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  • #76
    Originally posted by Tolpuddlematyr View Post
    Of course it is.
    ok so it cant be the potential human being you claimed it was.
    Just as every oak tree has been through an acorn stage in its development.
    Correct, but the acorn is the word for the seed.
    This doesn't make an acorn to be an oak tree.
    The acorn is the word for the tree's development stage, it doesnt mean its another type of tree or a bus or something. The acorn is the oak tree at seed stage, yes or no? If yes its the oak tree

    Every human being was once a foetus.
    Not really, every human being goes through a foetal stage. The adult, the child, the foetus are just words to describe the human being at various stages of development. You refer to the human being at foetal stage as a foetus to try and pretend its not a human being at that stage. That is the deception of your pro-choice position.

    A foetus becomes a human being once it is born.
    Impossible if the human being goes through a foetal stage, the human being cant become what it already is.

    The definition of human being is human, born, alive.
    broader than that and has explained to you https://www.thefreedictionary.com/human+beings, Its the entity that is the same, namely, it was you in your mother's womb at the stage of your development one calls foetal.

    Schoolchildren understand this. Why can't you?
    Schoolchildren understand this why dont you?

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by brightmorningstar View Post
      ok so it cant be the potential human being you claimed it was.
      Why not? Your conclusion is faulty. Motor cars pass through an iron ore stage. That doesn't mean that calling iron ore destined for the car market a motor car is anything but stupid.

      The acorn is the word for the tree's development stage, it doesnt mean its another type of tree or a bus or something. The acorn is the oak tree at seed stage, yes or no? If yes its the oak tree
      . Another insanely stupid argument. Nelson's navy was not made from acorns. Charles 2nd didn't hide from Cromwell's army in an acorn. There are no pubs called "The Royal Acorn". If you really cannot tell the difference between an acorn and and oak tree, then you need to get out of the urban basement and get some therapy. The same applies if you cannot tell the difference between a foetus and a person.

      Not really, every human being goes through a foetal stage. The adult, the child, the foetus are just words to describe the human being at various stages of development. You refer to the human being at foetal stage as a foetus to try and pretend its not a human being at that stage. That is the deception of your pro-choice position.
      , No, this is a lie. You really should try to stop lying about what other people say. At no time have I, or anyone else suggested that the foetus is not human. If you want to call a human being the biological entity that embodies all stages of life, then yes, a foetus is a human being. What you are then trying to do is change the definition to make the human being the person who has human rights, treated as an individual by society. The foetus does not and never will meet this definition. Personally, I try to avoid using the confusing term human being and instead refer to foetus and person, because it is clearer. Because for you any clarity spells defeat to your argument, you continue to wallow in the mud of your own making. You are fooling nobody.

      Impossible if the human being goes through a foetal stage, the human being cant become what it already is.
      Logic is not your strong point. That every human being was at one time a foetus, does not mean that the two states were contemporaneous. Clean dishes go through a stage of being dirty, then cleaned in the dishwasher to emerge as clean dishes. They go through a dirty dishes stage. They are not clean dishes until after they are washed. Human beings go through a foetal stage. They are not human beings until they are born.

      broader than that and has explained to you https://www.thefreedictionary.com/human+beings, Its the entity that is the same, namely, it was you in your mother's womb at the stage of your development one calls foetal.
      Why should your definition be more acceptable than mine? You are trying to use the label to define the object. Reality works the other way. I don't care what you call a foetus, it remains a foetus, without rights, lawfully killed in abortions.

      Your belief in Julius Caesar proves the existence of God.
      CARM poster

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Tolpuddlematyr View Post
        Why not?
        Because as you agreed yourself, we as human beings have all have been through a foetal stage of our development in our mother's womb so we cant become what we already are. Unless you are saying you arent who you claim to be, which is an insanely stupid argument.

        The same applies if you cannot tell the difference between a foetus and a person.
        No I cant since the foetus is an early stage of the person's life when they were in the womb. I can tell the difference between the person's stages of life such as foetus and baby.

