever else they have need of.

                            I'm sorry but you need to consider....that right there tells the tale of how you really are geared to think. You would say the answer is to get out of the city. What do you mean get out of the city? What if they grew up there, as I said their roots are there, their family, church, employment....do you really think God ever intended for his children to have to drive 2 hours to work in the morn....two hours back at night...wear themselves raged not to mention the high cost of fuel and maintenance on a car? Why? Because it's impossible for God to make it happen with every aspect of what it takes to live in a community? Because to just ask God for a house....is a selfish thing unreasonable thing and you'd be made fun of for being in the wof camp? And yet the scripture does say what it says...things like "Ask and you shall receive" Can't that work in the practical things of life?

                            Well so there you go. And you can't deny that's why some people and we can say many people leave the WOF. They prayed. It didn't happen or materialize. They get disillusioned. So then they feel justified in saying those clear verses of God willing to answer prayer can't be true. It doesn't work that way! I've tried it they might say and it didn't work! They've now allowed their experience to define truth and refuse to do two things, even consider that they missed it and that they may have to make adjustment and when someone even tries to talk to them they get offended. "Oh you're saying I may have lacked faith! Or you may be saying this or that! Insensitive person you are to even try to imply that maybe I missed it" So now you've approved of a class who aren't even open to receive instruction and consider that YES there might be a check list of things for me to examine and seeking God's wisdom until I get it on just where things didn't connect.

                            And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying, Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water. And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
                            Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting. Matt 17: 14,21


                            The disciples above were give the authority to do something. They tried using it. It didn't work. It didn't mean it wouldn't have worked if their spiritual state was more in line with God. Jesus didn't say to them, "Well you did your part and and never let it be said that I ever suggested that you might have failed. That of course would be most unloving and unkind!" But no Jesus didn't say that. He told them and revealed to them above just what the hindrance was......if they'd correct themselves and apply the fullness of what he'd teach them all would have been well. Today you're not allowed to do that though!

                            You're branded as a not so nice individuals who would even insinuate another has missed it. Now make no mistake about his. You can have someone in the flesh go off and do this and if they really don't have the love of God in their life they're they're merely a noisemakers. But I'm talking about someone who is full of God and his love who sits down with another and says, "Ok let's sit down here and have a look at this!" And above all things they lock into the verse in James which says if any man lacks wisdom let him ask of God....and God will provide it......and he stands with that person in agreement until the revealings come and understandings come.

                            And a house, and a reliable car, for a family is not greed. And a young Christian couple starting out shouldn't have to feel they've got to leave the town they've grown up in and you suggested Yoda two hours away. Interesting. Just this morning I was typing this out I see Fox News came out with this interesting article you might find interesting to read.The headline , "Millennial, baby boomer feel home ownership is harder now!"

                            https://www.foxnews.com/real-estate/...-is-harder-now

                            In it you'll see not only do they find it hard they consider it impossible

                            "But perhaps the most astounding: two in five millennials feel home ownership, in general, is completely out of the question for them.Not only that, 30 percent of millennials feel they have a better shot at landing a date with an A-list celebrity than ever owning a home."

                            Interestingly, nearly one in three millennials feel they will actually never be able to afford a down payment, and 27 percent say the only way they will ever home is through inheritance.


                            When it's got this bad that close to 30% feel the only time they'd own a home would be if somebody died well that's pretty sad A young starting off Christian couple that pretty much puts them in a place of despair. I say God does have a message for the younger generation and it's not that you're being selfish for actually asking and believing God for a home and for having positive expectations you can receive one in a reasonable length of time. God cares about every detail of our lives and if he cares about the birds of the air and the flowers of the field how much more does he want to bless his children with basic necessities of life? So say what one will about wof...at least they're providing scriptures of what God said he's willing to do on a very practical level so that people can have hope for a normal life.

                            .
                            I have read through this a couple of times. Your response is consistently a tug on emotions. If you grew up in an expensive town and you can't afford to buy a home or can't get a good paying job, or both, a move is a realistic choice. An hour to 90 minute drive is not that far... Let's not forget we have face time, e-mail, Facebook and so much more...