        , No, this is a lie. You really should try to stop lying about what other people say. At no time have I, or anyone else suggested that the foetus is not human.
        At no time have I suggested you did or that was my argument. Happy for you to address my argument but I am not happy for you to accuse me of your made up stuff. The point you said of course to was that every human being goes through a foetal stage. The adult, the child, the foetus are just words to describe the human being at various stages of development.

        If you want to call a human being the biological entity that embodies all stages of life,
        How can it not be since you said 'of course' to every human going through a foetal stage of their life. How can a stage of a human being's life not be embodied?

        That every human being was at one time a foetus, does not mean that the two states were contemporaneous.
        No-one suggested they were.
        Human beings go through a foetal stage. They are not human beings until they are born.
        One can not be the human being that goes through the foetal stage to which you said 'of course' they do. You are talking complete and utter rubbish.


        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Tolpuddlematyr View Post
          Why not?
          What do you mean 'why not?' How can you have the potential to be yourself? Its nonsense.
          Your conclusion is faulty.
          How? How can one have the potential to be oneself when one is already oneself?

          NB motor cars don't pass through an iron ore stage. What on earth are you talking about. Iron ore made into steal is a material used in the manufacture of a car, but steal can be used for things other than the car unlike a human ova which can only lead to a human being when union with a human sperm and then the human being's life starts and goes through zygote, embryo and foetal stages in the womb.

          . Another insanely stupid argument. Nelson's navy was not made from acorns.
          no-one said it was. The insane argument is all yours. The acorn is the oak tree at seed stage, Nelson's fleet was made of oak wood, the acorn was how the tree's life started developing.

          Why should your definition be more acceptable than mine?
          Because the definition I provided encompassed yours which was a part of it only. So are you saying it was not you in your mother's womb at the stage of your development one calls foetal.? Yes or no.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by brightmorningstar View Post
            Because as you agreed yourself, we as human beings have all have been through a foetal stage of our development in our mother's womb so we cant become what we already are. Unless you are saying you arent who you claim to be, which is an insanely stupid argument.

            No I cant since the foetus is an early stage of the person's life when they were in the womb. I can tell the difference between the person's stages of life such as foetus and baby.

            At no time have I suggested you did or that was my argument. Happy for you to address my argument but I am not happy for you to accuse me of your made up stuff. The point you said of course to was that every human being goes through a foetal stage. The adult, the child, the foetus are just words to describe the human being at various stages of development.

            How can it not be since you said 'of course' to every human going through a foetal stage of their life. How can a stage of a human being's life not be embodied?

            No-one suggested they were.
            One can not be the human being that goes through the foetal stage to which you said 'of course' they do. You are talking complete and utter rubbish.

            You are married. You went through a stage when you were single. Were you the same entity when you were single?

            Of course.

            Were you married when you were single?

            Of course not.

            ...................
            ​​​
            You are a person. You went through a foetal stage. Were you the same entity when you were a foetus?

            Of course.

            Were you a person when you were a foetus?

            Of course not.

            This really isn't rocket science. You should be embarrassed by your failure to grasp this concept, but feel free to continue amusing us all.
            Your belief in Julius Caesar proves the existence of God.
            CARM poster

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by brightmorningstar View Post
              Because the definition I provided encompassed yours which was a part of it only. So are you saying it was not you in your mother's womb at the stage of your development one calls foetal.? Yes or no.
              It was the entity that became me, not me at all. I, as a person, as an individual with rights, with a name, a nationality, a class; did not exist until I was born. The entity with my DNA, my sex, my biological profile; is what was in the womb. Your inability to differentiate doesn't mean that there is no difference.

              Your belief in Julius Caesar proves the existence of God.
              CARM poster

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Tolpuddlematyr View Post
                You are married. You went through a stage when you were single. Were you the same entity when you were single?
                No I was a double decker bus no #47 from Walthamstow to Neesden. Of course I was the same entity, it was me with all my DNA, just a different time of my life. Were you the same entity in that respect when you were a child or were you someone or something different.?
                Last edited by brightmorningstar; 02-22-19, 03:31 AM.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Tolpuddlematyr View Post
                  It was the entity that became me, not me at all.
                  So who or what was it then? Your response doesnt make sense. You said 'of course' to every human being goes through a foetal stage, so you acknowledge it was a human being in your mother's womb but not you.

                  The truth is it was scientifically observably you, and you you cant see it. That is some serious delusion.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by brightmorningstar View Post
                    No I was a double decker bus no #47 from Walthamstow to Neesden. Of course I was the same entity, it was me with all my DNA, just a different time of my life. Were you the same entity in that respect when you were a child or were you someone or something different.?
                    Did you actually read my post? Your failed attempt at sarcasm over the point that we agree on is meant to show what? Your failed attempt to address the point that we don't agree on is just what we would expect. Try again.
                    Originally posted by Tolpuddlematyr View Post
                    You are married. You went through a stage when you were single. Were you the same entity when you were single?

                    Of course.

                    Were you married when you were single?

                    Of course not.

                    ...................
                    ​​​
                    You are a person. You went through a foetal stage. Were you the same entity when you were a foetus?

                    Of course.

                    Were you a person when you were a foetus?

                    Of course not.

                    This really isn't rocket science. You should be embarrassed by your failure to grasp this concept, but feel free to continue amusing us all.

                    Your belief in Julius Caesar proves the existence of God.
                    CARM poster

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by brightmorningstar View Post
                      So who or what was it then? Your response doesnt make sense. You said 'of course' to every human being goes through a foetal stage, so you acknowledge it was a human being in your mother's womb but not you.

                      The truth is it was scientifically observably you, and you you cant see it. That is some serious delusion.
                      Nope. You are embarrassing yourself now. Going through a stage implies change. That is the whole point.

                      Every elite footballer goes through a stage of being a beginner. Does that make every beginner an elite footballer? Of course not. Many beginners either leave of their own accord or are kicked out as no good or not wanted. Every beginner has the potential to make it but not all do.

                      Every human being, every person, goes through a stage of being a foetus. Does that make every foetus a person? Of course not. Many foetuses fail for natural reasons or are removed through abortion. Every foetus has the potential to become a person, but not all do so.

                      Your spurious claims about what is scientifically observable merely emphasise your failure to grasp the simple concept that things that change, do not remain the same.
                      Your belief in Julius Caesar proves the existence of God.
                      CARM poster

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Tolpuddlematyr View Post
                        Did you actually read my post? Your failed attempt at sarcasm over the point that we agree on is meant to show what? Your failed attempt to address the point that we don't agree on is just what we would expect. Try again.
                        Yes I read your post. I was me when I was single and I am me now I am married. I am the same entity, me.
                        Did you read my post? My status as married as opposed to single has changed but as an entity I am still me. https://www.thefreedictionary.com/entity I still exist as a particular and discrete unit, my existence and being remains.
                        Yes I read your post and you didnt read mine. Address it now.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Tolpuddlematyr View Post
                          Nope. You are embarrassing yourself now. Going through a stage implies change. That is the whole point.
                          Tol , everyone is already telling you this over and over again. What they are telling you is that YOU changed through YOUR development life stages so at the foetal stage of YOUR life as a human being it was YOU who would have been killed by pro-choice abortion. That is the whole point.

                          Every human being, every person, goes through a stage of being a foetus.
                          Correct. So since it is the human being goes through that stage one cant say they had the potential to become a human being.
                          Does that make every foetus a person?
                          Yes. Foetus is just the word for the person at that stage of their lives. What is the foetus if not the person at that stage of their life.

                          Your spurious claims about what is scientifically observable merely emphasise your failure to grasp the simple concept that things that change, do not remain the same.
                          no, you need to tell us how a human being at foetal stage has the potential to become the human being they already are at foetal stage. Your are talking nonsense. The Human being at foetal stage has no potential to become anything since it already is a human being at foetal stage.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by brightmorningstar View Post
                            Yes I read your post. I was me when I was single and I am me now I am married. I am the same entity, me.
                            Did you read my post? My status as married as opposed to single has changed but as an entity I am still me. https://www.thefreedictionary.com/entity I still exist as a particular and discrete unit, my existence and being remains.
                            Yes I read your post and you didnt read mine. Address it now.



                            Amusing though it has been for me to keep thinking up different analogies that illustrate while you are wrong, it is time to progress the discussion and I am taking the unusual step of starting with what we agree on.