                            This whole believing God for a house is a fantasy for a huge majority of WOF. Very few will ever experience some miracle as described. Does God bless people? Sure... But, when it becomes a requirement for God to honor your faith in a tangible financial way., it is no longer faith.. True faith is reliance upon God, no matter his choice for our lives...

                            Romans 8:28 New King James Version (NKJV)

                            28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
                            Be light. Share The Gospel. Grow the Kingdom...

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Tallen View Post

                              Yes..., I see something that is against what's in that video in verse 19.

                              DUNKENNESS



                              Drunkenness? Yes! YES, YES, YES. So obviously your are ignoring all of that smoke that the Apostle was blowing.

                              Do you see that? Why did you stop short and not mention that, Rockson? So now we have two verses that speak against the video.

                              Drunkenness is, according to the Apostle, something that keeps people out of the kingdom of God.

                              Oh you came back after giving me one of your tyfyt close it ups? Well I guess Tallen I should say I'm honored and privileged.

                              I'm writing to readers and lurkers right now. I assess there's probably no hope the other side here will reconsider their position although I hope they will.

                              So to lurkers and other readers I ask....did I not mention drunkenness above? You can see I stated this, ---->"Paul didn't say anything about a spiritual manifestation of laughter or joy overwhelming one where they almost looked drunk as out of SELF CONTROL. REAL drunkenness he's talking about is about REAL alcohol and showing lack of restraint in so drinking it which would lead to the next horrible thing....orgies."

                              Being filled with the Spirit at times as God wills may or could take on an appearance like someone is drunk. What do we read in Acts 2:13-14 When the people saw the 120 at the Day of Pentecost filled with the spirit they thought of them as being drunk.

                              Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. Acts 13-15

                              S
                              o my opposition here implies anything that even has the appearance of being drunk....even though they're not drunk with worldly intoxication....well that's evil too because as he claims they're no in SELF-CONTROL. I say such an opinion runs contrary to the truth of scripture. You see if you go the direction that my good friend here does....than you've got to go all the way! That means any place where the scripture states where men's physical responses could look like someone drunk.....well that means it would have to be something the opposite of holy. But is it? Now look at this,

                              Acts 10:10 states the following about Peter "And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance" Peter in the trance had the vision of the clean/unclean animals which we won't get into here BUT he fell into a trance.

                              To fall.....not a spiritual manifestation of something that would make one look drunk that is...if they fell down? Well one might put forth that it doesn't have to mean they physically fell. OK I can buy that as a possibility although you can't say as an absolute that they didn't...from a physical perspective. To do so is mere bias! Other spiritual manifestations had men falling as well.....when they came to arrest Jesus in Gethsemane it says there was a manifestation of God's power released, "Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground. John 18:6 So a spiritual manifestation! They fell back to the ground! Not what someone drunk like might do?

                              But back to Acts 10:10 "And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance"

                              Trance! What is a trance? It's a state where you physical senses are somewhat suspended. Let's see what Strong's Concordance has to say,

                              Strong's Concordance
                              ekstasis: a displacement (of the mind), i.e. bewilderment, ecstasy
                              Original Word: ἔκστασις, εως, ἡ
                              Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
                              Transliteration: ekstasis
                              Phonetic Spelling: (ek'-stas-is)
                              Definition: a displacement (of the mind), bewilderment, ecstasy
                              Usage: (properly: distraction or disturbance of mind caused by shock), bewilderment, amazement; a trance.

                              https://biblehub.com/greek/1611.htm

                              So displacement of the mind...bewilderment...amazement......or ecstasy....so are we saying that if you saw somebody in such a state they wouldn't maybe look out of it.....like on a drug (drunk) And look at what the greek word for "trance" actually is! Ekstasis......in English guess what? It means ECSTASY!! So why do the drug people today call their thing by such a name? It's done because it puts one in a state of being out of it.

                              So "trance" "ekstasis" or ECSTASY in a spiritual sense wouldn't leave one looking or appearing that they're out of it? Drunk like or drugged?