                            Firstly, we can agree that there is a continuity to the normal human life cycle. The same organism, with the same DNA, passing through all the different stages of life, changing in nature but remaining the same entity.


                            I think that we can also agree that many changes occur during the human lifespan, from conception to grave, some subtle, some profound, some gradual some sudden. All this is normal, biological development and change.


                            I would also hope that we can agree that not all the traits of a human being are determined by biology, but by the circumstances in which you are born. Whether you get the vote and at what age, whether you will have access to alcohol or be permitted to marry someone your own sex, even your likely religion and politics, will all be determined or influenced by your place and time of birth, not your biology.


                            Finally, I think we can agree in the existence, if not the origins, of what is variously called human rights, or personhood. I will call it personhood for brevity, defined as the right to be treated decently, with dignity and with equal value to others with the same rights. If you wish to define this property differently, then do so. I don't think that the nature of this set of rights is in dispute, but its origin and scope.


                            Your position, I believe, is that what I call personhood is inherent in being human, whatever stage of life that human entity is. That it is embedded in the DNA of humanity.


                            My position is that personhood is like voting, drinking alcohol and same sex marriage: a right that is granted, if it is granted at all, by the laws and customs of the society into which one is born. Therefore if we wish to continue this discussion, we should concentrate on this area of difference, explain why our particular positions are more reasonable and home in on the areas where compromise is impossible. I have my doubts whether you are up for this, but I make the offer in good faith. Any other posters who have endured the exchanges thus far are also welcome to comment.
                            Your belief in Julius Caesar proves the existence of God.
                            CARM poster

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Tolpuddlematyr View Post


                              Amusing though it has been for me to keep thinking up different analogies that illustrate while you are wrong, it is time to progress the discussion and I am taking the unusual step of starting with what we agree on.


                              Firstly, we can agree that there is a continuity to the normal human life cycle. The same organism, with the same DNA, passing through all the different stages of life, changing in nature but remaining the same entity.


                              I think that we can also agree that many changes occur during the human lifespan, from conception to grave, some subtle, some profound, some gradual some sudden. All this is normal, biological development and change.


                              I would also hope that we can agree that not all the traits of a human being are determined by biology, but by the circumstances in which you are born. Whether you get the vote and at what age, whether you will have access to alcohol or be permitted to marry someone your own sex, even your likely religion and politics, will all be determined or influenced by your place and time of birth, not your biology.


                              Finally, I think we can agree in the existence, if not the origins, of what is variously called human rights, or personhood. I will call it personhood for brevity, defined as the right to be treated decently, with dignity and with equal value to others with the same rights. If you wish to define this property differently, then do so. I don't think that the nature of this set of rights is in dispute, but its origin and scope.


                              Your position, I believe, is that what I call personhood is inherent in being human, whatever stage of life that human entity is. That it is embedded in the DNA of humanity.


                              My position is that personhood is like voting, drinking alcohol and same sex marriage: a right that is granted, if it is granted at all, by the laws and customs of the society into which one is born. Therefore if we wish to continue this discussion, we should concentrate on this area of difference, explain why our particular positions are more reasonable and home in on the areas where compromise is impossible. I have my doubts whether you are up for this, but I make the offer in good faith. Any other posters who have endured the exchanges thus far are also welcome to comment.
                              Ok so yes the foetus is just the word for the person at that stage of their lives.

                              nb I do not consider the right of a person to vote as a trait of a human being.

                              furthermore this means as I said before, the homosexual in Iran is as much of a valuable human being as the unborn human being in the womb. I see you dont agree for your reasons any more than muslims in Iran agree for theirs. A plague on both your ideologies.
                              Last edited by brightmorningstar; 02-22-19, 03:43 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by brightmorningstar View Post
                                Your waffle is the least interesting garbage on the planet. I have asked you yes/no questions and you havent havent even addressed the points let alone answered yes or no.
                                Talking around the points and questions put to you just shows everyone you are unwilling to debate and unwilling to learn from your exposed errors.

                                I suggest you take take your own advice and cease the monologue you call discussion.
                                The only ones who think that abortion can be discussed using yes/no answers are the sheep from Animal Farm. And you.
                                Your belief in Julius Caesar proves the existence of God.
                                CARM poster

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