                              Of course it would! So can one who appears as drugged, drunk or whatever term one wanted to use not be in a manifestation of God? Acts 10:10 clearly reveals it can be! So my challenger here would look at one in a trance and say they're out of control and that must be wrong? No the one who says it's wrong might be sincere but they indeed are the one who is truly mistaken. With all due respect I think they should stay with the scriptures! One looking like they're in a drug state, or drunk state can't be equated with being out of self-control in a spiritual way. If they're out of control with alcoholic intoxication yes that would be the case.

                              PEACE

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Rockson View Post


                                Oh you came back after giving me one of your tyfyt close it ups? Well I guess Tallen I should say I'm honored and privileged.

                                I'm writing to readers and lurkers right now. I assess there's probably no hope the other side here will reconsider their position although I hope they will.

                                So to lurkers and other readers I ask....did I not mention drunkenness above? You can see I stated this, ---->"Paul didn't say anything about a spiritual manifestation of laughter or joy overwhelming one where they almost looked drunk as out of SELF CONTROL. REAL drunkenness he's talking about is about REAL alcohol and showing lack of restraint in so drinking it which would lead to the next horrible thing....orgies."

                                Being filled with the Spirit at times as God wills may or could take on an appearance like someone is drunk. What do we read in Acts 2:13-14 When the people saw the 120 at the Day of Pentecost filled with the spirit they thought of them as being drunk.

                                Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. Acts 13-15

                                S
                                o my opposition here implies anything that even has the appearance of being drunk....even though they're not drunk with worldly intoxication....well that's evil too because as he claims they're no in SELF-CONTROL. I say such an opinion runs contrary to the truth of scripture. You see if you go the direction that my good friend here does....than you've got to go all the way! That means any place where the scripture states where men's physical responses could look like someone drunk.....well that means it would have to be something the opposite of holy. But is it? Now look at this,

                                Acts 10:10 states the following about Peter "And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance" Peter in the trance had the vision of the clean/unclean animals which we won't get into here BUT he fell into a trance.

                                To fall.....not a spiritual manifestation of something that would make one look drunk that is...if they fell down? Well one might put forth that it doesn't have to mean they physically fell. OK I can buy that as a possibility although you can't say as an absolute that they didn't...from a physical perspective. To do so is mere bias! Other spiritual manifestations had men falling as well.....when they came to arrest Jesus in Gethsemane it says there was a manifestation of God's power released, "Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground. John 18:6 So a spiritual manifestation! They fell back to the ground! Not what someone drunk like might do?

                                But back to Acts 10:10 "And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance"

                                Trance! What is a trance? It's a state where you physical senses are somewhat suspended. Let's see what Strong's Concordance has to say,

                                Strong's Concordance
                                ekstasis: a displacement (of the mind), i.e. bewilderment, ecstasy
                                Original Word: ἔκστασις, εως, ἡ
                                Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
                                Transliteration: ekstasis
                                Phonetic Spelling: (ek'-stas-is)
                                Definition: a displacement (of the mind), bewilderment, ecstasy
                                Usage: (properly: distraction or disturbance of mind caused by shock), bewilderment, amazement; a trance.

                                https://biblehub.com/greek/1611.htm

                                So displacement of the mind...bewilderment...amazement......or ecstasy....so are we saying that if you saw somebody in such a state they wouldn't maybe look out of it.....like on a drug (drunk) And look at what the greek word for "trance" actually is! Ekstasis......in English guess what? It means ECSTASY!! So why do the drug people today call their thing by such a name? It's done because it puts one in a state of being out of it.

                                So "trance" "ekstasis" or ECSTASY in a spiritual sense wouldn't leave one looking or appearing that they're out of it? Drunk like or drugged?

                                Of course it would! So can one who appears as drugged, drunk or whatever term one wanted to use not be in a manifestation of God? Acts 10:10 clearly reveals it can be! So my challenger here would look at one in a trance and say they're out of control and that must be wrong? No the one who says it's wrong might be sincere but they indeed are the one who is truly mistaken. With all due respect I think they should stay with the scriptures! One looking like they're in a drug state, or drunk state can't be equated with being out of self-control in a spiritual way. If they're out of control with alcoholic intoxication yes that would be the case.

                                PEACE
                                Thanks for once again showing us, including the lurkers, how your are reading into scripture, Rockson.

                                tyfyt
                                ---> Insert your denial here. <---

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